Curious to hear everyone's thoughts on Welker

[MoLewisrocks]

Larry Fitz and Johnson can do a lot more than Welker can, and defenses will commit more resources to try to stop them.

I dont think Megatron is #1, he's #1 at out-jumping everyone to the ball, as Moss was in his day, but Moss was also not very complete, Megatron doesnt have nearly the route running ability that Larry Fitz does, that might be partially due to his height, which makes it a lot more difficult to make quick cuts.

So there, I dont think Megatron can do all of what Welker does but I think Fitz and Andre can do a lot of what Welker does, much of it better, and they can do a bunch of stuff Welker can't.

Other than start as #1 WR's by default...I'm not so sure they are or can. Had Welker simply started with Brady since 2005 - even as a #2 which is what he was until 2010 - rather than 2007 his numbers match up pretty well with two guys who were #1 starters their entire careers. And then of course you have his ST play...adding in 6000+ yards neither of them has ever contributed. Wes has been the #1 here since 2010 and he's faced the same level of committed attention they do and still he's put up the numbers.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think Welker deserves elite money because I don't think he's an elite receiver, he simply can't do the things that Larry Fitz and Andre Johnson can.

Sorry if you don't like that but it's my opinion, I think we'll soon find that it's BB's opinion as well.

Just a follow up on this one, since you were talking about BB's opinion....

Patriots WR Wes Welker has officially had the franchise tag placed on him, according to a league source

https://twitter.com/GregABedard/statuses/176754132940636160?_escaped_fragment_=/GregABedard/status/176754132940636160#!/GregABedard/status/176754132940636160

BB seems to think Welker's good enough that he was willing to franchise him (at what's projected to be about $9.4 million) in order to keep him off the market.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Patriots reportedly offered $16m over 2 years to Welker. Now, they'll reportedly be paying about $9.4 for one year, and will have to pay somewhere around $11.3m if they try the same strategy again next season. So, barring injury, Welker is now in position to get $20.7m (give or take) from the Patriots in that same 2 year stretch.

If the reports are true, the Patriots really screwed this up.

 

[MassPats38]

The Patriots reportedly offered $16m over 2 years to Welker. Now, they'll reportedly be paying about $9.4 for one year, and will have to pay somewhere around $11.3m if they try the same strategy again next season. So, barring injury, Welker is now in position to get $20.7m (give or take) from the Patriots in that same 2 year stretch.

If the reports are true, the Patriots really screwed this up.

Do you believe they stand pat with the franchise tag, or do the Pats use the tag as security while working out a long-term deal that more closely approximates the original offer?

I still believe this ends with a multi-year deal and larger bonus payment. If Welker was demanding to be paid at the top of the receiver ranks, then the $20.7 million figure is likely not that awful by comparison.

 

[JackBauer]

The Patriots reportedly offered $16m over 2 years to Welker. Now, they'll reportedly be paying about $9.4 for one year, and will have to pay somewhere around $11.3m if they try the same strategy again next season. So, barring injury, Welker is now in position to get $20.7m (give or take) from the Patriots in that same 2 year stretch.

If the reports are true, the Patriots really screwed this up.

Well, they could always franchise and trade him!

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Yeah, it's going to take at least $20M guaranteed to get him signed to a long term deal - but that likely was the case all along, so there really isn't any screw up, despite Deus need to spin it as such.

It's unfortunate they didn't get him extended after the 2009 season, but the ACL eliminated that possibility and the lockout kind of exacerbated that because they needed to see him come all the way back and he hadn't in 2009.

 

[Deus Irae]

Do you believe they stand pat with the franchise tag, or do the Pats use the tag as security while working out a long-term deal that more closely approximates the original offer?

I still believe this ends with a multi-year deal and larger bonus payment. If Welker was demanding to be paid at the top of the receiver ranks, then the $20.7 million figure is likely not that awful by comparison.

I'm sure that they are looking to work out a deal. My point is that you can't be offering a deal with so much less of a guarantee than the player would get via the franchise tag, unless you're looking at tag-and-trade. If you're going to tag the WR, you have to get the guarantee at least close to the $20+ million, even if you're looking to be lower with the overall amount (i.e. $21 million guarantee in a 4 year deal for, say, $34 million total). You can't come up more than $4million short.

I think some people are forgetting the context with Welker, where his contract had been underpaying him for years and the Patriots didn't work out some way to increase his compensation during the years of that contract.

 

[Snake Eyes]

Just a follow up on this one, since you were talking about BB's opinion....



https://twitter.com/GregABedard/statuses/176754132940636160?_escaped_fragment_=/GregABedard/status/176754132940636160#!/GregABedard/status/176754132940636160

BB seems to think Welker's good enough that he was willing to franchise him (at what's projected to be about $9.4 million) in order to keep him off the market.

Yes, and it makes sense because BB can control what happens to him. This can allow him to sign Reggie Wayne, Brandon Lloyd, and then decide what to do with Welker. If Welker were to leave any potential WR free agents would suddenly have a lot more leverage.

I want Welker to stay and retire a Patriot, I just think he needs to be reasonable and not expect huge money that will put a real dent in the teams ability to the sign guys necessary to being hime a few Lombardis.

 

[Deus Irae]

Well, they could always franchise and trade him!

Yes, and the same people griping about the idea of giving a very low 1st and big money to Wallace will insist that there are 31 teams waiting to dump off 1sts and big money for the older receiver that is Welker. Somehow, the arguments will be "but that's different!".

 

[Deus Irae]

The 120-plus catch season was the second time in Welker’s career he has passed the 120-reception mark (123 in 2009 and 122 in 2011), joining Cris Carter (122 in 1995 and 122 in 1994) as the only players to have 120-plus receptions twice in a career.

Welker owns the top four single-season reception totals in New England history, with a team record 123 in 2009, 122 in 2011, 112 in 2007 and 111 in 2008. Welker joins Marvin Harrison and Jerry Rice as the only players in NFL history with four 100-catch seasons.

Patriots Name WR Wes Welker as 2012 Franchise Player

But these guys are easy to find just lying around in the unemployment lines of our nation...

 

[MassPats38]

I'm sure that they are looking to work out a deal. My point is that you can't be offering a deal with so much less of a guarantee than the player would get via the franchise tag, unless you're looking at tag-and-trade. If you're going to tag the WR, you have to get the guarantee at least close to the $20+ million, even if you're looking to be lower with the overall amount (i.e. $21 million guarantee in a 4 year deal for, say, $34 million total). You can't come up more than $4million short.

Again, assuming the $8 million figure is accurate. After the Mankins discussion and his commentary on the negotiations and relationship after-the-fact, I am never overly confident on what we hear.

I would agree offering a figure below the tag, with free agency looming, is unlikely to be effective. Then again, with this discount tag amount in comparison to previous years, the Pats can tag him twice and reduce future contract offers based on age, which may result in a lower overall total. A ruthless way to proceed given inury possibilities to Welker, but potentially cost effective. I for one hope for the reasonable, long-term deal to put this discussion to bed.

 

[Deus Irae]

Again, assuming the $8 million figure is accurate. After the Mankins discussion and his commentary on the negotiations and relationship after-the-fact, I am never overly confident on what we hear.

I would agree offering a figure below the tag, with free agency looming, is unlikely to be effective. Then again, with this discount tag amount in comparison to previous years, the Pats can tag him twice and reduce future contract offers based on age, which may result in a lower overall total. A ruthless way to proceed given inury possibilities to Welker, but potentially cost effective. I for one hope for the reasonable, long-term deal to put this discussion to bed.

I believe the 120% rule is still in effect with the new CBA, so the discount tag rule will be meaningless next year, in terms of dealing with Welker.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I think some people are forgetting the context with Welker, where his contract had been underpaying him for years and the Patriots didn't work out some way to increase his compensation during the years of that contract.

The Pats are not going to overpay him on the next contract because he was underpaid in the prior one.

I don't recall any examples of them doing so. They paid market value for the players they chose to lock up.

 

[Deus Irae]

The Pats are not going to overpay him on the next contract because he was underpaid in the prior one.

I don't recall any examples of them doing so. They paid market value for the players they chose to lock up.

That's not something I either said or implied, so I don't know why you'd bother posting about it.

 

[RobertWeathers]

That's not something I either said or implied, so I don't know why you'd bother posting about it.

What is the context that you are referring to then? It seemed that you implied that the Pats underpaid him in his first deal and they did not re-do his deal so they could pay him more.

My comment was that historically speaking, the Patriots do not factor past contractual situations into their current negotiations with the player.

Thats it.

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Again, assuming the $8 million figure is accurate. After the Mankins discussion and his commentary on the negotiations and relationship after-the-fact, I am never overly confident on what we hear.

I would agree offering a figure below the tag, with free agency looming, is unlikely to be effective. Then again, with this discount tag amount in comparison to previous years, the Pats can tag him twice and reduce future contract offers based on age, which may result in a lower overall total. A ruthless way to proceed given inury possibilities to Welker, but potentially cost effective. I for one hope for the reasonable, long-term deal to put this discussion to bed.

Yup, they could tag him in 2012 and 2013 and take $9.4M and $11.3M cap hits in the flat cap years and then offer him a one year deal at $3M+ in 2014 when the cap rises dramatically and still have paid him 3 x 8 only had it oddly hurt them cap wise... Makes no sense. They could also sign him to a phony 10 year $90M deal with $20M guaranteed and a $20M option bonus due in 2015 and cut him after 3 years with a $3M dead cap...just like Stinko's... I just don't know why they always have to make it like pulling teeth. Eventually they have to find a middle ground and do the right thing. In Mankins case they didn't even bother, they just caved...after squeezing another half a season out of him inexpensively.

Welker deserves better. He's basically been a pro bowl caliber receiver for all 5 years he's been here, even coming off an ACL, and a legit pro bowler 4 years running and an all pro in two of his last three seasons. He's been all in and given 110% from day one and this is the kind of player they need to send a locker room message with...and they aren't sending the right one so far... The message should be we value and reward consistent effort and excellence.

 

[Deus Irae]

What is the context that you are referring to then? It seemed that you implied that the Pats underpaid him in his first deal and they did not re-do his deal so they could pay him more.

My comment was that historically speaking, the Patriots do not factor past contractual situations into their current negotiations with the player.

Thats it.

Your comment was about overpayment.

The Pats are not going to overpay him on the next contract because he was underpaid in the prior one.

I didn't write about overpayment, and I didn't imply overpayment. Let's just leave it at that.

 

[IcyPatriot]

Patriots receiver Wes Welker tweeted the following tonight:

"Glad that I will be a Patriot in 2012. and hopefully '13,'14,'15,'16,'17,'18.........."

Welker tweets on tag - New England Patriots Blog - ESPN Boston

 

[MoLewisrocks]

Doesn't sound like a guy planning on holding out...

 

[IcyPatriot]

Doesn't sound like a guy planning on holding out...

Also sounds like a guy who's contract framework is very close ...
More than likely waiting for Ana's approval.