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Cam2HarryGOAT

On the Game Day Roster
So while I expect the Bills to win, this was not the game I predicted at all. I did consider the Bills might sell out to stop the run, but I didn't think they would do so an be so effective. I also thought they would go pass heavy and should abandon it for the most part. They did to great success mostly.

My main take away from this game is this: This is the final nail in the coffin for the Lamar Jackson narrative until he can give good performances in the playoffs. Even in his win last week he didn't look good, and he didn't deserve that win. I considering him a honorary 4-0 until proven otherwise. I no longer care what his stats look like how many rushing yards he gets or how badly he abuses bad Ds. When the whether gets cold and the good teams play and the whistles are swallowed he will be forced to pass to win, and he has shown repeatedly he can't do it. I will not believe in Lamar Jackson until he gives me a reason to believe in January. Neither should anyone else. If they do, then they are not looking at the reality of his play and current limits.

Did he have the best protection? No. Did he have the best weapons? No. Were those bad snaps his fault? No. But that does not excuse him from his missed throws, bad choices and mistakes. His D held this offense to 10 points, and all he could manage was 3 (9 if both FGs are made). And he could and should have done better. If it was just one game it be excusable, it is not. This is a pattern. Sell on Lamar. Sell. Sell. Sell.

As for the Bills, they showed some good coaching today. They have shown that all year, and I think they are well prepared to play KC next week unless they lay an egg. They match up well. I think we will see them take more risk. They seemed to want to play is fairly safe today, and I don't blame them. But their offense hasn't looked good these playoffs so far. They will need to score more vs KC. We have yet to see their best football game in these playoffs yet. Maybe they will bring it next week.
That pick six reminded me of the GOAT of choking, Peyton Manning- his pick six against the Saints. I know guys are only human. Mistakes happen. But that was just inexcusable.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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You mad bro?
Not even a little upset tbh.

I don't cry over football or political discussions bc I can keep my emotions in check. Unlike some who got the pofo shut down a minute after it went up and can't contribute to actual football discussions. Or start threads they know will get shut down to make myself feel better bc again I can't talk football.

No these people seem mad ...
He has a brain? Who knew...

concussion protocol??? this "world's greatest QB ever in history!!" doesn't even have a brain does he? I thought it was all "
run all over the field with with the speed of Usain Bolt...THAT'S NFL fooitball...Goo Goo Gaa Gaa!!!". Your heroboy blunder is O-U-T,,,but yeah, make thouands if idol worship posts and put down anybody who told you he was a fraud. Morons
 

Joker

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serious question...and I've been an NFL fan since 1960, played college ball, held a press pass for 8 years in the 90's and seen every great running QB in the league since the merger. Who are you taking in the draft...Randall Cunningham or Lamar Jackson? Michael Vick or Lamar Jackson? Steve Young or Lamar Jackson? Hell, Roger Staubach or Lamar Jackson? You can call me stupid and go beserk deifying Lamar Jackson all you want, all that matters at the end of the day is WINNING/PRODUCTION.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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So while I expect the Bills to win, this was not the game I predicted at all. I did consider the Bills might sell out to stop the run, but I didn't think they would do so an be so effective. I also thought they would go pass heavy and should abandon it for the most part. They did to great success mostly.

My main take away from this game is this: This is the final nail in the coffin for the Lamar Jackson narrative until he can give good performances in the playoffs. Even in his win last week he didn't look good, and he didn't deserve that win. I considering him a honorary 4-0 until proven otherwise. I no longer care what his stats look like how many rushing yards he gets or how badly he abuses bad Ds. When the whether gets cold and the good teams play and the whistles are swallowed he will be forced to pass to win, and he has shown repeatedly he can't do it. I will not believe in Lamar Jackson until he gives me a reason to believe in January. Neither should anyone else. If they do, then they are not looking at the reality of his play and current limits.

Did he have the best protection? No. Did he have the best weapons? No. Were those bad snaps his fault? No. But that does not excuse him from his missed throws, bad choices and mistakes. His D held this offense to 10 points, and all he could manage was 3 (9 if both FGs are made). And he could and should have done better. If it was just one game it be excusable, it is not. This is a pattern. Sell on Lamar. Sell. Sell. Sell.

As for the Bills, they showed some good coaching today. They have shown that all year, and I think they are well prepared to play KC next week unless they lay an egg. They match up well. I think we will see them take more risk. They seemed to want to play is fairly safe today, and I don't blame them. But their offense hasn't looked good these playoffs so far. They will need to score more vs KC. We have yet to see their best football game in these playoffs yet. Maybe they will bring it next week.
Seems like most play this 0 sum game whenever Jackson plays bad. For the past two years I've been hearing about lack of weapons and drafting blunders from NE fans but with Jackson it's black and white, no gray area. He's winning or losing a game. All of a sudden all of this "it's a team game" , "11 guys on the field" goes out the window.

Also I'd love and genuinely want to hear answers from everyone on this one. Excluding Mahomes, Brady, Wilson and Rodgers name me 5 QB's you can win solely bc of them. I'm talking poor weapons, running game is stuffed up, defense doesn't show up and coaching blunders. Name me 5 QB's that can win solely bc of their arm or pocket play. Bc that's exactly what Jackson has been working with. 32 Teams, plenty of QB's to choose from. All I hear is Jackson can't win with his arm or we. Are there 5 QB's in the entire league that can with just their arm? Without design/coaching creativeness, supplemental running game and a defense.

Be objective on the above and tell me most aren't spoiled, casual fans when we had some here defending Cam's 6 passing TD's this year.
 

Joker

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There's our sow! you're really feeling it ,eh Barfster? best part of the game was when the announcer said "wide left" and then began apologizing profusely to Barfalo fans for even making a hint of the dreaded "wide right". This means zero to me however because , until any further developments down the road...it's "wide right!" Sow belly boy...
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Fix the offense?

lol

On a non windy day, Bills beat the Ravens by 20+ points.

Two touchdowns taken off the board for Buffalo because of the wind, not to mention 2 field goals.

The wind sucked.
It's Buffalo and Allen has the strongest arm in the game. Today just wasn't the day everything clicked. It happens in the NFL at times. Way too much knee-jerk reactions from a game on both sides.
 

Ring 6

PatsFans.com Wall of Fame Member
Seems like most play this 0 sum game whenever Jackson plays bad. For the past two years I've been hearing about lack of weapons and drafting blunders from NE fans but with Jackson it's black and white, no gray area. He's winning or losing a game. All of a sudden all of this "it's a team game" , "11 guys on the field" goes out the window.

Also I'd love and genuinely want to hear answers from everyone on this one. Excluding Mahomes, Brady, Wilson and Rodgers name me 5 QB's you can win solely bc of them. I'm talking poor weapons, running game is stuffed up, defense doesn't show up and coaching blunders. Name me 5 QB's that can win solely bc of their arm or pocket play. Bc that's exactly what Jackson has been working with. 32 Teams, plenty of QB's to choose from. All I hear is Jackson can't win with his arm or we. Are there 5 QB's in the entire league that can with just their arm? Without design/coaching creativeness, supplemental running game and a defense.

Be objective on the above and tell me most aren't spoiled, casual fans when we had some here defending Cam's 6 passing TD's this year.
Jackson may have the most productive running offense in the history of the league. He isnt asked to win solely with his arm at all
But you are right teams win games. The Qb is just substantially more important to winning than any one else.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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Jackson may have the most productive running offense in the history of the league. He isnt asked to win solely with his arm at all
Try again and come correct (do a little thinking-research beforehand)

Excluding Jackson/Huntley, which running game am I supposed to be excited about? The rushing attack that ran for 80 yards this game or 40 games last year for the Titans?

Again nothing insightful. Just casual stuff with little thought. Haven't heard anyone mention Roman's failure to design a passing attack off that great running game that has flamed out the last two games. Or the fact that he can't even give the QB any help in the passing game. Again teams dropping 6 and running predictable 3 man routes.

No real help in the way of competent WR. That's all I've heard for the past two years here. Go compare each WR corp and tell me they're not both hurting.

I'll ask, anyone can answer. Excluding Brady, Mahomes, Rodgers and Wilson who are the 5 QB's that can win solely bc their arm, pocket passing? All I hear is Jackson can't pass but I'd love to know what QB's can win when with a poor targets that drop balls, coaching blunders and predictability, defense doesn't show up and let's Henry run for 200.

When it comes to Lamar it's a zero sum game. He has to improve in a lot of areas but fans here are just eating glue and writing post immediately after with these post.
 

BobDigital

Pro Bowl Player
Seems like most play this 0 sum game whenever Jackson plays bad. For the past two years I've been hearing about lack of weapons and drafting blunders from NE fans but with Jackson it's black and white, no gray area. He's winning or losing a game. All of a sudden all of this "it's a team game" , "11 guys on the field" goes out the window.

Also I'd love and genuinely want to hear answers from everyone on this one. Excluding Mahomes, Brady, Wilson and Rodgers name me 5 QB's you can win solely bc of them. I'm talking poor weapons, running game is stuffed up, defense doesn't show up and coaching blunders. Name me 5 QB's that can win solely bc of their arm or pocket play. Bc that's exactly what Jackson has been working with. 32 Teams, plenty of QB's to choose from. All I hear is Jackson can't win with his arm or we. Are there 5 QB's in the entire league that can with just their arm? Without design/coaching creativeness, supplemental running game and a defense.

Be objective on the above and tell me most aren't spoiled, casual fans when we had some here defending Cam's 6 passing TD's this year.
You are correct. Most play it 0 sum. I have to admit, Jackson is better than a lot starters right now in the NFL. He gives you a better chance to win than most other QBs. As I mentioned, he didn't have a ton of help out there today. A lot of things went wrong that weren't his fault and he couldn't control. I don't blame him for the missed kicks. The bad snaps. The bad protection. His WRs weren't open and the times they were he often had pressure in his face.

Take that pass late in the first quarter (I think) a WR broke open in the end zone but he had pressure in his face and missed the throw. While it's a possible throw to make, I don't think it was a bad play to miss it. He just failed to make a great play. Most NFL starting QBs usually fail to make great plays, otherwise they wouldn't be great plays : P

No QB can win without help. Even Brady in his prime get smacked around when his OL failed to block and his WR failed to get open. It is a team sport, the QB may be the engine, but if the rest of the car is trash I don't care how much horse power you have.

While I don't blame Jackson entirely for the loss or entirely give him credit for all the wins, I think the W/L record should fall on QBs over the long term. Just like a starting pitcher. There is a reason why good QBs tend to win and bad ones tend to lose. You can't look at just any one game or one set of data, but if the data you have correlates with the W/L record that is usually telling. As for how many QBs I would take over Lamar besides the ones you named? It depends. Are we talking over the course of a year in just in the playoffs.

Over the course of a year I'd still take Brees, Allen and Watson. However, in the playoffs I think it is a different game. I think a QBs ability to pass is just so important when it comes to this time of year, which is why I'm down on Lamar. I do believe most are spoiled casual fans and I don't excuse Cam's bad play.

We also need to remember the Ravens built their team in part around Lamar, while their pass blocking is suspect, they have one of the best run blocking OLs in the NFL. Maybe they should pay for a guy like Diggs, but perhaps the worry Lamar can't take full advantage of a guy like that? And some resources they invested to get such a player would go to waste. Not sure of that is true, total conjecture. In any case, right now even with my misgivings about Lamar there probably won't be 14 other QBs I'd rather have in the post season. But I just don't see them ever winning with him.

As far as the Jackson 'can't win with him arm' thing, I believe in that. In the playoffs your better off have a QB who stays in the pocket in throws, that style just seems to work better. Even with guys like Eli, Flacco, Foles. You get pocket passers and hope they get hot. You build your talent around the passing game and not the running game. In the end it comes down to I'd rather bet on Matt Ryan not peeing down his leg and hitting his down field passes. I just don't see a situation where you will face 3 good teams that don't have a way to take away a QB's running ability and make him play a game he didn't expect he would have to and isn't fully comfortable with.

But to be fair, we don't have a large sample of these guys. We're basically talking guys like Vick, RG3 an Jackson. There's also the injury concern that comes into play. Sadly Jackson got hurt again today. : (
 

PatriotReign

In the Starting Line-Up
Kurt Warner in the Super Bowl against us...THAT was a concussion. He came back and played. Not "world's greatest ever!!!!" though..
Unless a player hides the trauma which isn't easy, the unrelated neuro consultant in the booth will buzz down and have the player pulled. After sitting on their hands for years the league is not letting anything concussion related slip through now. The NYFL offices willingness to sweep this stuff under the rug played a major role on why the game is overly officiated to limit head injuries. Even if he wanted to stay out there there's no way it happens.
 

BaconGrundleCandy

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You are correct. Most play it 0 sum. I have to admit, Jackson is better than a lot starters right now in the NFL. He gives you a better chance to win than most other QBs. As I mentioned, he didn't have a ton of help out there today. A lot of things went wrong that weren't his fault and he couldn't control. I don't blame him for the missed kicks. The bad snaps. The bad protection. His WRs weren't open and the times they were he often had pressure in his face.
This has been a problem in big games of late. The last two games the offense as a whole has collapsed. Regression was alway coming, I knew that but the OL hasn't been the same. Drop off from Yanda is too noticeable and Jackson was pressured a lot more this year. Not too mention his C has been F'n him almost all year.
Take that pass late in the first quarter (I think) a WR broke open in the end zone but he had pressure in his face and missed the throw. While it's a possible throw to make, I don't think it was a bad play to miss it. He just failed to make a great play. Most NFL starting QBs usually fail to make great plays, otherwise they wouldn't be great plays : P

No QB can win without help. Even Brady in his prime get smacked around when his OL failed to block and his WR failed to get open. It is a team sport, the QB may be the engine, but if the rest of the car is trash I don't care how much horse power you have.

While I don't blame Jackson entirely for the loss or entirely give him credit for all the wins, I think the W/L record should fall on QBs over the long term. Just like a starting pitcher.
I feel like most baseball fans, mostly nerds would argue the opposite. W/L isn't exactly the best way to look at QB play as so many other factors come into play.

Few examples, every QB needs help in the way of targets but they also need OC help. Every QB including Brady. Everyone needs help. 1)Roman is asking Lamar to throw to 3 defended by 6. 2)Asking him to go through progressions when he's being blitzes to death. Instead of calling quick hitters to combat that rush. 3)Run a puller in front of Lamar more if you're going to do that wide-stretch stuff. 4)Hard to be more predictable than Roman's passing attack. No creativity. Like Mcvay has built a nice passing game off the rushing attack.
There is a reason why good QBs tend to win and bad ones tend to lose. You can't look at just any one game or one set of data, but if the data you have correlates with the W/L record that is usually telling. As for how many QBs I would take over Lamar besides the ones you named? It depends. Are we talking over the course of a year in just in the playoffs.

Over the course of a year I'd still take Brees, Allen and Watson. However, in the playoffs I think it is a different game. I think a QBs ability to pass is just so important when it comes to this time of year, which is why I'm down on Lamar. I do believe most are spoiled casual fans and I don't excuse Cam's bad play.
Brees would be done without Payton, Kamara & Thomas imo. Watson has less playoff wins than Jackson which some posters here seem to think matters when we're talking about 2-3 games? Like I'll hear pats fans say Lamar can't win in the playoffs but let's trade 2 1st and Gilmore for Watson. For the record I love Watson and would trade 3 1st for him just pointing out that a lot of posters are contradicting themselves and all over the place on this issue.

Take away the running game and Mcvay could Goff beat you for 2-3 games bc of his arm or pocket play?

What about if Cleveland's PA game and rushing attack was stuffed up, could Baker? Who I'm a big fan of still.

I mean Rodgers is walking into the HOF and look at the differences between McCarthy's packers and this year's squad?

Point is there's very few QB's in the league rn that can win solely bc of their arm. I hear it all the time and it drives me nuts. Where are these QB's bc I'm not seeing them. Jackson, Allen, Murray and some use their legs, others need scheme to make it happen. Take away the supplemental game, making things easy (running game, creative coaching, elite targets) and you have 4-5 QB's that make up the list.
We also need to remember the Ravens built their team in part around Lamar, while their pass blocking is suspect, they have one of the best run blocking OLs in the NFL. Maybe they should pay for a guy like Diggs, but perhaps the worry Lamar can't take full advantage of a guy like that? And some resources they invested to get such a player would go to waste. Not sure of that is true, total conjecture.
He absolutely needs a Diggs or Hopkins type. Contested catcher that can stretch the field for 15-25 chunks. Someone who doesn't need a perfect pass. Everyone needs this guy. Rn Jackson has the most trust in Willie Ahead imo. That's a problem if you have SB expectations.
In any case, right now even with my misgivings about Lamar there probably won't be 14 other QBs I'd rather have in the post season. But I just don't see them ever winning with him.

As far as the Jackson 'can't win with him arm' thing, I believe in that. In the playoffs your better off have a QB who stays in the pocket in throws, that style just seems to work better. Even with guys like Eli, Flacco, Foles. You get pocket passers and hope they get hot. You build your talent around the passing game and not the running game. In the end it comes down to I'd rather bet on Matt Ryan not peeing down his leg and hitting his down field passes. I just don't see a situation where you will face 3 good teams that don't have a way to take away a QB's running ability and make him play a game he didn't expect he would have to and isn't fully comfortable with.

But to be fair, we don't have a large sample of these guys. We're basically talking guys like Vick, RG3 an Jackson. There's also the injury concern that comes into play. Sadly Jackson got hurt again today. : (
The thing here is whether we like it or not more QB's can move and run than not. And very soon with guys like Brees, Brady, Ben, Rivers, Fitz leaving we'll have even more athletes at the position. You absolutely must be able to win with your arm but QB's are just different now. Jackson, Allen, Mahomes and Mayfield all can make plays with their legs. The league isn't shifting its shifted imo.

Good post and thought out though I agree with some of what you have to say. Jackson absolutely has to improve but he's not nearly the player most make him out to be here. He's held to a different standard which is weird. No QB gets the reaction he does here. No talk about his pocket presence and scrambling ability. One of the best red zone passers since he started playing. The fact that he's one of the best anticipatory passers when it comes to the MOF. Making the playoffs each year, even coming in during the middle of his rookie year when the team had a losing record. Working with a poor WR corp and weird group of weapons. I just try to look at all sides and have some balance even though everyone (including me) has bias.

Even in today's game they had a legit chance to win. Two Tucker misses and a Andrews dropped TD. Over-throw from Huntley to Brown in the 4th that would have been 6. No luck in the past few big games and everyone needs a little luck. Pats fans should know that better than anyone.
 

amfootball

In the Starting Line-Up
I am not sure Lamar can run a pro style offense. That is why the Ravens built the team they did around him and really have done a fantastic job. Every team that loses can talk about more weapons but the game last night came down to just a few plays the biggest one being the pick six.
 

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