Can you picture Jesus using genocide as Noah’s God did?

[oldrover]

Everlong, God made it so you, so 100% of us, Jew or non Jew, COULD spend both this life and the Hereafter with Him. The choice to deny His existence is ours. We make our own hell.

And thank you for your apology! I really appreciate it, and these kinds of forums aren't the easiest places for a mea culpa. Good on ye.

 

[The Brandon Five]

only to the extent that everything is a value judgment

but I'd contend that if you can't distinguish between a person's religious beliefs and their values, that's the start of a problem -- both on an individual level and on a group level

Huh? So values are separate from beliefs? Is that idea a fact or an opinion? And what is it based on?

 

[chicowalker]

Huh? So values are separate from beliefs? Is that idea a fact or an opinion? And what is it based on?

Values and religious beliefs are different things. They can be related, certainly, but they don't have to be.

A Jew or an atheist can be a good person. A Christian can be a horrible person.

A child can be forced to read the bible and attend church every day and then learn from her parents' actions that it's "OK" to hit one another, cheat, lie and steal.

otoh, a child can be exposed to multiple religions, or no religion at all, while also being shown how to treat others well.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Values and religious beliefs are different things. They can be related, certainly, but they don't have to be.

A Jew or an atheist can be a good person. A Christian can be a horrible person.

I think you are confusing behavior with values.

Judaism and Atheism are both belief systems so I am not sure what distinction you are making.

A child can be forced to read the bible and attend church every day and then learn from her parents' actions that it's "OK" to hit one another, cheat, lie and steal.

So your basic position is that because some people are hypocrites there is no connection between what people believe and what they do? I disagree. What they do reflects what they actually believe.

otoh, a child can be exposed to multiple religions, or no religion at all, while also being shown how to treat others well.

By exposing them to multiple religions you are teaching them that they are essentially interchangeable. That is a value judgment you are passing on to them. I think many people who pass on their faith do so because they sincerely believe it to be the truth. Others do it because of family or cultural tradition, I suppose.

What defines what it means to "treat others well"?

 

[chicowalker]

I think you are confusing behavior with values. Judaism and Atheism are both belief systems so I am not sure what distinction you are making....

Go back to what I initially said and you questioned: "Values, yes. Independent of thoughts on religion or god. Those aren't the same."

This was regarding teaching children about religion and values.

In other words, I would do my best to instill them with good values but, when it comes to god and to religion, I would expose them to various beliefs but not care where they came out.

because being a good person, to me, has nothing to do with one's religious beliefs and whether one believes in god.

...So your basic position is that because some people are hypocrites there is no connection between what people believe and what they do? I disagree. What they do reflects what they actually believe....

No, my position is that a person's outwards expressions of religious beliefs, or lack thereof, doesn't dictate whether they're a good or bad person.

...By exposing them to multiple religions you are teaching them that they are essentially interchangeable. That is a value judgment you are passing on to them. I think many people who pass on their faith do so because they sincerely believe it to be the truth. Others do it because of family or cultural tradition, I suppose....

Yes, it is a judgment I am passing on to them, for them to adopt or not.

But I wouldn't care whether they wound up agreeing with me, and I wouldn't try to force it upon them.

...What defines what it means to "treat others well"?

You're the second person who seems to have a hard time with this concept. Do you guys really view treating others well as something complicated? It's always seemed fairly obvious to me.

I'm really a little baffled here.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Go back to what I initially said and you questioned: "Values, yes. Independent of thoughts on religion or god. Those aren't the same."

Yes you said it, but I don't think you have demonstrated that to be the case.

This was regarding teaching children about religion and values.

In other words, I would do my best to instill them with good values but, when it comes to god and to religion, I would expose them to various beliefs but not care where they came out.

Various beliefs that you agree with, I assume? Not sure what this means...so Wahabbism is in the mix?

because being a good person, to me, has nothing to do with one's religious beliefs and whether one believes in god.

Good to know. What does it mean to be a good person in your book?

No, my position is that a person's outwards expressions of religious beliefs, or lack thereof, doesn't dictate whether they're a good or bad person.

Who said that it did? I am asking the question about whether the kind of person they are is a result of or is influenced by their worldview, by their religious beliefs. You seem to think that religion simply informs style of worship and church attendance.

Yes, it is a judgment I am passing on to them, for them to adopt or not.

But I wouldn't care whether they wound up agreeing with me, and I wouldn't try to force it upon them.

You're the second person who seems to have a hard time with this concept. Do you guys really view treating others well as something complicated? It's always seemed fairly obvious to me.

I'm really a little baffled here.

No, I think there are different opinions on what this looks like. Some emphasize the things that you should not do to others while another might emphasize what you should do for others.

 

[chicowalker]

Yes you said it, but I don't think you have demonstrated that to be the case....

What does your value system say about murder, or rape? I'm guessing it's the same as my value system with regard to both. Yet our religious beliefs are rather different.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure there are many people who would claim to have the same religious beliefs as you (Christian, right?) or me (atheist / agnostic) yet have murdered or raped.

Values and religious beliefs can be related, but they aren't one and the same.

...Various beliefs that you agree with, I assume? Not sure what this means...so Wahabbism is in the mix?....

No, not beliefs that I agree with -- that's what I'm saying. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, agnosticism / atheism, etc. There's only one of those that I believe in.

I would want them to understand there are many religions with many adherents, as well as people who don't believe in any religion and people who don't believe in god.

...Good to know. What does it mean to be a good person in your book?....

No, I think there are different opinions on what this looks like. Some emphasize the things that you should not do to others while another might emphasize what you should do for others.

This at least helps me understand what you're after, a little, anyway.

I view being a good person as both. Clearly there are things you can't do to others if you're a good person. But, yes, ideally we should go well beyond that, with family and friends as well as strangers.

I'm not going to get into a lot of detail here because I think it's a broad question with no quick answer that's going to be satisfactory. (and, frankly, anything I say would be pretty obvious)

...Who said that it did? I am asking the question about whether the kind of person they are is a result of or is influenced by their worldview, by their religious beliefs. You seem to think that religion simply informs style of worship and church attendance.
...

I wasn't saying anybody said it. it was the point I was making, and it goes back to my original view of values and religious beliefs.

But your clarification here is helpful. Of course a person can be influenced by their religious beliefs. They should be influenced by it. And I do not think that religion simply informs style of worship of church attendance -- BUT in many cases that is about the extent of it -- not always, but often.

Religious beliefs can influence world view and both can influence how a person acts -- for better or worse. But there isn't always a connection between the two, and when there is a connection it's not always for the better. (and it goes the other way, too, of course -- atheists can be good people despite not believing in god; but not believing in god doesn't make an atheist a good person)

 

[The Brandon Five]

What does your value system say about murder, or rape?

I'm agin' it.

I'm guessing it's the same as my value system with regard to both. Yet our religious beliefs are rather different.

Within my church there are things that we say are central, i.e. we all agree on them, then there are things on which we differ and it is understood that difference of opinion of those matters is okay. I assume it would be the same in a roomful of believers/non-believers except I think there would be a few items that both considered central that they could not agree on (abortion, same sex marriage, etc).

Meanwhile, I'm pretty sure there are many people who would claim to have the same religious beliefs as you (Christian, right?) or me (atheist / agnostic) yet have murdered or raped.

Right, but the question then becomes: what do they really believe?

Values and religious beliefs can be related, but they aren't one and the same.

I think we are splitting hairs. I guess I don't have a good understanding of what values are in your mind.

No, not beliefs that I agree with -- that's what I'm saying. Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, agnosticism / atheism, etc. There's only one of those that I believe in.

I would want them to understand there are many religions with many adherents, as well as people who don't believe in any religion and people who don't believe in god.

I would never let my kid explore a faith that I thought was simply wrong. You are there to guide them. You have to take a position at a certain point. If they became Wahabbist, you would react by simply saying "cool, whatever floats your boat?"

This at least helps me understand what you're after, a little, anyway.

I view being a good person as both. Clearly there are things you can't do to others if you're a good person. But, yes, ideally we should go well beyond that, with family and friends as well as strangers.

I'm not going to get into a lot of detail here because I think it's a broad question with no quick answer that's going to be satisfactory. (and, frankly, anything I say would be pretty obvious)

Most of the fights on the Political Forum have to with the latter.

I wasn't saying anybody said it. it was the point I was making, and it goes back to my original view of values and religious beliefs.

But your clarification here is helpful. Of course a person can be influenced by their religious beliefs. They should be influenced by it. And I do not think that religion simply informs style of worship of church attendance -- BUT in many cases that is about the extent of it -- not always, but often.

Unfortunately, for large swaths of our church-going population that is absolutely correct.

Religious beliefs can influence world view and both can influence how a person acts -- for better or worse. But there isn't always a connection between the two, and when there is a connection it's not always for the better. (and it goes the other way, too, of course -- atheists can be good people despite not believing in god; but not believing in god doesn't make an atheist a good person)

Agreed. But even if the connection is broken in places, I think it is impossible to imagine that each of us is not influenced in taking positions on moral/ethical issues based on what we believe about the meaning of life, where we came from and where we are going.

I will be interested to see what choices you make once they are actually here! I hope that you are blessed with many children. I was only fortunate enough to be a step-father which is the great privilege of my life.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Only really big fools think that people would send themselves to hell.

Note how you have had to start thinking stupidly to follow your God.

That is why I get angry.

Your religion makes a disgrace out of what could be good people.

Regards
DL

Nope, nothing personal there.

This is fun!

 

[chicowalker]

I'm agin' it.



Within my church there are things that we say are central, i.e. we all agree on them, then there are things on which we differ and it is understood that difference of opinion of those matters is okay. I assume it would be the same in a roomful of believers/non-believers except I think there would be a few items that both considered central that they could not agree on (abortion, same sex marriage, etc).




Right, but the question then becomes: what do they really believe?



I think we are splitting hairs. I guess I don't have a good understanding of what values are in your mind.



I would never let my kid explore a faith that I thought was simply wrong. You are there to guide them. You have to take a position at a certain point. If they became Wahabbist, you would react by simply saying "cool, whatever floats your boat?"




Most of the fights on the Political Forum have to with the latter.




Unfortunately, for large swaths of our church-going population that is absolutely correct.



Agreed. But even if the connection is broken in places, I think it is impossible to imagine that each of us is not influenced in taking positions on moral/ethical issues based on what we believe about the meaning of life, where we came from and where we are going.

I will be interested to see what choices you make once they are actually here! I hope that you are blessed with many children. I was only fortunate enough to be a step-father which is the great privilege of my life.

I certainly think our morals / ethics are based on all of that, yes: the meaning of life, where we came from and where we are going. All I've been trying to say is that those don't have to be guided by religion, and even if they are, that isn't always a good thing. Take yor example of wahabbism, for ex.

(To your question on wahabbism, btw, I now see what you were asking. Of course I wouldn't want them to go down a path that I view as truly harmful. My main point, though, wasn't that they'd be exposed to every possible belief -- where would you draw the line anyway? I was referring to the major religions and points of view, especially to start. The more extreme the religion / sect / whatever, the more concerned I'd be. And look, I wouldn't be bringing them to a church of scientology, either -- not because I view it as more crazy than anything else, but because I view it that way and it's not a very important religion (outside of Hollywood, anyway ) But at the same time, it's not something I'd hide from them -- at least not once they'd reached a certain age / maturity level.)

 

[IcyPatriot]

[QUOTErefers to now-deleted post[/QUOTE]

You need to choose your words more carefully there Mr. Great.

 

[gomezcat]

Locked until I have had a chance to read through. This will probably be by 1700 E T.