Deion Branch: Patriots vs. Seahawks stats comparison

[NE39]

Because it has to do with the player value at the time of the trade.

The value of the player at the time is the terms of the trade, by definition. His value at the time of the trade was a 4th round pick because that is what the Pats had to give to get him. If they had given up a 3rd or 5th, then that would have been his value. His "value" is determined by the trade terms.

His performance determines whether he is worth the cost it took to acquire him. In this case it is working out, so it was a good trade by any measure. Some don't work out (see Burgess, Derrick).

In the end, this was a smart trade by the Pats. After unloading Moss they needed help at WR, and Branch may have been the only guy available who could come in and help quickly. That is well worth the 4th round pick, because that is what it took for Seattle to trade him here.

 

[Deus Irae]

The value of the player at the time is the terms of the trade, by definition. His value at the time of the trade was a 4th round pick because that is what the Pats had to give to get him. If they had given up a 3rd or 5th, then that would have been his value. His "value" is determined by the trade terms.

His performance determines whether he is worth the cost it took to acquire him. In this case it is working out, so it was a good trade by any measure. Some don't work out (see Burgess, Derrick).

In the end, this was a smart trade by the Pats. After unloading Moss they needed help at WR, and Branch may have been the only guy available who could come in and help quickly. That is well worth the 4th round pick, because that is what it took for Seattle to trade him here.

If a car is being sold for $10,000 by most dealers and you end up paying $9,000, you got a good deal (steal). If a car is being sold for $10,000 by most dealers and you end up paying $11,000, you paid more than you needed to (overpaid).

Your level of happiness with the purchase is irrelevant, as is the subsequent performance of the vehicle. There are valid reasons to overpay, but that goes to justification.

 

[Bella*chick]

Contextually speaking, the fact that we are a. drowning in draft picks and b. unable to guarantee that any 4th rounder we select will be great or not makes this whole "Well, Branch was a car that someone paid $11,000 even though he was only worth $10,000" (Doesn't it also depend on how badly you need a car and how many other affordable cars in the area are for sale?) very silly.

If you are in the desert and you're thirsty and no one has any water available for miles and miles, you will happily pay 100 bucks for a bottle of Poland Spring and it wil be worth every cent because you a. need it to survive and b. have no other options at all except maybe to drink your own piss. The value of a hundred bucks in the desert (or a hundred draft picks) is nothing to someone wandering the desert who desperately needs water (or a wide receiver who knows your system) to survive.

 

[Digit]

In this case, though, with Deion Branch -

The car is custom-build basically for your scheme. It might be worth -less- to someone else who doesn't need those features, but since it has everything you want and need, you're quite willing to pay for it.

Also, the dealer doesn't -need- to clear the car from his inventory until the new cars are available to bring in when he will need the space, so he'll just let it sit in his lot until he absolutely has to clear it, at which time he can slash his prices. Till then, though, it may as well sit there. So it may be sitting there at a price of 11,000 until the dealer absolutely needs to make a move, in which case he can slash the price to 10,000.

 

[Deus Irae]

Contextually speaking, the fact that we are a. drowning in draft picks and b. unable to guarantee that any 4th rounder we select will be great or not makes this whole "Well, Branch was a car that someone paid $11,000 even though he was only worth $10,000" (Doesn't it also depend on how badly you need a car and how many other affordable cars in the area are for sale?) very silly.

If you are in the desert and you're thirsty and no one has any water available for miles and miles, you will happily pay 100 bucks for a bottle of Poland Spring and it wil be worth every cent because you a. need it to survive and b. have no other options at all except maybe to drink your own piss.

1.) The Patriots weren't in any desert, and any hardship was self-inflicted due to the Moss trade.

2.) Your argument goes to justifying the "why" of overpaying, not to saying that you didn't overpay.

 

[Bella*chick]

1.) The Patriots weren't in any desert, and any hardship was self-inflicted due to the Moss trade.

2.) Your argument goes to justifying the "why" of overpaying, not to saying that you didn't overpay.

It wouldn't be overpaying TO YOU. A hundred bucks in the desert is basically NOTHING to YOU if it's not what you need. That's the whole point.

Everything has a context, Deus. I can't believe how much you are parsing this, it is completely irrelevent.

 

[Bella*chick]

1.) The Patriots weren't in any desert, and any hardship was self-inflicted due to the Moss trade.

Jesus, Mr. Literal, if you end up in a desert because you decided to hike the Sahara by yourself, it still doesn't change the fact that a bottle of water is worth more to your individual circumstances than a hundred bucks.

And are you really saying the Pats just shouldn't have traded Moss? Are we back there again?

 

[Deus Irae]

It wouldn't be overpaying TO YOU. A hundred bucks in the desert is basically NOTHING to YOU if it's not what you need. That's the whole point.

Everything has a context, Deus. I can't believe how much you are parsing this, it is completely irrelevent.

Wait.... I'M parsing? You have got to be kidding.

Hell, you're going to the Sahara desert without water, and ignoring basic economics, in order to defend a draft pick trade from someone who was fine with the player but thought the price paid was a little higher than it needed to be.

 

[TruthSeeker]

Because it has to do with the player value at the time of the trade.

To be more specific, it has to do with what was in your mind (in terms of player value) at the time of the trade.

As has been discussed before, the true value of a trade can be found in actual player production (perhaps dismissing unexpected injuries) after the trade, not any individual's thoughts at the time of the trade.

Deion is well on the way to proving himself much more valuable than a random fourth round pick.

 

[Bella*chick]

Whatever, Deus. I've been around here long enough to know that arguing with you is pointless.

I guess you're right. Lawrence Maroney for Deion Branch was too steep a price to be paid.

You have absolutely no clue about context. None.

 

[Deus Irae]

Whatever, Deus. I've been around here long enough to know that arguing with you is pointless.

I guess you're right. Lawrence Maroney for Deion Branch was too steep a price to be paid.

You have absolutely no clue about context. None.

Maroney wasn't traded for Branch. You probably shouldn't be insulting others about context when you're trying to make a link of that nature.

 

[tobias funke]

I hope you guys realize that Deus acts obtuse on purpose to keep the argument going. Getting upset instead of just moving on is really what he wants from you. Anyone with a brain can see Branch was worth the pick in any context.

 

[Bella*chick]

Maroney wasn't traded for Branch. You probably shouldn't be insulting others about context when you're trying to make a link of that nature.

That's right, Deus. Whatever.

I went back and looked at your posts circa the Moss trade and it was as I remembered. You hated it because we were giving up WAY too much for only a lowly 3rd rounder. You, the mighty Deus, knew far better in all the sage wisdom you possess from your chair behind your computer screen. It was particularly amusing to watch you laud Moss's moneymaking prowess, seeing as he was going to get an extension from the Vikes. Of course, when it shakes out a bit and the 3rd round pick looks like the highway robbery it was, you've moved on to complain that a fourth rounder, which is below third, BTW, is WAAAAY too valuable an asset to give up for a player who can come in and significantly help us right away. NO, now it's that BB brought this all on himself anyway and you, Deus, would have surely not steered the Pats asunder in such a manner.

You wear your "sips not chugs" badge like a medal of honor, as if you somehow have better points because you enjoy being contrarian. Newsflash: you know no more than anyone else and certainly no more than BB. He knows a bit about economics as well, if I recall. Anyone with half a brain can see a fourth was not an overpayment for Branch given our circumstances this year and on draft day. I wish you good luck in locating the other half of your brain.

 

[emoney_33]

Wait.... I'M parsing? You have got to be kidding.

Hell, you're going to the Sahara desert without water, and ignoring basic economics, in order to defend a draft pick trade from someone who was fine with the player but thought the price paid was a little higher than it needed to be.

How can you accuse someone of ignoring basic economics when it is YOU who has shown very little grasp of economics. Deion Branch was not a free-market deal, it was a single seller. Your free-market value of Branch is irrelevant, as is your opinion that they could have gotten Branch for less than a 4th. There are likely 2 options at the time of the trade. Get Branch for a 4th or don't get Branch at all, end of story. The Seahawks basically had a monopoly on experienced Patriots receivers that the Patriots wanted/needed.

You are technically overpaying for EVERYTHING you purchase because someone has to profit. There is no set value for products. Economics does not work in a black and white world where a product always has a specific value. The price/value of any product is always determined by context at any given time, including but not limited to supply and demand.

Alas, you leave yourself with one point that you can argue till death even though it's childish to nitpick down to tiny details just to never admit "defeat". They "overpaid", and no one can ever argue with that because you set the base value of Branch. But in reality overpaying is actually paying more than YOU personally had to pay. The Patriots simply could NOT get Branch for less than a 4th, regardless of the perfect fantasy world you live in where you get him for a 5th because you are a shrewd negotiator even though you have 0 inside information. Thus the Patriots did NOT overpay. Just like when oil prices go up, you aren't overpaying, the context/circumstance of the time are just different.

 

[Deus Irae]

That's right, Deus. Whatever.

I went back and looked at your posts circa the Moss trade and it was as I remembered. You hated it because we were giving up WAY too much for only a lowly 3rd rounder. You, the mighty Deus, knew far better in all the sage wisdom you possess from your chair behind your computer screen. It was particularly amusing to watch you laud Moss's moneymaking prowess, seeing as he was going to get an extension from the Vikes. Of course, when it shakes out a bit and the 3rd round pick looks like the highway robbery it was, you've moved on to complain that a fourth rounder, which is below third, BTW, is WAAAAY too valuable an asset to give up for a player who can come in and significantly help us right away. NO, now it's that BB brought this all on himself anyway and you, Deus, would have surely not steered the Pats asunder in such a manner.

Actually, while I didn't think they got enough compensation, my main issue with the Moss trade was that it was done during the season.

As for the extension, I noted what was being reported, and I stated exactly that.

He's reportedly going to get an extension from Minnesota. He wasn't getting one from New England. How's that a lousy job of making more money?

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england...ike-moss-trade-because-page6.html#post2268417

The man who, along with Simmons, was breaking the story, was reporting about the Vikings wanting to do an extension.

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/676752-merged-again-again-i-do-dont-like-moss-trade-because-page9.html#post2268909

You wear your "sips not chugs" badge like a medal of honor, as if you somehow have better points because you enjoy being contrarian. Newsflash: you know no more than anyone else and certainly no more than BB. He knows a bit about economics as well, if I recall. Anyone with half a brain can see a fourth was not an overpayment for Branch given our circumstances this year and on draft day. I wish you good luck in locating the other half of your brain.

You don't understand overpay/underpay, yet you're insulting my brain.
How is it possible that you miss that irony?

 

[Patriot_in_NY]

Dues, you do know your argument looks pretty dumb with the team at 9-2 with the offense clicking on all cylinders. It was obviously the right move to dump Moss and then pick up Branch.

Arguing the "compensation" argument is ******ed at this point. If you are trying to imply that a 3rd is "too much" for that, then you look pretty foolish to anyone with a clue. Branch in this offense was clearly worth a 3rd. No two ways about it.

 

[Deus Irae]

I hope you guys realize that Deus acts obtuse on purpose to keep the argument going. Getting upset instead of just moving on is really what he wants from you. Anyone with a brain can see Branch was worth the pick in any context.

Your favorite food/game/toy/tool costs $X at 9 of the 10 stores in your town. It costs $2X at the 10th store. There may be perfectly valid reasons for you to purchase it at that 10th store (hometown story v. mega stores, friend's store, "always shop there because other prices are lower", etc...), and you may be perfectly content with paying the extra money for one of those reasons, but you still overpay, when compared to what you could have paid, if you buy it at store #10.

Now, specific to the trade... As I noted at the time:

Yeah... I'm fine with bringing Branch in. It's just the compensation. Even without the Moss trade, the team really had use for another outside receiver....

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/679608-schefter-branch-new-england-4th-round-pick-page14.html#post2281866

I'm with you on your take of Price in the training camp/exhibitions. That's why I don't get the idea of playing the "younger guys" instead of bringing in someone like Branch. The "younger guys" are Slater and Price...

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/679608-schefter-branch-new-england-4th-round-pick-page13.html#post2281714

I was defending the player acquisition, as far as the player went. My only contention was that there was an overpay. That's what I noted in response to Unoriginal's post. There was nothing more to it than that until Bellachick decided to get snarky.

 

[PatsFan2]

One thing i have to say is, i wish Welker would give Branch his old #83 back Branch > Welker.

 

[Bella*chick]

I understand it just fine, Deus. YOU don't. You don't at all.

To run this by another set of ears, I asked my econ major husband, who never misses a chance to tell me I'm talking out of my butt. You're wrong. Sorry.

The first thing he asked is if a dollar to me is worth the same as a dollar to a homeless guy. Gasp. Context!

The value of a fourth rounder to the New England Patriots who have too many picks to know what to do with is less than the value to a team without many high round picks. What is overpaying to one team is not to another.

You think everything has ONE value PERIOD. Haven't you ever bought trading cards? I did and I sold artwork too. The value of a signed picture was what someone would pay for it, what it was worth to them.

Not to mention, your whole car analogy is pretty narrow. If a car is priced at 10,000 and you pay 9 grand for it, you didn't get a steal if the car craps out and won't run. You may as well have paid a buck. What happens after a transaction matters.

 

[emoney_33]

Your favorite food/game/toy/tool costs $X at 9 of the 10 stores in your town. It costs $2X at the 10th store. There may be perfectly valid reasons for you to purchase it at that 10th store (hometown story v. mega stores, friend's store, "always shop there because other prices are lower", etc...), and you may be perfectly content with paying the extra money for one of those reasons, but you still overpay, when compared to what you could have paid, if you buy it at store #10.

:facepalm:

There was ONE store (Seahawks) that were selling your favorite food/game/toy/tool (Branch) and they charged $X (4th round pick) for it. You either pay it or you don't get your guy, there is NO OTHER store to go to. Good grief, stop squirming.

Honestly though, it's probably time to just stop feeding this guy's need for argument.