PatsFans.com Menu
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans
PatsFans.com - The Hub For New England Patriots Fans

Curious to hear everyone's thoughts on Welker

Status
Not open for further replies.
Not at all, I still think we'd survive without him. I'm not against re-signing Welker and I've never said I am. Why wouldn't they see short term value? I'm just saying I wouldn't complain if they moved on and used the money saved productively elsewhere (like say, signing Williams on D and evening out the cap balance between O and D a little). If they sing him to an economic deal then great. I don't want to pay him for 4 years though. Past 32 I don't see much value in him.

he'd help your team, but history suggests we can survive without. Brady has won rings with very average receiving corps and came close to going to a 4th Super Bowl in 6 years with pretty much no receiving corps at all.

You made a claim that Brady makes Welker. That's what I responded to, because it's just such a ridiculous claim, and 2008 (111 catches, 1165 yards) should have made that clear. The rest of your post wasn't important to me, as that sort of stuff has been dealt with time and again.
 
Last edited:
I smell a franchise tag followed by a long-term deal between now and the start of training camp.

Agreed. Why would he want to leave here as long as he has TB and this system? We need a backup kicker on the roster, too. He's perfect for us and were perfect for him. Call it fan-boy love but Wes is the man. They'll find a way to keep him beyond the Franch. Tag.
 
Not at all, I still think we'd survive without him. I'm not against re-signing Welker and I've never said I am. Why wouldn't they see short term value? I'm just saying I wouldn't complain if they moved on and used the money saved productively elsewhere (like say, signing Williams on D and evening out the cap balance between O and D a little). If they sing him to an economic deal then great. I don't want to pay him for 4 years though. Past 32 I don't see much value in him.

he'd help your team, but history suggests we can survive without. Brady has won rings with very average receiving corps and came close to going to a 4th Super Bowl in 6 years with pretty much no receiving corps at all.

You want Welker back but not to a ridiculous contract that spans longer than he will be able to play at a high level. That's understandable and I get it. However, using the argument that we could survive without him because we won 3 Super Bowls and almost went to a 4th without him contradicts your idea that we could use that cap savings to sign Mario Williams. Who were the elite-level, expensive pass rushers we had on our team when we won 3 Super Bowls and almost went to a 4th?

Not that I wouldn't like to have Mario on the Pats, just pointing out it contradicts your reasoning that losing Welker wouldn't kill us.
 
You made a claim that Brady makes Welker. That's what I responded to, because it's just such a ridiculous claim, and 2008 (111 catches, 1165 yards) should have made that clear. The rest of your post wasn't important to me, as that sort of stuff has been dealt with time and again.

That is so understated and true. Wes and Randy had great seasons that year and made Matt look great. 11-5 and getting a snub sucked hard, meanwhile 8-8's got in. Wes is great on his own. Keep him here for God's Sake!!!
 
Yes, I'm still bitter about going 11-5 and not making the playoffs. I'll get over it......Uhmmm..... never?
 
You want Welker back but not to a ridiculous contract that spans longer than he will be able to play at a high level. That's understandable and I get it. However, using the argument that we could survive without him because we won 3 Super Bowls and almost went to a 4th without him contradicts your idea that we could use that cap savings to sign Mario Williams. Who were the elite-level, expensive pass rushers we had on our team when we won 3 Super Bowls and almost went to a 4th?

Not that I wouldn't like to have Mario on the Pats, just pointing out it contradicts your reasoning that losing Welker wouldn't kill us.

I haven't used solely that argument. I've said it a tonne of time. Welker'#s a slot receiver playing a split end the majority of the time now. He's not a true slot receiver anymore like he was when 3 WR sets were common place at the Patriots. Most games you can count the amount of times we go to 3 WRs on one hand. However if you look at our team, who's the true split end on it? We have Ochocinco who can't grasp the offense fast enough to live up to Belichick's expectations.

We have a huge abundance of players who are shorter posession receivers. All of them are. We have the TEs and, with Edelman and a Branch re-signing, would have other guys who could plug the middle when needed. That production won't stop. With a draft pick and a free agency move we can then ofcus on bringing in a true split end who can get off of press and stretch the field with his legs and body.

I've re-watched a tonne of tape since the Super Bowl and it's scary how easy teams can just clog the middle if they have the corners to get physical with Branch and Welker. We can't out match physical corners with who we have at WR. We';re not quite an offense based solely on west coast ideals but we rely on precision and timing as much as any team and when Welker and Branch both show inability to get off of their men at the point of attack we can find ourselves in sticky situations. Trust me, if Brady didn't have the outstanding line he has in front of him sometimes you'd see him get hit an awful lot more. It's becoming more and more common as time goes on.

If we drafted and through free agency brought in someone who is more of a true split end, things would be very different. We have the guys to solidfy production inside the numbers even without Welker, but we need to bring in a factor Welker doesn't bring in to the offense.

Now that doesn't mean I wouldn't take him at all, but if I go by everything I have said he's not worth top receiver money to us. Factor in it looks like he wants a long term deal and again, we're a little stuck. Can we make up production without Welker? Yes, I think we can. It gets further backed up by my point that in our dynasty days we had no elite WRs. Brady made those players who they were and I think a lot of Welker's success comes down to Brady. He showed glimpses at San Diego and Miami but if he was that special, don't you think he would have elevated players around him back then? Yes he likely would have. Brady makes him a much better player as he has done a lot of WRs in his time as a starter here.

Brady enables us to do a hell of a lot and I would value $10 million give or take on a premier pass rusher that will elevate the defense much more than a slot receiver because right now pass rush is still our biggest problem. Our pass rush was no better than last seasons...people just look at Carter and Anderson getting double digit figures apiece and think that we were far better. In 2010 it was just spread around much more widely. We didn't have elite pass rushers in those days no, but we had a hell of a better defense.

Saying all that I really want to keep him..adn if we could sign Mario up as well that would be fantastic...but it has to be for the right money. If Welker wants too much, I think we could survive. We can tag and get picks for him now but two years down the line we co9uld get very little.

What are everyone's thoughts on why we haven't used the tag at all yet? Hard balling or just showing Welker the respect he deserves and signifying that we want to work a deal rather than have to use our tag on him?
 
Last edited:
It kills me sometimes to read everyone posting arguements about a team they both beleive in and love, yet can't help themselves to resorting to petty points that lead to petty arguments when really all we want is the same thing. We want nothing more than to see our team win.

Why hate on each other?
 
Last edited:
It kills me sometimes to read everyone posting arguements about a team they both beleive in and love, yet can't help themselves to resorting to petty points that lead to petty arguments when really all we want is the same thing. We want nothing more than to see our team win.
Why hate on each other?

Who's hating on who?

Debate is healthy. Just because people disagree it doesn't necessarily mean they're slating the others opinion. There's more often than not two sides to every debate.

It only gets nasty when people start slating someone else's opinion. There's a couple of people on these forums that like doing that from time to time unfortunately but for the most part this board is full of respectful members
 
Who's hating on who?

Debate is healthy. Just because people disagree it doesn't necessarily mean they're slating the others opinion. There's more often than not two sides to every debate.

It only gets nasty when people start slating someone else's opinion. There's a couple of people on these forums that like doing that from time to time unfortunately but for the most part this board is full of respectful members

True. Debate is a healthy enrichment to every board, but were (mostly) all here for the same reason. There are some that come here for the mere magnet of arguements is all I'm saying.

I have no proplem with you UK, and I understand your position, but there are those that come here only for the matter of providing discourse. Sometimes it's just obnoxious and annoying and takes away from the site.

Oh, BTW, I love the Patriots. Hope that clarrifies me to you because I know you feel the same.
 
Last edited:
True. Debate is a healthy enrichment to every board, but were (mostly) all here for the same reason. There are some that come here for the mere magnet of arguements is all I'm saying.

I have no proplem with you UK, and I understand your position, but there are those that come here only for the matter of providing discourse. Sometimes it's just obnoxious and annoying and takes away from the site.

Oh, BTW, I love the Patriots. Hope that clarrifies me to you because I know you feel the same.

Yup, every forum gets it fair share of trolls From my experience here so far, the mods to a terrific job of clamping down on them!
 
Assuming the report is true, which is a huge assumption of course--I think we now all realize what the holdup is.

IMO--16 guaranteed over 2 yrs is a lot more than I would've thought, over such a short amount of time anyway. I expected something in the early 20's (guaranteed) or so over the life of the deal, which I also guessed at being 3-4 yrs.

The money's good..the guaranteed money is good..the only problem is of course, the fact that it is a low number of year deal.

With all of the creativity involved with some of these mega-deals between front office and agency, is it too much to expect them to be able to get a deal done that offers a longer length of deal for Welker + offers the NEP an "out" of sorts in the 4th year (for example--could be the 3rd year)? I know there would be a dead cap hit no matter what, but couldn't they minimize that to their best extent to make both sides happy?

I'm no contractual genius, and I know we have some great numbers guys here who understand the ins/outs of complex deals, so what could some of the most simplistic/realistic potential deals be in this scenario?
 
Last edited:
Yup, every forum gets it fair share of trolls From my experience here so far, the mods to a terrific job of clamping down on them!

Indeed they do. Cheers to them my freind from across the pond!
 
Andy I understand where your going with that, my thought process is he's a great player for 2 more years but going into year 3 declines and players that rely on quickness not top end speed not great body control not overpowering defenders, you could have as much heart as anyone and if you rely on your initial quickness to get separation it'll fade fast.

Players who rely on top end speed go first. And great body control and generally surehandedness and instincts are among Welker's repetoir, and those go last.

One thing i've always admired about BB is making a tough business decision and not making it a personal emotional one.

He will get rid of a player 2 years faster, than 2 years too late, for instance, Willie, Mike, Wes, Jabar, Ty, Randy, Bruce Armstrong, Chris Slade, Ben Coates.

Almost all these players had arguably 2 solid years left, and he parted ways and rebuilt without these guys, now going by that logic if we can resign Welker to a contract that doesn't have any or little guaranteed money into year 3 and doesn't hurt the teams chance to upgrade other areas over the next 2 years that contract would make sense.

Willie didn't have one more year left. Ask RAC... Vrabel didn't have any solid years left, he started for KC because they had no options and needed him as RAC did Willie to sell the system - so they overpaid, and KC just for a year. Second year he got short money. Letting JAB go for 4/$10M was a mistake. Been looking for that guy ever since. Ty was in a wheelchair when he asked to be released. They wanted him on a restructure that would have guaranteed him the remaining money on his contract but added 2 more years at the same rate unguaranteed for cap purposes. He never quite made the difference back on all his stops thereafter. Randy was moved on from for other reasons.

On the other hand if he wants to get paid and wants security for his wife and possible family for years past his playing time and wants Tom and Giselle type lifestyle he's not getting it in New England where is a team like Seattle or Washington would break the bank for him where is we wouldn't.

Plus the free agent market is flooded as well is the draft with plug and play receivers so I think the Patriots are value shopping, ala LLoyd, or if they do break the bank its for a dynamic player like Wallace or a Jackson who has 3 to 4 years of dominant play vs 2.

Unfortunately for nostalgic fans BB doesn't look as past performance for rewards he looks at in his words this week.

In alot of ways I believe a players past contributions is not looked at as what they wanna give the player but what can that player contribute in the hear and now.

Welker isn't asking for $18M per and they all want security for the remainder of their lives because of the price they pay in playing the game you watch from your couch for a decade or more. Unlike many fans, Belichick actually gets that and doesn't begrudge them. The FA market and the draft are flooded with WR most of whom based on a decade of experience can not be plugged into and play in this system. Lloyd represents value only if he wants a reasonable deal since he too is 31 and a lot less productive than Welker in his best 2 seasons in a less demanding version of this system. Wallace may well be a one trick pony as his HC opined and his production fell off a cliff in the second half of just his third season. Jackson is a potential season long suspension waiting to happen and he likely wants a lot more than Wes.

It's a tough business but that's also how the Patriots have stayed so competitive in the salary cap era, and why I say have your Patriots jersey with velcro lettering on the name on the jersey because things change, especially with the Belichick led Patriots.

If they resign Wes Welker to a huge non cap friendly deal than I will completely eat crow and the philosophy has changed out of desperation in my humble opinion. Either way 14 and 2 or 2 and 14 I'm still a fan here in Lancaster PA.

They will never sign any player to a huge non cap friendly deal, and you don't seem to know what one of those entails, so you're really insulating yourself from the crow eating... A 4 year $32M+ deal could and actually would be a lot more cap friendly than a 2 year $16M fully guaranteed deal because the team can structure it so that the cap hits are below average in the first two cap neutral seasons and above average thereafter with the option to leverage the player into a restructure in year 3 or 4 or cut his ass in year 4 with minimal dead cap consequences.
 
I'm going to get bricks thrown at me in this forum but i've said since day one my thought process is they do not sign Welker to a long term deal if he wants
top 5 wr money, he's 31 and while he makes a ton of receptions, and has ton of heart and came from a knee injury stronger and better than you or I ever could.
Wes Welker 5 years ago signs a cap friendly deal even with the production he had the last few years.
The new Hollywood Welker and here comes the hate you know new beautiful wife wants to live some place warm, as a free agent I see Arizona or even Tampa bay for a spot for him, don't discount Washington in the running.
I hope if they cant make a deal the Patriots do whats better for the team by franchising and trading him outside of the division for good compensation.
We all know BB and Adams will look to part with a player 2 years early vs keep them 2 years to late.
That's why I always say other then number 12 the name on the Patriots jerseys should be in velcro that way we can be ready for the inevitable.

You apparently weren't following the commentary here 5 years ago when many believed erroneously that the Pats wildly overpaid for a slot receiver/punt returner... Both in draft compensation and contract. And Bill seldom trades them 2 years early, usually he's right about on time unless he's trading them for other reasons.
 
I believe Welker wants more then 3 years and more then $7.5M per (in fact 5 years for $45M with $17.5M - too much for a small WR of his age with his injury history. He's not worth the one year price either - it will badly crimp our FA activities.

We lock him up and then deal him - for a 2nd and a 5th.

Sign Lloyd and two other pretty solid FA's, and then the draft.

Note the 2nd and 5th may be for 2013 draft as this may run into the summer/early next season before it's done - see Branch's issues before the Seattle trade.

People need to grasp that this is not the NBA or MLB and in the NFL there are no sign and trade deals because of the cap and there are very few tag and trade deals because the player has to sign the tag in order to get traded and most won't do it for that reason until July or August. And for all that time their cap hit effectively crimps all the FA activities you grass is greener guys long for. And you would do well to remember how the Branch trade (which was forced and not sought by NE) season panned out for a team that at the time had a lot better and more talented defense...not to mention at the time two pretty highly thought of first round TE's and a former SD first round WR and a thumper RB and a first round RB people were still pretty high on coming off his rookie season and arguably the best 3rd down back in the league.
 
Patriots reportedly offered him 2 years, $16 million fully guaranteed during the regular season according to Bedard and Young.

To me, it does't seem like the Patriots see Welker as having long term value. If they do, it's going to be top heavy and decline steeply after two years. They ahve two of the league's top two TEs on offense to look at in two years and I think the team would definitely like to sign both.

Saying the two sides are 'far apart' would definitely be an understatement. They are worlds apart. We've got by for a decade with Brady and sometimes average wide receivers and in our dynasty days it was our defense which propped the offense up when it had to. I prefer those days. Tag Welker, trade him (he's going to ask for too much) and bring in Williams and stack up on WRs in FA and the draft. Re-sign Branch to a veteran deal and restructure Ocho's contract.

I like Meachem in free agency or Lloyd.

Branch and Givens in their primes and Bingo and Chief even in their dotage were a far cry from Branch in his dotage and Stinko in whatever comes beyond dotage. Those two will be competing for 1 roster spot (the 4th WR who doesn't play on ST) come August and if Lloyd - who will be a year older than Wes this summer - were to get injured (and he's probably looking for 4/$5M+) or Meacham (who probably wants that much as well) doesn't really pan out here, either as more than a 3rd or 4th option WR (which is why he's available) then what? We can just watch the two young TE's grapple with double coverage?

The grass isn't always greener works both ways. Fans just seldom grasp than until it's too late to undo the damage that's been done. These two guys are replacements for what Ocho was supposed to do, not what Welker consistently does.
 
I miss the days when Patriots fans were more reasonable about contracts, and didn't approach every free agency situation as if it were their personal money on the line and they were Ebenezer Scrooge (pre-ghosts).

Not sure when those days were because when I joined here in early 2005 it was to protest insane calls for Brady, with whom the team was negotiating an extension of their choice on the heels of the third Lombardi in four years, to take whatever deal the team was offering him and be glad for it or hit the road...
 
Assuming the report is true, which is a huge assumption of course--I think we now all realize what the holdup is.

IMO--16 guaranteed over 2 yrs is a lot more than I would've thought, over such a short amount of time anyway. I expected something in the early 20's (guaranteed) or so over the life of the deal, which I also guessed at being 3-4 yrs.

The money's good..the guaranteed money is good..the only problem is of course, the fact that it is a low number of year deal.

With all of the creativity involved with some of these mega-deals between front office and agency, is it too much to expect them to be able to get a deal done that offers a longer length of deal for Welker + offers the NEP an "out" of sorts in the 4th year (for example--could be the 3rd year)? I know there would be a dead cap hit no matter what, but couldn't they minimize that to their best extent to make both sides happy?

I'm no contractual genius, and I know we have some great numbers guys here who understand the ins/outs of complex deals, so what could some of the most simplistic/realistic potential deals be in this scenario?

The deal that ESPN Boston and Mike Reiss came up with as fair is 4/$38.5M with $22M guaranteed. I had opined a while ago that I felt a 4/$34M plus incentives with $20M+/- guaranteed deal would be fair and reasonable IMO - so Reiss and I are at least in each other's ballparks. Depending on how much of the guaranteed money is signing bonus that is amortized over the 4 years, I'd choose $12M, that deal could become a 3 year $27M+ deal with potential dead cap of $3M and $5M in cap saving if he fell off a cliff after year 3 and they cut him absent a reduction in 2015 salary because he'd have received most if not all of his guaranteed money in the first two seasons. between signing bonus and salary. His $6M in dead cap after year two would almost implicitly guarantee he saw year 3 although it could be at a reduced salary if they really felt his production was dropping off. I don't think it will be that soon. Maybe not even in year 4, at least dramatically to the point he wouldn't still be worth an $11M cap hit by then under a $140M+ cap. Top 5 WR's by then will probably be averaging close to $15M. His cap hit for 2012 and 2013 could be $6M with $10M and $11M on the back end after the TV money kicks in.
 
The deal that ESPN Boston and Mike Reiss came up with as fair is 4/$38.5M with $22M guaranteed. I had opined a while ago that I felt a 4/$34M plus incentives with $20M+/- guaranteed deal would be fair and reasonable IMO - so Reiss and I are at least in each other's ballparks. Depending on how much of the guaranteed money is signing bonus that is amortized over the 4 years, I'd choose $12M, that deal could become a 3 year $27M+ deal with potential dead cap of $3M and $5M in cap saving if he fell off a cliff after year 3 and they cut him absent a reduction in 2015 salary because he'd have received most if not all of his guaranteed money in the first two seasons. between signing bonus and salary. His $6M in dead cap after year two would almost implicitly guarantee he saw year 3 although it could be at a reduced salary if they really felt his production was dropping off. I don't think it will be that soon. Maybe not even in year 4, at least dramatically to the point he wouldn't still be worth an $11M cap hit by then under a $140M+ cap. Top 5 WR's by then will probably be averaging close to $15M. His cap hit for 2012 and 2013 could be $6M with $10M and $11M on the back end after the TV money kicks in.

During this past season I think the Pats should have offered 3 yrs/ $24M instead of 2 yrs/$16M. Why would Welker sign a 2 yr deal when he's 30, esp at $8M/yr? I understand he wasn't a free agent at the time and he would have made out much better in salary for last year but it doesn't seem very enticing to me from WW's perspective when he knows there is pressure from the Pats fanbase/media to resign him long term.

At this point, if I'm the Pats I don't think I would sign him to that 4 yr/$38M contract Reiss is pitching. Depends on how it's structured but that's a lot of dough for a guy who's 31.
 
During this past season I think the Pats should have offered 3 yrs/ $24M instead of 2 yrs/$16M. Why would Welker sign a 2 yr deal when he's 30, esp at $8M/yr? I understand he wasn't a free agent at the time and he would have made out much better in salary for last year but it doesn't seem very enticing to me from WW's perspective when he knows there is pressure from the Pats fanbase/media to resign him long term.

At this point, if I'm the Pats I don't think I would sign him to that 4 yr/$38M contract Reiss is pitching. Depends on how it's structured but that's a lot of dough for a guy who's 31.

All that matters in any of these deals is the guaranteed money. The amount of signing bonus and length of deal will impact dead cap, but almost every deal on every team has to accommodate some level of dead cap every season. IR is a form of dead cap. Bill has screwed up on deals that have cost a lot more to walk away from than Welker's would even in year 3. The team was essentially saying we will guarantee you the entire deal at 2 years rather than deal with dead cap on a longer deal. If he went down in a heep in game one this season, as we know a player can...they'd be on the hook for $16M if he never played another down. And the cap hits on that would be $8M per for all intents and purposes. A better risk/reward calculation in my opinion is to spread the risk and get the same reward or a little more for maybe $4-6M more up front. Hell, they wasted that much on Ocho last season and the world didn't come to an end as a result. We just lost another superbowl because we came up a couple of plays short. They could have picked a better option as 5th WR for that money, but it's not like we missed out on a defensive player Bill wanted as a result (unless of course it was Goldson...). And whose to say even if we did that it would have been the kind of move that altered the outcome.

And FWIW I think they should have offered him 4/$36M last season because they could have increased the signing bonus portion of the guaranteed money and then amortized it over 5 years instead of 4 and ended up with a lot cap friendlier deal. We had the space to absorb a million+ a year off the top of that deal leaving us with Welker with 4 years remaining on essentially a 4 year <$8M AAV deal less potential dead cap.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Patriots News 04-19, Countdown To Draft Day
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 6 – A Week Before the Draft
TRANSCRIPT: Eliot Wolf Pre-Draft Press Conference 4/13
Patriots News 04-12, What To Watch For In The NFL Draft
MORSE: Pre-Draft Patriots News and Notes
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
MORSE: Patriots Mock Draft 5
Mark Morse
2 weeks ago
Patriots Part Ways with Another Linebacker as Offseason Roster Shake-Up Continues
Patriots News 04-05, Mock Draft 2.0, Patriots Look For OL Depth
MORSE: 18 Game Schedule and Other Patriots Notes
TRANSCRIPT: Mike Vrabel Press Conference at the League Meetings 3/31
Back
Top