Celtics trade Isaiah Thomas, Brooklyn 2018 pick & players for Kyrie Irving

[Kdo5]

and while I like Crowder as a role player, I dont like him blocking a spot from Tatum/Brown

That and I think Crowder was underwhelming in the playoffs. Might have had a game or two where he was drilling 3s but beyond that he was a non factor. His defense is good, not great. A nice player but Hayward and the development of Brown & Tatum make him expendable.

 

[Kdo5]

I like the deal and the whole off season so far.
The celtics weren't going anywhere as they were constructed so they blew it up. They brought in 2 great players and added a high pick to last years high pick.
They have a chance to grow the team into a nucleus of Irving, Tatum, heyward and brown that could be together a long time. Hopefully horford fits better with this group.

Im not convinced the Brooklyn pick was as valuable as others believe.

No one is thinking about the risk of keeping BKN '18 either. I, maybe like you, think that the pick is at best #3 or #4 with the potential to be even less valuable.

What happens mid way through the season if and when Brooklyn is not a bottom 3 team? In the weeks preceding this trade I was worrying that BKN '18 was losing value because the team had improved its roster, at least marginally while other teams are getting much worse and setting themselves up to tank.

We would,

1. Not be truly contending for an NBA finals appearance.

2. Isaiah could be gone next season if we are hesitant to give him the max.

3. We land a good, not great draft pick.

That all seems very realistic to me. Instead we used that pick to land a 25 year old stud with potential to improve his already killer game. I'm OK with people saying maybe we gave up a little too much. Fine, I agree to disagree. But the 'fire Ainge' and doomsday comments are a joke.

Talk to me if the Celtics can't at least make the ECF very competitive this season and BKN '18 is a #1 or #2 overall pick. I'd bet against it but we can revisit this discussion about winning and losing the trade at that point.

 

[patsfan13]

It will be fascinating to see if the Lakers are worse than the Nets.

You have to go big in the NBA. Ainge may lose but he has gone big. He isn't playing not to lose, he is playing to win.

Yes, but not by much. Irving's a marginally better scorer (both are very, very good), a little less prone to turnovers but still not much of a distributor, and a better defender (but this isn't saying much, he's still a liability).

But he's younger (and that's not to be underestimated since IT's game relies on athleticism) and there's an argument to be made that he needed to be out from under LeBron's shadow to continue his development, as LeBron effectively worked as the point guard for the Cavs and Irving's position was more of a combo-guard.

On the other hand, there's also an argument to be made that he's not an effective primary ballhandler or floor general and running the offense through LeBron allowed him to focus on scoring and covered for some of his deficiencies defending the perimeter, and he won't have either luxury on the Celtics.

LeBron dominates the ball, we don't know whether or not Irving can be a good point guard. HE can be "The Man" for the Celtics if he runs the Stevens O successfully. His skill set is an ideal fir for what Stevens wants to do. HE also doesn't HAVE to be hidden on D the way Thomas does. You also have to ask whether Thomas's hip injury will impact his game.


We still have the LA Sac pick in the next 2 years. The LA pick this year could be as good as the Brooklyn pick.

 

[patfanken]

I played ball at B.U. in the early 70's. I was a gym rat into my 30's. No matter what I was into back then, I knew I was playing ball somewhere that day. It was like my religion.

I'm not sophisticated enough in the ways and means of the current NBA landscape to judge this trade before there's been even one tipoff but I will say this with confidence...who do YOU want backing the other guy down for a last shot? Kyrie Irving is M-O-N-E-Y and he's 25. The Brooklyn pick is just that...a pick. Is Shaq coming out in this draft? Kobe? Jordan? LeBron? I've looked at the prospects...looks like a regular top of the draft player pool....could boom could bust. Jae Crowder is a JAG. Zizic is your typical euro big man. Has some length..meh. The unknown quantity is Thomas and his hip. The known quantity is it's Kyrie Irving right in the middle of his prime....and marketing in Boston is going to LOVE him.

Do I fear LeBron/Thomas more than LeBron/Irving?...uh...if I do I'm insane. Sometimes a GM has to make a deal to strengthen a lineup and a perrenial all-star, offensive maestro in his prime can't be a bad thing.

BTW- Irving's dad played at BU under Pitino - Did you know him or of him?

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that Irving grew up in NJ, so he's always been an eastcoast kid, and beyond that, this was in his Wiki article

"[6] As a result of his father's connection to Boston University, Irving spent a lot of time in Boston, including at BU's basketball skills camp. In fifth grade, he was offered a scholarship to Boston University by then-head coach Dennis Wolff.[8] As a teenager, Irving played for the Road Runners of the Amateur Athletic Union (AAU).[9][10]"

 

[RobertWeathers]

He is rolling the dice to win now, next year and several years beyond that. You keep talking like it's a two season window to win when Kyrie is likely to stick long term. Obviously he feels like they have a good chance to extend Kyrie. I see no reason for Kyrie to bolt from Boston when he is the center piece on a contending team with a great coach.

Our chances of resigning Kyrie are much much greater than both getting a top 3 pick (again) and having that player wind up being a superstar.

Please tell me, do you think we could have been positioned to win a title during the IT window? I don't believe so. Jaylen/Tatum/BKN '18 will not be reaching their true potential before IT begins to slip.

So the players being traded are a wash to me. The issue is BKN '18. I didn't want to trade it but it's definitely not some fireable offense when you are receiving a young, proven superstar in return who has room to develop his game more under a real coach.

It cannot be said enough that BKN '18 is more likely to yield #3/4/5 than #1/2.

We are contending for a finals appearance and our position will only get better in the years moving forward IMO.

As far as chemistry? Yes the 2016 Celts had great chemistry and where did that get us? Dominated in the ECF. A very respectable season but far from enough.

Why can't this new team (which is very different from 2016) develop its own decent chemistry?

Let me be clear. I support this trade.

Love AI but KI is a better player.

I'm concerned they lost some solid defense but they picked up more talented players in exchange.

They still need a 10 rebound guy. I'd kill for Perk right now.

I am not a draft pick lover. A pick is currency to buy something. The BKY pick bought KI.

Believe me, I am totally fine with Danny rolling the dice to win now. Hes one of the top GMs in the business but I do think it's a two season window. We have no idea if he'll stick around and Horford will be farther in his 30s.

If they win a title, Danny is immortal. If they can't get past CLE and KI implodes then walks after two years Danny blew it.

I might have overreacted saying he should be fired. But if it blows up he absolutely does not deserve the job security he is enjoying today.

 

[ohiopatsfan]

I was surprised when I first heard about the trade out here in Ohio. Not because the Cavs traded Irving, which was all but guaranteed after his demands, but because he was traded to their main competitor in the NBA East. I watched Irving since he was first drafted. Before James got to town, he was a selfish, talented player with a me-first attitude and was considered something of a locker room cancer. In fact, after his first year or two in Cleveland, there were calls for him to be traded. When James arrived, he first balked at, but then accepted, his status as the #2 guy on the team. Irving does not have the passing skills or elusiveness of Thomas. He does, however, eliminate the matchup problem the Celtics always had when IT was on defense. My one hope is that KI will not revert to the type of player he was when he first entered the NBA. If he does that, he can easily ruin the team play that Matt Stevens has always preached. If he does fit into Stevens' team philosophy, then this trade is a big win for the Celtics.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Right, so five things all have to go the wrong way for things to not be looking good for Danny, which means his job is not under much threat at all.

One by one:

1): I don't think the expectation is that BOS will get past CLE till LeBron leaves, with or without Kyrie. LeBron is that good. If we happen to get past CLE with LBJ, more the better. However CLE is telegraphing a rebuild by trading two years+ of Kyrie for one of IT4 at a low salary along with a high draft pick, so CLE seems to be on the way down just as we seem to be on the way up. A big turnaround could happen for CLE if they trade the BKN pick for a superstar and hope that it makes LBJ want to stay, but it doesn't seem many teams would be interested in sending a superstar to CLE, and it seems LBJ is already packing his bags for LA.

2): It's definitely a much better scenario for Danny if KI stays long term, but in the end, that's up to KI and Danny can say "I took a shot and KI just didn't want to stay".

3): This is more of a risk to Danny and Brad in my book because bad chemistry can make the whole team suck quickly and heavily, a true 'poison the well' risk being taken here.

4): The owner is signing off on the deals so he'll deal with the tax. I have a hard time seeing Wyc sending Danny packing, except under extreme duress.

5): Winning the EC is within reach when LeBron leaves CLE, and I'm all in on him going to LAL in the off season. If not, then Danny has yet another get out of jail free card to play -- "LBJ stayed, who knew?"...



My epic meltdown involves all of the above going badly, plus the recent high draft picks and the upcoming ones missing badly. A streak of bad drafting when you hold so many high draft picks will put any GM's job at high risk regardless of the relationship with ownership and the track record.

Interesting....I think the expectation is BOS get past CLE right now.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don't believe the Celtics had any plans in giving IT a max contract so you may want to start with that......I wouldn't .... he's a fun guy to watch but his limitations are too big

I totally agree with that. Danny was not paying a 30 year old max money.

With that said if Danny thought he was a max player and had more upside I dont think he would have made the trade

Maybe if he was 25 and pumping in 27ppg but not now.

 

[condon84]

We got the best player in the deal.

NBA is all about who has the best player on the court. Love IT but the return favors us. Unless that Brooklyn pick turns out to be #1 and that player is a generational player.

 

[IllegalContact]

I must admit I have never really seen him raise any concerns during the season. My statement was based on articles I read on why he wanted out of Cleveland. He's carried that team many times and I can understand why he wanted out.
Hopefully things change for better here.

Playing with LeBron has to get old

 

[zydecochris]

I totally agree with that. Danny was not paying a 30 year old max money.

With that said if Danny thought he was a max player and had more upside I dont think he would have made the trade

Maybe if he was 25 and pumping in 27ppg but not now.

He will be a few months short of 30 when he gets his next contract, but I agree completely with your broad point. With a guard so reliant on quickness, there was no way that Ainge was going to give Thomas the max when he was nearly 30.

Posters in this thread are certainly a tough audience on Ainge, he has made two of the most lopsided NBA trades in history with the Pierce / Garnett Nets trade and the trade for IT. I think posters are used to these type of lopsided home run trades in favor of the Celtics. One reason Ainge has been able to make these type of (in retrospect) lopsided trades is that he has the job security (and the fortitude) to take advantage of other desperate GM's, such as Billy King with the Nets who was under such pressure from Prokhorov to "win now".

IMHO, this time the situation was different in that I think it was Ainge himself that was under some pressure. As you say, there is no way that Ainge wanted to give a max contract to a near 30 year old player so reliant on his quickness, the contract would have almost certainly eventually been an albatross around the Celtics neck. However, Ainge had a big problem: IT may have been one of the most popular players in recent Celtic history, and if Ainge didn't offer him a max contract the fans (and perhaps the owner?) would have revolted. Thus, I think that Ainge was under tremendous pressure to make this IT/Irving trade, which neatly solved his IT max-contract problem and brought back a much younger player who was clearly worth a max contract. To make it happen, he was forced to give up more than usual.

 

[Froob]

Interesting....I think the expectation is BOS get past CLE right now.

LeBron not going to let that happen. LeBron also gonna bail to Hollywood and be outta our way in a year.

 

[IllegalContact]

LeBron not going to let that happen. LeBron also gonna bail to Hollywood and be outta our way in a year.

he's going to have catch IT and take the ball away first

 

[SalemPats]

We got the best player in the deal.

NBA is all about who has the best player on the court. Love IT but the return favors us. Unless that Brooklyn pick turns out to be #1 and that player is a generational player.

I agree this is a huge win for the Celtics

 

[Froob]

he's going to have catch IT and take the ball away first

Not sure why you think IT can't share the ball, who did you want him to give it to last season?

 

[Bill Lee]

Yes, but not by much. Irving's a marginally better scorer (both are very, very good), a little less prone to turnovers but still not much of a distributor, and a better defender (but this isn't saying much, he's still a liability).

But he's younger (and that's not to be underestimated since IT's game relies on athleticism) and there's an argument to be made that he needed to be out from under LeBron's shadow to continue his development, as LeBron effectively worked as the point guard for the Cavs and Irving's position was more of a combo-guard.

On the other hand, there's also an argument to be made that he's not an effective primary ballhandler or floor general and running the offense through LeBron allowed him to focus on scoring and covered for some of his deficiencies defending the perimeter, and he won't have either luxury on the Celtics.

Fair enough, but I'll add that I think you're comparing IT's best season ever (that many would call it a breakout season) to an average season for Kyrie. Of course Kyrie has the advantage of playing with the best basketball player on the planet, but still, Kyrie's done it longer and at a higher level and as you say, he's younger.

We got the best player in the deal.

NBA is all about who has the best player on the court. Love IT but the return favors us. Unless that Brooklyn pick turns out to be #1 and that player is a generational player.

At this point, the BKN pick is money we've already spent. You gotta evaluate the trade on what you know about the pick when it was traded instead of what it will turn into. Lord knows if we'd pick the same player CLE is gonna pick, or even if CLE is gonna keep the pick, etc.

 

[Kdo5]

Let me be clear. I support this trade.

Love AI but KI is a better player.

I'm concerned they lost some solid defense but they picked up more talented players in exchange.

They still need a 10 rebound guy. I'd kill for Perk right now.

I am not a draft pick lover. A pick is currency to buy something. The BKY pick bought KI.

Believe me, I am totally fine with Danny rolling the dice to win now. Hes one of the top GMs in the business but I do think it's a two season window. We have no idea if he'll stick around and Horford will be farther in his 30s.

If they win a title, Danny is immortal. If they can't get past CLE and KI implodes then walks after two years Danny blew it.

I might have overreacted saying he should be fired. But if it blows up he absolutely does not deserve the job security he is enjoying today.

Fair enough on most of this, though I still agree to disagree. Kyrie resigning seems more likely than not given the reasons I stated; great coach, focal point, strong team built around him. I'd hedge my bets that he will love that. But yes we can't know for sure. Reports suggest that Ainge and the Celts are confident that Kyrie will be here for years to come.

I would say that he defense will still be pretty good. Crowder was a good defender but not great. Hayward is a solid defender as I think Jaylen Brown will also continue to be. Of course we know Smart's ability in that area and Morris will also be helpful on the defensive end. Kyrie does have the capacity to be an average defender and hopefully with Brad Stevens coaching him he will take that next step.

The rebounding issue remains the biggest concern, I agree.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I can certainly see them overtaking Cleveland, but what happens when they run into the buzz saw that is Golden State? Is he still in trouble, or does he get a pass because guys in GS are taking reduced contracts to field a super team?

I think the only way BOS wins the title in the next 2-4 years is someone on GS is hurt or suspended like two years ago.

 

[RobertWeathers]

He will be a few months short of 30 when he gets his next contract, but I agree completely with your broad point. With a guard so reliant on quickness, there was no way that Ainge was going to give Thomas the max when he was nearly 30.

Posters in this thread are certainly a tough audience on Ainge, he has made two of the most lopsided NBA trades in history with the Pierce / Garnett Nets trade and the trade for IT. I think posters are used to these type of lopsided home run trades in favor of the Celtics. One reason Ainge has been able to make these type of (in retrospect) lopsided trades is that he has the job security (and the fortitude) to take advantage of other desperate GM's, such as Billy King with the Nets who was under such pressure from Prokhorov to "win now".

IMHO, this time the situation was different in that I think it was Ainge himself that was under some pressure. As you say, there is no way that Ainge wanted to give a max contract to a near 30 year old player so reliant on his quickness, the contract would have almost certainly eventually been an albatross around the Celtics neck. However, Ainge had a big problem: IT may have been one of the most popular players in recent Celtic history, and if Ainge didn't offer him a max contract the fans (and perhaps the owner?) would have revolted. Thus, I think that Ainge was under tremendous pressure to make this IT/Irving trade, which neatly solved his IT max-contract problem and brought back a much younger player who was clearly worth a max contract. To make it happen, he was forced to give up more than usual.

I think Danny was under tremendous pressure in 2007 to push for a title as well. Truth was getting pissed at being on crappy teams and Grousbek and team wanted a winner.

The difference between BKY and BOS is Grous and Danny is an elite mgt team and King and Crazy Ivan are marginal.

 

[RobertWeathers]

LeBron not going to let that happen. LeBron also gonna bail to Hollywood and be outta our way in a year.

Meh. He sucks.