End Shortlist

[jays52]

With all of the (at times heated) talk about ends on other threads I thought it would be easiest to group the higher rated prospects here. As it stands there seems to be a fair consensus on the base players.

Elite no-shots:
Dareus
Fairley(?)

Middle group:
Jordan
Watt
Wilkerson

Late 1st/2nd:
Ellis
Heyward

There also should be some talk for situational guys. While they'll never play in base, they can contribute 30 snaps a game in passing situations and be able to offer some versatility with the agility to run some zone stuff like dogs and fires.

Bailey(?)
Klug


Thoughts?

 

[TealSox]

With all of the (at times heated) talk about ends on other threads I thought it would be easiest to group the higher rated prospects here. As it stands there seems to be a fair consensus on the base players.

Elite no-shots:
Dareus
Fairley(?)

Middle group:
Jordan
Watt
Wilkerson

Late 1st/2nd:
Ellis
Heyward

There also should be some talk for situational guys. While they'll never play in base, they can contribute 30 snaps a game in passing situations and be able to offer some versatility with the agility to run some zone stuff like dogs and fires.

Bailey(?)
Klug


Thoughts?

Marcell Dareus seems to be have replaced Da'Quan Bowers as the top prospect on the defensive line, but Bowers will still go in the first round along with Nick Fairly.

I'd suggest the following DEs/DTs go in the first round...

- Dareus, Marcell
- Bowers, Da'Quan
- Fairly, Nick
- Quinn, Robert
- Jordan, Cameron
- Watt, JJ
- Aldon Smith
- Kerrigan, Ryan
- Wilkerson, Muhammad
- Taylor, Phil

I'd forecast the following as second round guys..

- Clayborn, Adrian
- Heyward, Cameron
- Bailey, Allen
- Liuget, Corey
- Ballard, Christian

Third round guys...

- Paea, Stephen
- Powe, Jerrell
- Ellis, Kenrick
- McPhee, Pernell

 

[stinkypete]

What about Jarvis Jenkins. Many have him as a 3rd round guy, and Belichick seems high on him.

 

[MaineMan]

Marcell Dareus seems to be have replaced Da'Quan Bowers as the top prospect on the defensive line, but Bowers will still go in the first round along with Nick Fairly.

I'd suggest the following DEs/DTs go in the first round...

- Dareus, Marcell
- Bowers, Da'Quan
- Fairly, Nick
- Quinn, Robert
- Jordan, Cameron
- Watt, JJ
- Aldon Smith
- Kerrigan, Ryan
- Wilkerson, Muhammad
- Taylor, Phil

I'd forecast the following as second round guys..

- Clayborn, Adrian
- Heyward, Cameron
- Bailey, Allen
- Liuget, Corey
- Ballard, Christian

Third round guys...

- Paea, Stephen
- Powe, Jerrell
- Ellis, Kenrick
- McPhee, Pernell

Wondering if Marvin Austin and/or Terrell McClain move up into your 3rd group.

 

[West Philly Patriot]

I am now torn on my list of DE's. Are we looking for a seymour type DE in Heyward/Wilkerson or the shiny sleeker model in Watt/Jordan.

Of the two groups I prefer Watt/Heyward. BB loves value and I think we could even trade down in the 1st and still get Heyward. Watt Is the better Pass rusher. He's also the more coveted player across the board and may even possibly require a trade up. I think Heyward belongs in the middle group as well.

Elite
1)Dareus
2)Fairley

Middle Group
3)Watt
4)Heyward
5)Wilkerson
6)Jordan

2nd Round
Ellis- I may be in the minority but, I dont think Kendrick has the agility or 1st step to play DE consistently at his current weight. Among other concerns.

Other
I just feel like we need situational OLB's not DE's. We need 3 down lineman than can 1) stop the run 2) Pressure the QB. I believe an effective run stopping LDE with the ability to rush the passer will allow us to dedicate fewer resources to the Run D.

 

[Brady2Welker]

With all of the (at times heated) talk about ends on other threads I thought it would be easiest to group the higher rated prospects here. As it stands there seems to be a fair consensus on the base players.

Elite no-shots:
Dareus
Fairley(?)

Middle group:
Jordan
Watt
Wilkerson

Late 1st/2nd:
Ellis
Heyward

There also should be some talk for situational guys. While they'll never play in base, they can contribute 30 snaps a game in passing situations and be able to offer some versatility with the agility to run some zone stuff like dogs and fires.

Bailey(?)
Klug


Thoughts?

I agree with your overall rankings, but personally think Heyward is a bit underrated on your list. I'd put him in the middle of the first if it wasn't for his injury. As for Bailey, I see him as an elephant OLB more than 5 technique. I really doubt he can play the 5 like we'd ask him to do. Similarly, I see Jordan as a defensive end in a more aggressive scheme. Jordan would thrive in Pittsburgh or GB but once again I'm not sure he's a two gapper.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

With all of the (at times heated) talk about ends on other threads I thought it would be easiest to group the higher rated prospects here. As it stands there seems to be a fair consensus on the base players.

Elite no-shots:
Dareus
Fairley(?)

Middle group:
[no confidence]Jordan[/no confidence]
Watt
Wilkerson

Late 1st/2nd:
Paea
Ellis
Jenkins
[no confidence]Heyward[/no confidence]

There also should be some talk for situational guys. While they'll never play in base, they can contribute 30 snaps a game in passing situations and be able to offer some versatility with the agility to run some zone stuff like dogs and fires.

Bailey(?)
Klug


Thoughts?

I believe Bailey and Klug, if drafted by NE, will be OLB conversions, only kicking inside on 3rd & long, I'd expect both to play in the 255-265 range.

Two other "tweeners" to consider: Pernell McPhee and Brandon Bair.

I believe another 15-20 lbs on McPhee would put him in the Mike Wright weight class and that he'd be a nice reserve DE/3rd down specialist in the Jarvis Green/Mike Wright tradition.

Bair at 6-6 276 has LB change of direction numbers, he also has the quickest hands I can recall seeing when it comes to batting down passes (like a ping pong playing cat). I could see Bair bulking up another 20-25 lbs to be a pocket collapsing DE, or I can see trimming a 5-10 lbs off him and using him as a power forward OLB in the WillieMac tradition. The guy really does a nice job of clogging throwing lanes.

 

[jays52]

I agree with your overall rankings, but personally think Heyward is a bit underrated on your list. I'd put him in the middle of the first if it wasn't for his injury. As for Bailey, I see him as an elephant OLB more than 5 technique. I really doubt he can play the 5 like we'd ask him to do. Similarly, I see Jordan as a defensive end in a more aggressive scheme. Jordan would thrive in Pittsburgh or GB but once again I'm not sure he's a two gapper.

That's actually a really good point you bring up about the Elephant. The Elephant is actually a 43 position that due to the over-like shift on the Sam gives the illusion of the 34. In that Carrol style 43, the weakside end often plays in the two point (elephant, derived from end) and the Sam comes down and (depending on scheme, but in general) plays a wide nine technique which is the outside shoulder of the TE (or almost head-up on the slot, depending on if the TE is there, ect..) All of the other line positions are still 43 valid. Your DT's are still in the one and three techniques, and your other end is in a seven technique.

So, going back to Bailey as an elephant. While there is no elephant in Belichick's 34, there is certainly a case to be made for that type of player to be brought on board. It would be a really interesting variant in their 42 nickel. By aligning an end (such as Bailey) as an Elephant and putting an over shift on not only do you place a great coverage backer into an area frequently attacked by the spread (AND protect him from blockers! Guyton, anyone?), you still can disguise the pressures and play simple math with the blocking schemes. It would give the illusion and coverage versatility of the 33, but still enable upfield play along the line. Conversely, you still have a player that can two-gap well enough to not be a complete liability against spread runs and five man blocking sets should you elect to shift into head-up alignments. With the amount of time the Pats play in sub that makes a bunch of sense.

Wow. Suddenly I like Bailey and understand the attention he's been getting from the coaches.

 

[Ochmed Jones]

As for Bailey, I see him as an elephant OLB more than 5 technique. I really doubt he can play the 5 like we'd ask him to do.

Except that Bailey is neither sudden nor instinctive in space.

 

[dryheat44]

That's actually a really good point you bring up about the Elephant. The Elephant is actually a 43 position that due to the over-like shift on the Sam gives the illusion of the 34. In that Carrol style 43, the weakside end often plays in the two point (elephant, derived from end) and the Sam comes down and (depending on scheme, but in general) plays a wide nine technique which is the outside shoulder of the TE (or almost head-up on the slot, depending on if the TE is there, ect..) All of the other line positions are still 43 valid. Your DT's are still in the one and three techniques, and your other end is in a seven technique.

So, going back to Bailey as an elephant. While there is no elephant in Belichick's 34, there is certainly a case to be made for that type of player to be brought on board. It would be a really interesting variant in their 42 nickel. By aligning an end (such as Bailey) as an Elephant and putting an over shift on not only do you place a great coverage backer into an area frequently attacked by the spread (AND protect him from blockers! Guyton, anyone?), you still can disguise the pressures and play simple math with the blocking schemes. It would give the illusion and coverage versatility of the 33, but still enable upfield play along the line. Conversely, you still have a player that can two-gap well enough to not be a complete liability against spread runs and five man blocking sets should you elect to shift into head-up alignments. With the amount of time the Pats play in sub that makes a bunch of sense.

Wow. Suddenly I like Bailey and understand the attention he's been getting from the coaches.

Great description about the position. However, I believe Romeus is that person in the draft.

 

[jays52]

Great description about the position. However, I believe Romeus is that person in the draft.

I'm right there with you on Romeus. He seems like the prototypical Belichick mid-round steal due to medical. Everything I've read sounds great but I've never seen him play so I don't feel comfortable commenting. How do you think his game meshes with that type of position? Always enjoy your thoughts and would appreciate any.

 

[dryheat44]

I'm right there with you on Romeus. He seems like the prototypical Belichick mid-round steal due to medical. Everything I've read sounds great but I've never seen him play so I don't feel comfortable commenting. How do you think his game meshes with that type of position? Always enjoy your thoughts and would appreciate any.

Given a return to full health, I think he's a first round OLB talent. I saw him quite a bit in 2009, and my impressions while watching was that he was the OLB that Belichick could finally take in the first round. I haven't re-watched any of those games, although I'd love to just to re-confirm what I saw. Is he going to be a guy to cover receivers 12-15 yards off the LOS? No. He didn't have Guyton agility before the ACL and back injuries, and I doubt he does now. But he's agile enough to drop into the short zones and cover the flats -- He was a basketball star in HS. He's dependable against the run, and is instinctive enough to be where the ball is going. I can't comment on his on-field discipline...it's not a Wannestadt strong suit -- but if BB can sell it to a guy like Seau, who'll make the HoF by winging it during most of his career, he can sell it to anybody. He's violent when combatting blocks, has good bull rush, swim, and club moves. Good motor in pursuit and in pass rush. Works hard to get off blocks.

We'll see what the MRIs say, but I'm looking for him in the third.

 

[TealSox]

Greg Romeus seems like a Brandon Tate type pick... his ACL kept him from his Pro Day.

 

[Brady2Welker]

Except that Bailey is neither sudden nor instinctive in space.

I agree with you on that one, but I don't exactly see him as a 5 tech. It's a case of square peg round hole for this guy.

 

[patchick]

Greg Romeus seems like a Brandon Tate type pick... his ACL kept him from his Pro Day.

That's been one of A.J. Smith's specialties even more than Belichick's -- Antonio Cromartie, Marcus McNeill, Anthony Waters. And San Diego has a bunch of picks this year.

 

[Off The Grid]

The Elephant is actually a 43 position that due to the over-like shift on the Sam gives the illusion of the 34. In that Carrol style 43, the weakside end often plays in the two point (elephant, derived from end) and the Sam comes down and (depending on scheme, but in general) plays a wide nine technique which is the outside shoulder of the TE (or almost head-up on the slot, depending on if the TE is there, ect..) All of the other line positions are still 43 valid. Your DT's are still in the one and three techniques, and your other end is in a seven technique.

So, going back to Bailey as an elephant. While there is no elephant in Belichick's 34, there is certainly a case to be made for that type of player to be brought on board. It would be a really interesting variant in their 42 nickel. By aligning an end (such as Bailey) as an Elephant and putting an over shift on not only do you place a great coverage backer into an area frequently attacked by the spread (AND protect him from blockers! Guyton, anyone?), you still can disguise the pressures and play simple math with the blocking schemes. It would give the illusion and coverage versatility of the 33, but still enable upfield play along the line. Conversely, you still have a player that can two-gap well enough to not be a complete liability against spread runs and five man blocking sets should you elect to shift into head-up alignments. With the amount of time the Pats play in sub that makes a bunch of sense.

Wow. Suddenly I like Bailey and understand the attention he's been getting from the coaches.

Wow.

I am now 5.8% smarter, just by reading that post.

I could actually feel my brain expand.

***

MIND you: I am SHORT Allen Bailey Stock.

SELL.

His Processing Speed is @$$.

 

[Off The Grid]

I'm right there with you on Romeus. He seems like the prototypical Belichick mid-round steal due to medical. Everything I've read sounds great but I've never seen him play so I don't feel comfortable commenting. How do you think his game meshes with that type of position? Always enjoy your thoughts and would appreciate any.

Given a return to full health, I think he's a first round OLB talent. I saw him quite a bit in 2009, and my impressions while watching was that he was the OLB that Belichick could finally take in the first round. I haven't re-watched any of those games, although I'd love to just to re-confirm what I saw. Is he going to be a guy to cover receivers 12-15 yards off the LOS? No. He didn't have Guyton agility before the ACL and back injuries, and I doubt he does now. But he's agile enough to drop into the short zones and cover the flats -- He was a basketball star in HS. He's dependable against the run, and is instinctive enough to be where the ball is going. I can't comment on his on-field discipline...it's not a Wannestadt strong suit -- but if BB can sell it to a guy like Seau, who'll make the HoF by winging it during most of his career, he can sell it to anybody. He's violent when combatting blocks, has good bull rush, swim, and club moves. Good motor in pursuit and in pass rush. Works hard to get off blocks.

Exquisite post.

For what it's worth, Brother Heat, I rescind my previous comment, scribed in the wake of your unfathomable defenestration of Wes Bunting.

I still cannot imagine why you think so lowly of a clearly insightful Analyst ~ perhaps his previous record, unbeknownst to THIS newcomer: Brother Jay has alluded to a great Change in Brother Bunting, one that would've predated my Quickening.

But there can be no question that your work, here, on its own merits, is absolutely outstanding.

***

Regarding Greg Romeus, I am, of course, a big fan of pulling in this exceptional though star-crossed recent Top 10 Projectee: It is, indeed, not at all beyond the realm of the reasonable that he could turn out, at the end of the day, to be a better fit for this Scheme that Robert Quinn, Aldon Smith, DaQuan Bowers, or any of the rest of them.

 

[bucky]

That's actually a really good point you bring up about the Elephant. The Elephant is actually a 43 position that due to the over-like shift on the Sam gives the illusion of the 34. In that Carrol style 43, the weakside end often plays in the two point (elephant, derived from end) and the Sam comes down and (depending on scheme, but in general) plays a wide nine technique which is the outside shoulder of the TE (or almost head-up on the slot, depending on if the TE is there, ect..) All of the other line positions are still 43 valid. Your DT's are still in the one and three techniques, and your other end is in a seven technique.

Jays,

I appreciate someone with your football knowledge explaining the "elephant" concept. I think this term has been used quite a lot around here to mean "jumbo OLB", which is not really correct. Having said that, I believe the idea of the elephant is having someone who is a good pass rusher and can play 43 DE, but is also capable of playing in a 2 point stance and dropping into zone coverage on occasion. So I would think someone like Cunningham or Aldon Smith would be a lot better elephant prospect than someone like Bailey - who's really just a pure 43 DE?