Evaluating the 1 year "prove it" deals from the past season

[RayClay]

No - but I'd definately say Moss and and our offense would have benefited from having someone else, aside from Moss who could keep defenses honest. With Moss and only Moss as a deep WR, DBs could key on Moss and only Moss for thier deep coverage.

It's in our best interest to have someone else who concerns DBs as a deep receiver. I'm not talking about a ton of deep catches. Just enough so DBs know if they double and triple cover Moss they'll be burned by someone else deep.

We never had that this season. We thought we did in Stallworth - and I think DCs did too at the beginning of the season - and indeed there was at least one game (Dallas) where I think Stallworth did in fact did burn DBs when they were too focused on shutting Moss down. But while Stallworth was guy who was a consistent deep threat concern in Philly (even with limited games and only 38 receptions) that wasn't how he was used here.

So I do hope that Jackson can do what Stallworth couldn't next season - i.e. be a consistent enough deep threat for DCs to know that too much coverage on Moss will leave them vulnerable on the other side of the field.

Rather than sending two receivers deep every play, only requiring an extra deep zone defender, having a smart mid range receiver who can alter his route keeping communication with the qb while running slants and sideline routes stretches the defense more IMO.

If two receivers run deep, it takes a lot of time and makes it easier for the defense to decide coverage, (deep safeties without doubt).

 

[unoriginal]

If two receivers run deep, it takes a lot of time and makes it easier for the defense to decide coverage, (deep safeties without doubt).

Not in Madden it don't! Go routes are always money.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Rather than sending two receivers deep every play, only requiring an extra deep zone defender, having a smart mid range receiver who can alter his route keeping communication with the qb while running slants and sideline routes stretches the defense more IMO.

If two receivers run deep, it takes a lot of time and makes it easier for the defense to decide coverage, (deep safeties without doubt).

Wow - that's pretty extreme... two deep receivers every single play? Who was advocating that?

Not even Moss went deep every time - in fact he had plenty of mid range catches himself as most WRs would catch the bulk of their passes say 15 yards out.

But I think everyone now admits that we had no one (or at least used no one) enough to establish anyone other than Moss as a deep WR that DBs worried about - and that showed in their coverage of Moss. Deus Irae goes so far as to assert that Gaffney was used as a deep WR (5 catches of passes thrown 20 yards or more during the season) but even he wanted to make clear that in NO way did he view Gaffney (nor Stallworth) as someone DC's viewed as a deep threat.

So would it benefit us to have another deep threat WR? I believe it would. And that might mean that Moss doesn't have quite as many catches this season as last - but it would likely ensure that Moss isn't as overworked or as over-covered this season either - and that would mean that Moss could make his most meaninful impact when it's most important.

No doubt Stallworth - either in the way he was used, or in his outright (lack of) talent and skills - failed to "prove" himself a deep threat as I think we all expected when he was signed. And indeed, given his high 2nd year salary, he's not here anymore.

Will Jackson be more successful? I do hope so.

 

[Dragda]

I liked Stallworth for his YAC abilities, but there was a definite decline from the first half to the second. Additionally, while I normally hate dealing with rumors, it was rumored that he was Shockey-like in his route running. If that struggle with running the right routes is true, it's easy to see why he wasn't brought back given the nature of his contract.

I wanted Stallworth back, but I think that may have been because being with Brady/BB enhanced his resume quite a bit. His DVOA numbers jumped tremendously from even his past two 'great' seasons to this past season, so I think I may have bought into the Patriots factor a bit too much on him. However, I also think that Stallworth has the physicality to be effective on slant routes, and the team just didn't run all that many of those with the outside wide receivers last year.

All the above being true, I really don't know how to grade him. I'm with you on Moss and I think Washington did fine, though he was not an impact receiver like some of his earlier supporters thought he would be.

I was one of the people who thought he'd be a decent receiver. I still think he can be. He is good depth anyway.

 

[RayClay]

Wow - that's pretty extreme... two deep receivers every single play? Who was advocating that?

Not even Moss went deep every time - in fact he had plenty of mid range catches himself as most WRs would catch the bulk of their passes say 15 yards out.

But I think everyone now admits that we had no one (or at least used no one) enough to establish anyone other than Moss as a deep WR that DBs worried about - and that showed in their coverage of Moss. Deus Irae goes so far as to assert that Gaffney was used as a deep WR (5 catches of passes thrown 20 yards or more during the season) but even he wanted to make clear that in NO way did he view Gaffney (nor Stallworth) as someone DC's viewed as a deep threat.

So would it benefit us to have another deep threat WR? I believe it would. And that might mean that Moss doesn't have quite as many catches this season as last - but it would likely ensure that Moss isn't as overworked or as over-covered this season either - and that would mean that Moss could make his most meaninful impact when it's most important.

No doubt Stallworth - either in the way he was used, or in his outright (lack of) talent and skills - failed to "prove" himself a deep threat as I think we all expected when he was signed. And indeed, given his high 2nd year salary, he's not here anymore.

Will Jackson be more successful? I do hope so.

Jerry Rice wasn't a classic deep threat speed wise either.

My point is, getting open and finding the soft spot in a defense can lead to big plays, even if a lot of it is YAC.

Having two deep threats just means playing a deep zone, I believe. I hesitate to get into technical aspects because I'm really just a casual fan.

Since unoriginal already posted and didn't abuse me, I hope I'm on the right track.

 

[Deus Irae]

But I think everyone now admits that we had no one (or at least used no one) enough to establish anyone other than Moss as a deep WR that DBs worried about - and that showed in their coverage of Moss. Deus Irae goes so far as to assert that Gaffney was used as a deep WR (5 catches of passes thrown 20 yards or more during the season) but even he wanted to make clear that in NO way did he view Gaffney (nor Stallworth) as someone DC's viewed as a deep threat.

Again, you're not getting what I'm saying. Randy Moss was in on 90% of the offensive snaps. He was the defensive threat that forced defenses to loosen up. The other players were able to take advantage of this looser defensive play by putting up career numbers (Yes, that includes Stallworth). The whole point of a guy like Gaffney getting 5 deep passes is that the opposition doesn't expect him to go deep since that's Moss' forte, and he's able to take advantage of the lax downfield coverage every couple of games.

You talked about Stallworth by claiming that he was misused. The numbers show that he overall had probably the second best year of his NFL career, yet that wasn't good enough for the Patriots to keep him. The way the Patriots used their receivers, including Stallworth, led to an NFL record for points in a season. It led to Brady being #1 in completion percentage, passing yards per game, number of 20 yard + passing plays and avg, as well as a 117.2 passer rating. It led to Welker leading the league in receptions and Moss once again being considered the best WR in the NFL by many observers.

It also led to Stallworth having his third highest reception season, third highest YPC season and second best DVOA season. The only year that Stallworth had a better DVOA was 2002, a year in which he caught 42 passes for a 14.1 YPC with 8 tds. Moss has played 10 NFL seasons, Stallworth has played 6. In Moss' 10 seasons, he's averaged under 15 ypc only 3 times. Stallworth has been under 15 ypc 3 times in 6 seasons, but not this past season with the Patriots. Even as the #2 'deep threat', and even with being demoted during the season, Stallworth averaged over 15 ypc last season. That made him tied for 20th overall, along with Moss, in the entire NFL, for receivers with 10 catches or more.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Again, you're not getting what I'm saying. Randy Moss was in on 90% of the offensive snaps. He was the defensive threat that forced defenses to loosen up. The other players were able to take advantage of this looser defensive play by putting up career numbers (Yes, that includes Stallworth). The whole point of a guy like Gaffney getting 5 deep passes is that the opposition doesn't expect him to go deep since that's Moss' forte, and he's able to take advantage of the lax downfield coverage every couple of games.

You talked about Stallworth by claiming that he was misused. The numbers show that he overall had probably the second best year of his NFL career, yet that wasn't good enough for the Patriots to keep him. The way the Patriots used their receivers, including Stallworth, led to an NFL record for points in a season. It led to Brady being #1 in completion percentage, passing yards per game, number of 20 yard + passing plays and avg, as well as a 117.2 passer rating. It led to Welker leading the league in receptions and Moss once again being considered the best WR in the NFL by many observers.

It also led to Stallworth having his third highest reception season, third highest YPC season and second best DVOA season. The only year that Stallworth had a better DVOA was 2002, a year in which he caught 42 passes for a 14.1 YPC with 8 tds. Moss has played 10 NFL seasons, Stallworth has played 6. In Moss' 10 seasons, he's averaged under 15 ypc only 3 times. Stallworth has been under 15 ypc 3 times in 6 seasons, but not this past season with the Patriots. Even as the #2 'deep threat', and even with being demoted during the season, Stallworth averaged over 15 ypc last season. That made him tied for 20th overall, along with Moss, in the entire NFL, for receivers with 10 catches or more.

Actually the point I'm making is that Moss was the only deep threat - at least the only deep threat that was used.

No one is asserting that the intense coverage devoted to Moss didn't free up numerous short passes to Welker.

The contention here is that as the one and only deep threat used by the team, that subjected Moss to increased coverage.

Send someone else deep enough to create a credible deep threat, and DCs won't be able to devote 2 and even 3 guys to cover Moss. My preference long term would be to see Moss facing less coverage so he can make the plays we want him to make in the critical situations.

The evidence on whether Stallworth was misused comes down to whether or not he's still the deep threat he was in Philly. If you think he's not that player then he wasn't misued. If you think he IS that deep threat WR, then one asks why he wasn't used as an alternate deep threat when we could have benefitted from one, just as we did in the Dallas game.

This is why BradyManny and I are hoping that Jackson begins to show some promise as a deep WR (as well as a deep threat!)

 

[Deus Irae]

...
The evidence on whether Stallworth was misused comes down to whether or not he's still the deep threat he was in Philly. If you think he's not that player then he wasn't misued. If you think he IS that deep threat WR, then one asks why he wasn't used as an alternate deep threat when we could have benefitted from one, just as we did in the Dallas game.

This is why BradyManny and I are hoping that Jackson begins to show some promise as a deep WR (as well as a deep threat!)

If Stallworth was such a great deep threat in Philly, why on earth did Philly, a team in desperate need of quality wide receivers, let Stallworth go?

 

[JoeSixPat]

If Stallworth was such a great deep threat in Philly, why on earth did Philly, a team in desperate need of quality wide receivers, let Stallworth go?

I'm not sure one can say they "let him go" as I don't think he was cut, nor under contract. But lots of fans in Philly were asking themselves that same question. Coming in he was heralded as "one of the league's most dangerous deep threats" for his accomplishments with the Saints and and he certainly lived up to that billing even in just the 12 games he played for the Eagles.

I suppose that's something to consider when one sees he was acclaimed as a deep threat in N.O, and Philly, but not used that way here.

But as to why he was not resigned, my guess was there was a combination of issues with the Eagles. They did make him an offer, but with Stallworth coming off a year in which he was dealing with nagging hamstring injuries, and a substance abuse policy violation my guess is that Stallworth felt he'd be better off coming to play for NE for a prove it season, showing he could stay clean, stay healthy and catch even more passes than he did in Philly.

Of course at the time Stallworth didn't know he'd be competing for passes with Moss.

Certainly the offer from the Patriots didn't break the bank either - so its probably safe to assume Stallworth felt the better deal would be to play here for a year. The Eagles also might have felt that Reggie Brown and the option of going with Kevin Curtis would be a better fit - at least healthwise, and substance abuse policy wise (I think he would have been facing a suspension if caught again) - than devoting a chunk of salary to Stallworth.

Reggie Brown's situation is interesting in that the Eagles often used him as an alternate or complimentary deep threat to Stallworth and in fact you saw his YPC rise to nearly 18 - not far off from Stallworth's 19ypc.

But without Stallworth on the field this season Brown's average dropped greatly this season and the Eagles were left without as strong deep threat presence.

Likely the use of Stallworth AND Brown deep helped BOTH players be more productive deep.

So I don't know for sure but I'd say there's a number of possible reasons the Eagles didn't make him a more lucrative offer for 2007 and beyond - and a number of reasons why Stallworth thought it would be better to play a "prove it" season here.

But if your contention is that he wasn't viewed as a deep threat by the Eagles, nor by New Orleans, and therefore that's why he wasn't used as a deep threat here, I don't think that is the case.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm not sure one can say they "let him go" as I don't think he was cut, nor under contract. But lots of fans in Philly were asking themselves that same question. Coming in he was heralded as "one of the league's most dangerous deep threats" for his accomplishments with the Saints and and he certainly lived up to that billing even in just the 12 games he played for the Eagles.

I suppose that's something to consider when one sees he was acclaimed as a deep threat in N.O, and Philly, but not used that way here.

But as to why he was not resigned, my guess was there was a combination of issues with the Eagles. They did make him an offer, but with Stallworth coming off a year in which he was dealing with nagging hamstring injuries, and a substance abuse policy violation my guess is that Stallworth felt he'd be better off coming to play for NE for a prove it season, showing he could stay clean, stay healthy and catch even more passes than he did in Philly.

Of course at the time Stallworth didn't know he'd be competing for passes with Moss.

Certainly the offer from the Patriots didn't break the bank either - so its probably safe to assume Stallworth felt the better deal would be to play here for a year. The Eagles also might have felt that Reggie Brown and the option of going with Kevin Curtis would be a better fit - at least healthwise, and substance abuse policy wise (I think he would have been facing a suspension if caught again) - than devoting a chunk of salary to Stallworth.

Reggie Brown's situation is interesting in that the Eagles often used him as an alternate or complimentary deep threat to Stallworth and in fact you saw his YPC rise to nearly 18 - not far off from Stallworth's 19ypc.

But without Stallworth on the field this season Brown's average dropped greatly this season and the Eagles were left without as strong deep threat presence.

Likely the use of Stallworth AND Brown deep helped BOTH players be more productive deep.

So I don't know for sure but I'd say there's a number of possible reasons the Eagles didn't make him a more lucrative offer for 2007 and beyond - and a number of reasons why Stallworth thought it would be better to play a "prove it" season here.

But if your contention is that he wasn't viewed as a deep threat by the Eagles, nor by New Orleans, and therefore that's why he wasn't used as a deep threat here, I don't think that is the case.

Let me put it succinctly:

If he were the player you claim he is, why would 3 pass oriented teams let him move on without fighting to keep him, particularly two as savvy with their own veteran players as the Patriots and Eagles?

 

[BradyManny]

Let me put it succinctly:

If he were the player you claim he is, why would 3 pass oriented teams let him move on without fighting to keep him, particularly two as savvy with their own veteran players as the Patriots and Eagles?

Most notably for me is the fact that his snaps declined as the year went on. Stallworth just wasn't a well-rounded enough receiver for what we wanted, he's just good at YAC and is an explosive play-maker.

 

[JoeSixPat]

Let me put it succinctly:

If he were the player you claim he is, why would 3 pass oriented teams let him move on without fighting to keep him, particularly two as savvy with their own veteran players as the Patriots and Eagles?

Let me put it succinctly. My guess is they weren't inclined to offer a long term contract with significant guaranteed money because of his hamstring issues and possibly because of run-ins with substance abuse policy violations.

That and perhaps the fact they felt that Reggie Brown could step in as a deep threat WR after the year he had (likely helped by the presence of Stallworth, just as I hope that an additional deep threat WR on our team can benefit both players as well).

The Eagles acknowledged they made an effort to re-sign him - but I tend to doubt they were going to go overboard with a big offer for a guy coming off a season where he was injured, et al - and obviously Stallworth felt a 1 year prove it offer to put up some good numbers with Brady was a better move. I hate to state the obvious but THAT'S WHY PLAYERS ACCEPT ONE YEAR PROVE IT DEALS.

But are you saying you think his production in Philly was bad, and that's why the "let him go"? Again, unless Stallworth was cut, I think Stallworth had a bit to say about where he played in 2007 and it wasn't solely the Eagles decision.

As far as why the Patriots let him walk, are you aware of what Stallworth's contract called for him to be paid this season? Do you not think that might have had something to do with the Patriots decision? I don't view their unwillingness to match the Browns offer to Stallworth as an indictment of Stallworth's ability. That's probably a smart decision on their part.

The Patriots either couldn't or wouldn't use him as a deep threat WR - as I've said numerous times I'm not sure which it is.

If the ability he showed in Philly, which led us to sign him in the first place, is gone due to chronic hamstring issues then I've got no beef. If he was healthy this season and the OC decided there was no benefit to having a complementary deep threat WR, then I question whether they'll use Chad Jackson in that manner even if he CAN get the job done deep.

 

[Terry Glenn is a cowgirl]

So far, the Patriots have made a series of "prove it" deals, most recently and notably with Bryant and Hobson. They took two guys who have started and played well and signed them for vet min for 1 season. The club gets a potential steal for a season while the player gets the chance to prove his worth on the best team in the league, inevitably leading to either a solid contract with said team or a cash-in elsewhere.

Let's see how this strategy worked for the past season for 3 somewhat situations, and I'm including Stallworth and Washington's deals as this type of "prove it" deal:

RANDY MOSS: A+
I'm not even going to add commentary to this. It goes without saying.

KELLEY WASHINGTON: B
Didn't work out for Washington in terms of dollar bills, but he seems happy as a Patriot, and I think we all appreciate and respect that. In terms of what the Pats got, well they didn't need Washington's services when it came to pass-catching, but he proved an ST gem and may contribute as a receiver this season. All in all, a good signing for both parties involved.

DONTE STALLWORTH: C
I may be in the minority, but I was pretty disappointed in Stallworth's play, and I think if he had been able to play at a bit of a higher level and contribute more than just YAC capabilities, then the "blueprint" that teams adopted to use against this offense would have failed miserably. I believe that if Chad Jackson develops into the threat he was drafted to be, he will be a huge upgrade over Stallworth. Donte proved to be a poor deep threat, was terrible on jump balls, had occasionally shaky hands, earned Brady a few picks, never seemed to grasp the offense, and didn't contribute much at all in the intermediate passing attack. All that said, he was an explosive and deadly guy with the ball in his hands, but we needed more from him. Ultimately, this deal worked out better for Donte. Just by having Brady toss him a few balls around the line of scrimmage and let him run, he ends up signing a bloated deal at the end of the season.


I look forward to seeing how the Hobson/Bryant/Webster/Sanders deals pan out, b/c I think particularly the Hobson/Bryant deals have a lot of upside and were really steals for the Pats.

I was going to post (if/when my ban was lifted) something similar.

I like the "prove it to me" type contracts.

You typically see a player that tends to wants it more this way.

 

[Deus Irae]

But are you saying you think his production in Philly was bad?

No, I'm saying that you've been overrating him.

As far as why the Patriots let him walk, are you aware of what Stallworth's contract called for him to be paid this season?

Yes. Are you aware that the team had moved Gaffney into the #2 outside receiver position over the course of the season?

Do you not think that might have had something to do with the Patriots decision? I don't view their unwillingness to match the Browns offer to Stallworth as an indictment of Stallworth's ability. That's probably a smart decision on their part.

Money always plays a factor. However, to doubt that this was an indictment of Stallworth's ability is to ignore the actions of 3 consecutive teams.

If the ability he showed in Philly, which led us to sign him in the first place, is gone due to chronic hamstring issues then I've got no beef. If he was healthy this season and the OC decided there was no benefit to having a complementary deep threat WR, then I question whether they'll use Chad Jackson in that manner even if he CAN get the job done deep.

He was signed because the team had lost Branch and Givens and hadn't been able to replace them. Once the full offseason of signings was complete (See Moss, Randy), he became far less important because he's no Randy Moss. In all likelihood, he'd have had to restructure his contract if he was going to stay, however that was not even an option. The team just let him go after replacing him as the #2 outside option with Gaffney. That, in combination with the other factors involved, should serve as a clue about how they regarded his game.

 

[JoeSixPat]

No, I'm saying that you've been overrating him.

Over-rating his performance here? Quite the opposite.

Over-rating his performance with the Eagles? I don't think so. I'll give you credit if you were one of the few here who wasn't excited about his signing. One might do well to check those threads from a year ago - I do know there were a small handful of people who had "proved" that the 7th rated offense in the league led by Reche Caldwell that got us to the cusp of the Super Bowl was in no need of upgrades. Funny how statistics can be misleading like that, no?

Are you aware that the team had moved Gaffney into the #2 outside receiver position over the course of the season?

Money always plays a factor. However, to doubt that this was an indictment of Stallworth's ability is to ignore the actions of 3 consecutive teams.

You must be confusing me with someone else - though I don't know one person who suggested that his production here justified $8 million in bonus money plus a $3 million salary this season.

Though I also don't know too many people who think that the Patriots signed him to such a potentially lucrative contract because they thought he underperformed in Philly and NO

I think the Eagles actually traded a 4th round pick plus a player to get him in the first place. Do you consider that chump change for a guy in the last year of his contract who you assert underperformed in New Orleans?

Of course as far as renegotiating with Stallworth, I have a suspicion that Stallworth's agent might have had some idea of what a team like the Browns might offer him.

So are you really surprised that there was little chance of striking a new deal with Stallworth here based on the money alone? I mean wasn't he due something like $11 million this year? What would he have had to do to earn that? No doubt he didn't come close and once he was on the open market, I doubt the Patriots would ever have been the highest bidder, nor would Stallworth accept another Prove It deal with Moss in town.

Yet you seem to ignore all of those facts and declare him personae non grata here, in Philly and in N.O.

Here's what was said about Stallworth coming into Philly - note the stats refernced as well.

Eagles Trade For WR Stallworth
August 28, 2006 | Last Updated: 9/4/06 6:47 PM ET | Comments (0)
By: DAVE SPADARO

The Eagles have traded a conditional fourth-round draft pick and reserve linebacker Mark Simoneau to the New Orleans Saints for wide receiver Donté Stallworth. The trade is contingent upon both players passing physicals with their respective new teams.
"We're bringing in an experienced receiver that's coming off of a great year with the New Orleans Saints and he'll fit in nicely into our receiving corps," said head coach Andy Reid. "He's got tremendous speed and quickness and he catches the ball very well. He's good with the yards after the catch."

"Mark was one of my favorite guys," said Reid of Simoneau. "He was a great person and tremendous player for us, on special teams and at linebacker. We just appreciate everything he did for this organization."

One of the league's most dangerous deep threats, Stallworth (6-0, 196) is entering his fifth professional season after originally being drafted by the Saints with the 13th overall pick in the 2002 draft. Last season, Stallworth had a stellar year with 70 receptions for 945 yards and seven touchdowns. His touchdown total was his highest since his rookie season when he set a team rookie record with eight scores.

Quarterback Donovan McNabb is excited about the addition of Stallworth.

"Donté is an explosive player who has had a very productive career with the Saints," said McNabb. "I've said many times earlier that I like the skill position players on our roster but realize that you can never have enough playmakers."

In 56 career games (32 starts), Stallworth has hauled in 195 receptions for 2,791 yards and 23 touchdowns. Among his career receptions, 45 were for 20 yards-or-more, while 12 of his career touchdowns were from 25 yards out or further. In addition, four of Stallworth's touchdown receptions have been game winners, including two in 2004, and he has notched 10 career 100-yard receiving games. In 2002, he became the first NFL rookie in 20 years to catch a touchdown in each of his first four games.

The 25-year-old, Sacramento, CA, native starred collegiately at Tennessee, where he finished his career with 99 receptions for 1,747 yards and 13 touchdowns. Stallworth entered the 2002 draft following his junior season.

Stallworth has 10 career games with 100-plus receiving yards.

Now to me, that doesn't sound like a guy who had underperformed in N.O. - and sending a 4th rounder plus a player for a guy in the last year of his contract doesn't strike me as a small price.

Nor do I seem to recall Patriots fans or front office personnel declaring his time with Philly as bad as you say it was. Certainly he was injured - but he had a good number of deep catches in the games he played.