Gilmore traded to Carolina

[Tottie]

Patriots fans have laughed at teams like the Redskins and Dolphins for years because they go out and spend a fortune in free agency then never win anything. Somehow we thought it would be different around here and so far outside of Judon most of the new additions have been busts.

There's still time for the TEs but so far we are throwing 5 yard passes to receivers. That could change and we could start to better use them but even if we do the point is still valid. If you get a chance to sign a Kittle that's one thing but to bring in these 2 guys at top5 salary is just curious.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Thuney got paid a lot (16/per) - second highest in the league. Is he in that elite company? Yeah, I think he is - Scherff, Nelson at the top, then Thuney with a few others in second tier.

If you think the contracts between Thuney and the 2 TEs are remotely similar, please look again.

KC was desperate after the SB and they paid top dollar with 47 million guaranteed for 5 years, but really, more likely for 3
(Smith and Henry combined are just 7million more than that, for a solid 7 years of playing time between the two. No funny years.

KC can cut Thuney after 3 years and eat $10m in dead CAP, or keep him and absorb just under $20m per year against their cap in years 4 and 5 when he's 31 and 32 years old. The contracts for the TEs both end before they're 30.

Will Thuney be worth almost $20 million/year in his 30's in 24 and 25? Maybe he will, but if so, the CAP is through the roof compared to now, right?

Thuney got a rare contract.

The two TEs New England got are 4th and 5th in salary, but the guys behind them are either on rookie deals, signed a long time ago, or aging vets serving as placeholders. There aren't a lot of good TEs and the drop off after the first few is enormous. Watch the paydays any of the good TEs behind these two start commanding as they come off their rookie deals. The outlier is Darren Waller, who did nothing his first 3 years in the league - I expect him to renegotiate soon enough.

KS was desperate for an OL. New England was desperate for skill position players.


I went back and looked at the FA threads this year. Almost all of the complaints on the Jonnu Smith board were "I wanted Henry."

After Henry, the number of people complaining were few and far between. Didn't see much from you there. Not saying you didn't complain, but maybe you can point me to the posts.

You and I have been going back and forth about this during the offseason, so you know this isn’t hindsight…I found a couple that I specifically remembered. I didn’t post much in the rah rah FA signing threads in March but made my thoughts clear frequently throughout the offseason about the terrible FA value.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Interesting if this trade were to have happened...

 

[50-yard-line]

You typed a whole bunch of stuff to basically say KC overpaid Thuney and we didn't overpay the TE's. Thuney by all accounts is playing well while the TE's we paid aren't. I would rather overpay for a good player than overpay for two average to bad players.

I said that Thuney's deal wasn't remotely like the deals given to Smith and Henry, and it wasn't. It's listed as $80million over 5 years, but it's really more like $51.5 over 3 years. I didn't make that up, and didn't say they overpaid - in fact, I said that if I were in their situation, I'd have done it.

Just as I would have paid for Henry and Smith in New England. I, and pretty much everyone else, though the OL would remain strong for New England (Captain Stone was about the only one ringing alarm bells, and that includes all the national "experts") It was pretty clear to me - not to you, really? - that the biggest Offensive weakness was in skill players.

And neither Smith nor Henry are "bad" players. That's nonsense.

"Thuney got paid. Wow.
Still think it's a good move for the Chiefs. Their OL is decimated right now and Thuney is top-shelf."
That's ME in the Thuney signing thread.
Also me: "The Pats were apparently in on Thuney to the end, so I'd say that their plan was keep him, keep him, keep him...but it didn't work out."

Thuney signed the day before the Pats went and got Smith, then Henry the next day. They wanted him back but wouldn't outdo that contract.

Page 32-33:
"A starting caliber Tight End! I love it" (Sound familiar? - that's your first post in the Jonnu Smith signing thread.)

And you were the first one to respond in the Hunter Henry signing thread with a "truly satisfied" GIF.

Maybe if you want to keep your clown show going, you should ask Ian to cut the archive to about 5 pages.

 

[203Pat]

I said that Thuney's deal wasn't remotely like the deals given to Smith and Henry, and it wasn't. It's listed as $80million over 5 years, but it's really more like $51.5 over 3 years. I didn't make that up, and didn't say they overpaid - in fact, I said that if I were in their situation, I'd have done it.

Just as I would have paid for Henry and Smith in New England. I, and pretty much everyone else, though the OL would remain strong for New England (Captain Stone was about the only one ringing alarm bells, and that includes all the national "experts") It was pretty clear to me - not to you, really? - that the biggest Offensive weakness was in skill players.

And neither Smith nor Henry are "bad" players. That's nonsense.

"Thuney got paid. Wow.
Still think it's a good move for the Chiefs. Their OL is decimated right now and Thuney is top-shelf."
That's ME in the Thuney signing thread.
Also me: "The Pats were apparently in on Thuney to the end, so I'd say that their plan was keep him, keep him, keep him...but it didn't work out."

Thuney signed the day before the Pats went and got Smith, then Henry the next day. They wanted him back but wouldn't outdo that contract.

Page 32-33:
"A starting caliber Tight End! I love it" (Sound familiar? - that's your first post in the Jonnu Smith signing thread.)

And you were the first one to respond in the Hunter Henry signing thread with a "truly satisfied" GIF.

Maybe if you want to keep your clown show going, you should ask Ian to cut the archive to about 5 pages.

I don't know what you're even mad about at this point. I was among the many that thought the offensive line would be a strength and that we could just slide Onwenu in at LG and be fine. My point about the hindsight was that they never should have franchised Thuney in 2020 because most assumed that would be a lost year and we would at least get a comp pick. Now we likely won't. Also not hindsight, I wanted to trade Gilmore last year before the deadline. Pretty sure we could've gotten more than a 6th round pick. I have no idea how Thuney's contract really factors into either of my points.

I also wasn't mad when we signed we signed these TE's because at least they're NFL caliber tight ends. I definitely thought they would make more of an impact but so far they have been average at best. Once again my point was about how you called KC desperate for outbidding for Thuney's services. In the post in question you did not mention anything about any desperation on the part of Bill paying the TE's. So basically my comment was, why is it desperate when other teams spend money on positions of need but not when the Patriots do?

Get as mad as you want but I see you calling KC desperate right below.

I said earlier that BB's gambits with Thuney and Gilmore didn't pan out. I know he wanted to keep Thuney - he loved Thuney. But he's got his price-point and a desperate KC (After that last Superbowl) outbid him. I think he wanted to extend Gilmore, but didn't anticipate the injury and now the holdout.

Shrug.

He could have sacrificed a lot more draft capital than either of them would have brought - Thuney none, but $14 million more $, Gilmore maybe what? A third, even a second? - in trading up in the draft to number 11 and taking Fields. So, if he had done that, getting more CAP and a second round pick, then trading a couple of future 1sts, or a first next year and a second the year after, and traded up in Round 1 this year (as so many here were screaming for), is he a better or worse GM?

Win some, lose some.

Look at the Lions and Collins (and oh my god, they better not hand this team to Patricia!), or the Cowboys and Smith - or any number of transactions all over the league where teams are eating money and losing players. Last year, the Ravens franchised Judon for $16 million, didn't go deep in the playoffs, and lost him to the Pats for 14/per for 4. Was that a blunder?

To be clear, I agree that both Thuney and Gilmore wound up being mistakes. I'm just saying that the fans of any and every team in the league could make these same complaints year after year. Hindsight is easy.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

2 straight years of huge dead cap hits is starting to look like bad front office planning.

ziegler is in way over his head.

.

 

[50-yard-line]

I don't know what you're even mad about at this point. I was among the many that thought the offensive line would be a strength and that we could just slide Onwenu in at LG and be fine. My point about the hindsight was that they never should have franchised Thuney in 2020 because most assumed that would be a lost year and we would at least get a comp pick. Now we likely won't. Also not hindsight, I wanted to trade Gilmore last year before the deadline. Pretty sure we could've gotten more than a 6th round pick. I have no idea how Thuney's contract really factors into either of my points.

I also wasn't mad when we signed we signed these TE's because at least they're NFL caliber tight ends. I definitely thought they would make more of an impact but so far they have been average at best. Once again my point was about how you called KC desperate for outbidding for Thuney's services. In the post in question you did not mention anything about any desperation on the part of Bill paying the TE's. So basically my comment was, why is it desperate when other teams spend money on positions of need but not when the Patriots do?

Get as mad as you want but I see you calling KC desperate right below.

I'm not mad at all.

And yes, KC was desperate - as BB was for skill players (and in going after Smith AND Henry right after losing Thuney).

I'm really not mad at all about the Pats. I love the way this team is constructed and think they're going to get much better in short order. I really do. not sure what's going on with that OL, though - is it coaching? because the errors are so out of character for a New England OL, with many of the same damned players.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

2 straight years of huge dead cap hits is starting to look like bad front office planning.

ziegler is in way over his head.

.

With respect to Gilmore, Chung, and Newton, yes.

 

[203Pat]

I'm not mad at all.

And yes, KC was desperate - as BB was for skill players (and in going after Smith AND Henry right after losing Thuney).

I'm really not mad at all about the Pats. I love the way this team is constructed and think they're going to get much better in short order. I really do. not sure what's going on with that OL, though - is it coaching? because the errors are so out of character for a New England OL, with many of the same damned players.

I wouldn't say I am "mad" as in real life mad about the Pats but some of the moves, coaching, and things going on around the team have made me mad in a fan sense. It was fun rolling out of bed to 12 wins a year for two decades and obviously this is a team in transition right now but there have been some real head scratchers lately. Not just roster moves but like you mentioned the offensive line. I don't know what the hell happened. Mason, and Andrews have been very good players for quite a few years and while Wynn was never a superstar he was a solid starter at LT and so far all three have underperformed. I am hoping that they get it fixed ASAP because allowing Mac more time to get the ball out can make those TE and receiver contracts look like they're worth it.

 

[JMC00]

Captain Stone was about the only one ringing alarm bells,

Ya I wouldn't give him credit for that, every year he complains about the OL, complains when they sign one in FA, complains when they draft one and does his armchair OL coach/GM stuff about who he would have signed/drafted instead. Complains even when the OL is good and will pick his spots like if they have a bad game in pass blocking or running blocking but are good the other 5 games around it. Same guy that said Pats were dumb for drafting Thuney or Le'Raven Clark

 

[50-yard-line]

I wouldn't say I am "mad" as in real life mad about the Pats but some of the moves, coaching, and things going on around the team have made me mad in a fan sense. It was fun rolling out of bed to 12 wins a year for two decades and obviously this is a team in transition right now but there have been some real head scratchers lately. Not just roster moves but like you mentioned the offensive line. I don't know what the hell happened. Mason, and Andrews have been very good players for quite a few years and while Wynn was never a superstar he was a solid starter at LT and so far all three have underperformed. I am hoping that they get it fixed ASAP because allowing Mac more time to get the ball out can make those TE and receiver contracts look like they're worth it.

But these things happen to almost every team all the time. Again, KC - 4th in dead money last year. Frank Clark for 5/105? really? And look at some of the contracts they've got now.

Lions eat it for Stafford...pay for Collins to be here.

When you look at the boards for other teams, particularly those who aren't on top, you'll see the same complaints about asset management and about the OC.

BB mistakes? Oh yeah - Thuney, Gilmore, Michel (if they're not using Stevenson and Taylor, trading him was a mistake, sorry). Drafting Harry looks pretty damned bad. Williams over Metcalf? Ouch.

So yeah, I get it, and I get the frustration. But again, I think this team is built to win, with THREE problems: OL execution, not talent, and two stemming from that: the inability to run and not finishing drives.

Notice that they finished a couple of drives last week when Mac finally threw intot he end zone - one to Henry, one to Smith. How'd that work out?

 

[203Pat]

But these things happen to almost every team all the time. Again, KC - 4th in dead money last year. Frank Clark for 5/105? really? And look at some of the contracts they've got now.

Lions eat it for Stafford...pay for Collins to be here.

When you look at the boards for other teams, particularly those who aren't on top, you'll see the same complaints about asset management and about the OC.

BB mistakes? Oh yeah - Thuney, Gilmore, Michel (if they're not using Stevenson and Taylor, trading him was a mistake, sorry). Drafting Harry looks pretty damned bad. Williams over Metcalf? Ouch.

So yeah, I get it, and I get the frustration. But again, I think this team is built to win, with THREE problems: OL execution, not talent, and two stemming from that: the inability to run and not finishing drives.

Notice that they finished a couple of drives last week when Mac finally threw intot he end zone - one to Henry, one to Smith. How'd that work out?

I was so happy to see them let Mac throw down in the red zone. Mac really performed well considering we had the least amount of rushing yards in a game since 1943. Also good to see the TE's get involved down there as I assume that's a large part of the reason they were brought in. I am just at the point where I am not sure what the objective is going forward this season. Are we throwing in the towel on 2021 and assuming it's a learning year for Mac since we dumped off our best defensive player or are we still trying to push for the playoffs and bringing in depth at LB with Collins? If we lose 2-3 more games over the next month I would hope we see less Hightower and Van Noy and more Uche, Wino, and maybe even Perkins.

 

[50-yard-line]

I was so happy to see them let Mac throw down in the red zone. Mac really performed well considering we had the least amount of rushing yards in a game since 1943. Also good to see the TE's get involved down there as I assume that's a large part of the reason they were brought in. I am just at the point where I am not sure what the objective is going forward this season. Are we throwing in the towel on 2021 and assuming it's a learning year for Mac since we dumped off our best defensive player or are we still trying to push for the playoffs and bringing in depth at LB with Collins? If we lose 2-3 more games over the next month I would hope we see less Hightower and Van Noy and more Uche, Wino, and maybe even Perkins.

I don't know where they are. I know Mac said he was the one who changed the play for the Bolden red zone run(s). Maybe he's just getting more comfortable. If they start finishing those droves with 7 in stead of 3, their defense is good enough to put them in the Wildcard race, I believe.

 

[captain stone]

Nobody is firing Bill, that I can guarantee you.

Even when he deserves to be fired?

 

[jlu52]

Even when he deserves to be fired?

Who would you hire, my friend? Believe me, Bill has pissed me off many times over the years, but he has done exponentially better than every coach in the salary cap era, and it truly isn't all because the the inarguable GOAT. Anyone who thinks that is insulting each and every Patriot who has contributed greatly to each and every winning season, Division, Conference, and NFL championship. I don't even have enough time in my life to mention each and every clutch performer who has contributed. It ain't about one player or coach, but the entire 53, coaches, and yes, even Bobby Kraft.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Even when he deserves to be fired?

Only way i would consider firing Bill if another two seasons goes by and we aren't winning football games. Four losing seasons wouldnt tell me Belichick sucks. It would just tell me his culture broke.

 

[StockingAnarchyNumber12]

Who would you hire, my friend? Believe me, Bill has pissed me off many times over the years, but he has done exponentially better than every coach in the salary cap era, and it truly isn't all because the the inarguable GOAT. Anyone who thinks that is insulting each and every Patriot who has contributed greatly to each and every winning season, Division, Conference, and NFL championship. I don't even have enough time in my life to mention each and every clutch performer who has contributed. It ain't about one player or coach, but the entire 53, coaches, and yes, even Bobby Kraft.

I agree Bill is great.

However sometimes even the best eventually need to be replaced. The person after Bill will not be a better coach, but the new coach can provide a new culture. If we have four straight losing seasons (big if) then maybe its time.

 

[jlu52]

I agree Bill is great.

However sometimes even the best eventually need to be replaced. The person after Bill will not be a better coach, but the new coach can provide a new culture. If we have four straight losing seasons (big if) then maybe its time.

I agree, perhaps the end is coming soon. I abhorred losing Tom, still pissed, can't stand him wearing another uniform, but we have had 1 losing season in 20 years, and it amazes me how many folks are ****ting on him. It is what it is, Bill ain't a warm, fuzzy fellow, he keeps not drafting my binkies, and lets go of some of my favorite players, he pisses off players, other teams, and fans on a regular basis. But he's done an overall remarkable job. Let's see if he can help get this team on track, in the next year or 2. If not, it's time to retire on the Cape, with his girlfriend and Nike

 

[50-yard-line]

Even when he deserves to be fired?

You seem a little manic-depressive today...all laughter and tears.

Was it because I said something nice about you?

 

[TheRainMaker]

If Mac gets injured due to the O line, it will be the beginning of the end for Bill. If Tom Brady isn't off limits, Bill shouldn't be either.

Bob will eventually talk to Bill and give Bill the option to step down on his own if we see a losing season this year and next.

The way this Gilmore situation played out was horrendous.