Can you picture Jesus using genocide as Noah’s God did?

[chicowalker]

Actually, it's simple and a blessing to follow God... to love Him... to appreciate the beautiful world He gave us... to follow His commandments... and to accept His son as Lord. Well, it's easy when one hasn't already appointed one's self the Most High. That's why it doesn't pass your smell test... you think your nose is the Ultimate Arbiter... which is ironic, since He designed your nose and gave it to you. LOL

But why take man's word that it isn't man's word -- that's what I'm getting at.

It's easy to appreciate the world without any religion and without any notion of god, though, just so you know.

For some reason you always fall back on this notion that the only reason a person doesn't accept other people's concept of god as pride, ego, etc. ("... already appointed one's self the Most High... the Ultimate Arbiter...")

In reality, it's just not accepting what other men have written or said about some supernatural being as fact.

Do you believe in, say, Big Foot? Is the reason you don't believe that you have appointed yourself the "Most High"? of course not.


btw, I don't at all doubt that it's simple to follow god -- any god. it's probably quite comforting, too. Questions that an atheist such as myself considers to be complex and intriguing suddenly have simple answers.


edit: Big Foot as a comparison could seem flippant, even offensive. if so, substitute the Egyptian gods, or Roman and Greek gods from mythology. I'm assuming that you, like I, don't believe in any of them as supernatural entities. And the reason we don't believe them isn't that we are too proud, or that we worship ourselves. I can't speak for you, but for me there's no reason to accept what those other men --their followers -- have written or believed as fact.

 

[everlong]

I don't know where you get that number. But as for trying to redeem as many as possible, He asked us to love Him and follow His precepts. Before doing so, He gave us this earth and everything on it... and when we still didn't get it, He sent His son to die for our sins. And you're saying that what God did is not enough for you? What more do you WANT?!?!? LOL

I get that number from Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Africa.....pretty much all the non Christian religions.

I don't believe in Christ. My beliefs are somewhere between a Buddhist, Taoist and a Celtic Pagan (who believed in nature which is where all the Christian holidays are stolen from.) I'm perfect fine with you having your spiritual beliefs and I won't tell you you're wrong or try to convert you to mine or tell you you're damned for not believing as I do. I merely ask the same.

 

[everlong]

So, you make fun of people whose beliefs you don't share, by claiming their parents took them hostage as children and beat them into submission until the children gave in and agreed to 'believe'?

That IS hilarious. How witty you both are. Kudos! LOL

I wasn't making fun of you. I just thought his post was funny because of how he worded it to his advantage. Using Stockholm Syndrome as his analogy was brilliant.

 

[oldrover]

I wasn't making fun of you. I just thought his post was funny because of how he worded it to his advantage. Using Stockholm Syndrome as his analogy was brilliant.

So to clarify... you weren't making fun of me. You were laughing along with his brilliant analogy of how my parents supposedly beat me as a child and held me hostage until I became a 'believer'.

Thanks for the clarification. LOL

 

[oldrover]

I get that number from Hindus, Buddhists, Muslims, Africa.....pretty much all the non Christian religions.

I don't believe in Christ. My beliefs are somewhere between a Buddhist, Taoist and a Celtic Pagan (who believed in nature which is where all the Christian holidays are stolen from.) I'm perfect fine with you having your spiritual beliefs and I won't tell you you're wrong or try to convert you to mine or tell you you're damned for not believing as I do. I merely ask the same.

Yes, the early Christian church did a great job of co-opting the pagan holidays to make it easier to convert the pagans.

Rest assured, tho, I am not trying to convert you. And as for judging the disposition of anyone's soul, JC was pretty clear about NOT going THERE.

 

[chicowalker]

Stockholm Syndrome goes too far.

But I do have a problem with parents -- of any religion -- who simply tell their kids that whatever religion they happen to believe is how things are.

Although I'm an atheist, if I have kids, I'll want to expose them to various religions and beliefs, as well as agnosticism / atheism.

(Don't get me wrong -- it's not a huge issue I have. I recognize that it's how most people are, and obviously there are far worse things a parent can do.)

 

[everlong]

So to clarify... you weren't making fun of me. You were laughing along with his brilliant analogy of how my parents supposedly beat me as a child and held me hostage until I became a 'believer'.

Thanks for the clarification. LOL

The anology of Stockholm Syndrome was funny, sorry.

 

[everlong]

Yes, the early Christian church did a great job of co-opting the pagan holidays to make it easier to convert the pagans.

Rest assured, tho, I am not trying to convert you. And as for judging the disposition of anyone's soul, JC was pretty clear about NOT going THERE.

That and burning their temples and persecuting them.

If you don't believe your soul cannot be saved. Am I missing something? So basically most of the world isn't' going to be saved. That doesn't seem right to me.

 

[oldrover]

Stockholm Syndrome goes too far.

But I do have a problem with parents -- of any religion -- who simply tell their kids that whatever religion they happen to believe is how things are.

Although I'm an atheist, if I have kids, I'll want to expose them to various religions and beliefs, as well as agnosticism / atheism.

(Don't get me wrong -- it's not a huge issue I have. I recognize that it's how most people are, and obviously there are far worse things a parent can do.)

Just curious when you said you don't have kids... how old are you? I'm 53... I was a Buddhist in my 20's. But the more I read... the more I realized that too many brilliant people before me saw the existence of God for me to rule it out. I read more, understood more, and finally believed. And if one does honestly believe there is a God, and that His way brings truth and light, don't you want to share that belief with your children? We did. Just sayin'.

P.S. The ironic thing here is that despite the yuks being had by Tweedly Dumb and Tweedly Dumber, my parents were VERY laissez faire on religion. LOL

 

[The Brandon Five]

Stockholm Syndrome goes too far.

But I do have a problem with parents -- of any religion -- who simply tell their kids that whatever religion they happen to believe is how things are.

Although I'm an atheist, if I have kids, I'll want to expose them to various religions and beliefs, as well as agnosticism / atheism.

(Don't get me wrong -- it's not a huge issue I have. I recognize that it's how most people are, and obviously there are far worse things a parent can do.)

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"...

So you are saying that you will not try to pass your values on to your children?

 

[Nikolai]

I don't know where you get that number.

It's fairly simple. If you take the estimates about the numbers of Christian adherents, you get roughly a quarter of the world.

But as for trying to redeem as many as possible, He asked us to love Him and follow His precepts.

How did he ask us?

Before doing so, He gave us this earth and everything on it... and when we still didn't get it

Get what? How did we not get it?

He sent His son to die for our sins.

Is it your contention that Jesus and god are two different entities? And you are saying that god required a human or demigod sacrifice to cover for our sins? But, according to you, it didn't work. Or rather, it was an incomplete work. If not one person chose to believe in Christianity, then his death would mean nothing.

And you're saying that what God did is not enough for you? What more do you WANT?!?!? LOL

But you have dodged my question from earlier. Who invented hell or the dynamic by which those who do not have appropriate beliefs get sent to hell?

 

[chicowalker]

Just curious when you said you don't have kids... how old are you? I'm 53... I was a Buddhist in my 20's. But the more I read... the more I realized that too many brilliant people before me saw the existence of God for me to rule it out. I read more, understood more, and finally believed. And if one does honestly believe there is a God, and that His way brings truth and light, don't you want to share that belief with your children? We did. Just sayin'.

P.S. The ironic thing here is that despite the yuks being had by Tweedly Dumb and Tweedly Dumber, my parents were VERY laissez faire on religion. LOL

43

Just to be clear, I don't rule out the existence of god.

And I'm not saying there's anything wrong with sharing one's beliefs, but from what I've witnessed, both firsthand and secondhand, that's usually not how it's done with children. Like I said, I would share my own belief that there is no god, or at least not in the judeo-christian sense of the term -- but I would also share various beliefs that there is a god. But what I experienced and what I've mostly seen is children more or less being indoctrinated into whatever religion their parents happen to believe in.

fwiw, people with your sort of background -- in my experience -- tend to have more perspective re their faith, probably because they came to it on their own rather than being force-fed it as a child.

 

[chicowalker]

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice"...

So you are saying that you will not try to pass your values on to your children?

Values, yes. Independent of thoughts on religion or god. Those aren't the same.

 

[oldrover]

It's fairly simple. If you take the estimates about the numbers of Christian adherents, you get roughly a quarter of the world.

How did he ask us?

Get what? How did we not get it?

Is it your contention that Jesus and god are two different entities? And you are saying that god required a human or demigod sacrifice to cover for our sins? But, according to you, it didn't work. Or rather, it was an incomplete work. If not one person chose to believe in Christianity, then his death would mean nothing.

But you have dodged my question from earlier. Who invented hell or the dynamic by which those who do not have appropriate beliefs get sent to hell?

One by one...

1. Jesus said, "For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you." Ever seen a mustard seed? Now, that is a SMALL bit of faith. But with that, all things are possible. Maybe you disbelieve Jesus 99%. But 1% of you thinks, 'maybe'. Is that faith the size of a mustard seed? Could be. And how many non-Christian-but-willing-to-CONSIDER-it folks would that add to the total?

2. He asked us repeatedly from the get go. He told Adam and Eve they could have EVERYTHING... except this one thing. They disobeyed him. Cain and Abel... one followed God's precepts... the other, not so much. He gave Moses the Ten Commandments. He spoke to us through the prophets.

3. How did we not get it? Read through Kings 1-2 and Chronicles 1-2 sometime. We kept throwing Him over for false gods, idols we darn near built from kits, fer cryin' out loud! Both the people did this, and even the kings God selected.

4. God and Christ are one, along with the Holy Spirit. But Christ was BOTH God AND human for a time. God required nothing. WE required and STILL require a blanket atonement for our sins. Because we needed it, God gave it to us in the ultimate way... the body of His only son.

5. Hell is the absence of God, not a physical place. By our lives, we determine OURSELVES whether we shall be with Him forever... or without Him forever. He does not condemn anyone. We do it to ourselves.

 

[Nikolai]

One by one...

1. Jesus said, "For, amen I say to you, if you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, you shall say to this mountain, Remove from hence hither, and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible to you." Ever seen a mustard seed? Now, that is a SMALL bit of faith. But with that, all things are possible. Maybe you disbelieve Jesus 99%. But 1% of you thinks, 'maybe'. Is that faith the size of a mustard seed? Could be. And how many non-Christian-but-willing-to-CONSIDER-it folks would that add to the total?

Are you contending that even if you have an inkling of a thought that Jesus is the real deal that you are counted among the redeemed?

2. He asked us repeatedly from the get go. He told Adam and Eve they could have EVERYTHING... except this one thing. They disobeyed him. Cain and Abel... one followed God's precepts... the other, not so much. He gave Moses the Ten Commandments. He spoke to us through the prophets.

"Us" is referring to who? The whole human race? Outside of the Jewish nation, there was little to no concept of Moses' teachings until the first or second century CE at the very earliest. The earliest known recording of the Adam and Eve story comes from within the last millenium BCE. Or are you referring to a more vague notion of "god" that most of humanity has had in recorded history (and likely earlier)?

3. How did we not get it? Read through Kings 1-2 and Chronicles 1-2 sometime. We kept throwing Him over for false gods, idols we darn near built from kits, fer cryin' out loud! Both the people did this, and even the kings God selected.

I'm actually pretty familiar with the bible. I ask questions to gain your perspectives and I am glad I have. I took you for possibly a born again evangelical, but your beliefs dwell outside the orthodox teachings of that strain of Christianity.

In any event, the events you refer to happened within the Jewish nation. Knowledge of these precepts you are referring to was scarce even among Israel and Judah's neighbors; and even within the Jewish nation itself at times, according to the history in the bible.

4. God and Christ are one, along with the Holy Spirit. But Christ was BOTH God AND human for a time. God required nothing. WE required and STILL require a blanket atonement for our sins. Because we needed it, God gave it to us in the ultimate way... the body of His only son.

Why did/do we require it?

But you have intimated that this ultimate way is not enough. It requires human faith as well, or there is not ticket punched to eternity with god, correct?

I'll keep the trinity conversation for another time

5. Hell is the absence of God, not a physical place. By our lives, we determine OURSELVES whether we shall be with Him forever... or without Him forever. He does not condemn anyone. We do it to ourselves.

So, hell is a spiritual blackness? A void?

Ok. Why must we make a choice? By whose hand was this machination devised? Did god not create this "hell"?

 

[oldrover]

1. Are you contending that even if you have an inkling of a thought that Jesus is the real deal that you are counted among the redeemed?

2. "Us" is referring to who? The whole human race? Outside of the Jewish nation, there was little to no concept of Moses' teachings until the first or second century CE at the very earliest. The earliest known recording of the Adam and Eve story comes from within the last millenium BCE. Or are you referring to a more vague notion of "god" that most of humanity has had in recorded history (and likely earlier)?

3. I'm actually pretty familiar with the bible. I ask questions to gain your perspectives and I am glad I have. I took you for possibly a born again evangelical, but your beliefs dwell outside the orthodox teachings of that strain of Christianity.

4. Why did/do we require it?

But you have intimated that this ultimate way is not enough. It requires human faith as well, or there is not ticket punched to eternity with god, correct?

5. So, hell is a spiritual blackness? A void? Ok. Why must we make a choice? By whose hand was this machination devised? Did god not create this "hell"?

1. I don't know. But there are Bible passages that leave that door open.

2. I refer to the Jews as 'us'. I am not Jewish, but God made them His chosen people, and then allowed His son to open the doorway to us Gentiles. In a very real way, all Christians are Jewish.

3. Born-again evangelicals are not orthodox Christians in any sense of the word. They do not believe in Holy Communion, despite the clarity of John Chapter 6... they believe in the Bible alone, and nowhere within the Bible does it say the Bible alone is enough... they do not believe in the sacraments (baptism, marriage, reconciliation, etc.). I was an evangelical for a while... there are many plusses to that recent strand of Christianity, especially how versed they are in scripture. But orthodox they are not. Orthodoxy you will find in, well, the Orthodox Churches and of course, the Catholic Church.

4. Because we can't stop sinning. We took free will and ran off to do whatever the hell we wanted, and God be damned. Not sure what you mean about Christ not being enough, though.

5. You're not getting it. Hell is not a place. You will either be with God... or you will be without God. God doesn't have to 'create' the absence of Himself. And as for choices, we make them every day. Exercise, raise kids, kick the dog, steal from a family member, you make those choices continuously. God is no different.

 

[The Brandon Five]

Values, yes. Independent of thoughts on religion or god. Those aren't the same.

That in itself is a value judgment.

 

[oldrover]

That and burning their temples and persecuting them.

If you don't believe your soul cannot be saved. Am I missing something? So basically most of the world isn't' going to be saved. That doesn't seem right to me.

Obviously, the burning of temples and persecution was wrong, and not what Christ commanded... although He did knock over a few temple tables in His day.

What doesn't seem right? It's logical. If one says to hell with God, one will not spend eternity with Him. It's painfully simple actually... although not as hilarious as your beloved depiction of my parents. Ask yourself... would I like it
if someone else made that comment about me and my parents? Maybe you would. But you KNOW it bothers me... and yet you still cling to it. Free will. Your choice.

 

[everlong]

Obviously, the burning of temples and persecution was wrong, and not what Christ commanded... although He did knock over a few temple tables in His day.

What doesn't seem right? It's logical. If one says to hell with God, one will not spend eternity with Him. It's painfully simple actually... although not as hilarious as your beloved depiction of my parents. Ask yourself... would I like it
if someone else made that comment about me and my parents? Maybe you would. But you KNOW it bothers me... and yet you still cling to it. Free will. Your choice.

I'm sorry I found the Stockholm line funny and offended you, really.

According to Christian beliefs: God made us in his image, god is infallible and yet god made 75% of the world's population to be banished and not spend eternity with him?

That doesn't seem right to me.

 

[chicowalker]

That in itself is a value judgment.

only to the extent that everything is a value judgment

but I'd contend that if you can't distinguish between a person's religious beliefs and their values, that's the start of a problem -- both on an individual level and on a group level