Patriots Rumor Butler & Saints working towards finalizing a deal (Thread now UFC Pats Fans Event)

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

So you start from BB certainly cheated and build a story from there?

No way he would risk that.

Another thing that happens all the time and normal business in the NFL but only the Pats would get nailed for it. You could call it "cheating" - that sounds a lot like whiny fanbases, though. Could have been a discussion where Payton told BB he wanted Butler...not saying he went out and intentionally broke the rules. But I think there are not a lot of avenues to go, considering the news that there was supposed to be a Butler-Cook trade, before the Saints "out of the blue and without the knowledge of the Patriots" suddenly decided to pursue a guy, thinking they would give up their first round pick, the first time a team would have done so in over ten years.

Not certainty, though. The only other way to explain it is the Saints leaked that they wanted Butler for Cooks, without the Patriots knowledge, so that Butler would not sign the tender and negotiate with them. But for some reason the idea of the Patriots moving on from Butler got leaked, and it would be one weird coincidence that it didn't happen during the Cooks talks, don't you think?

 

[Marqui]

There's a reason why the Patriots barely tried to pursue Logan Ryan

It's because he isn't that good.

 

[Ring 6]

Another thing that happens all the time and normal business in the NFL but only the Pats would get nailed for it. You could call it "cheating" - that sounds a lot like whiny fanbases, though. Could have been a discussion where Payton told BB he wanted Butler...not saying he went out and intentionally broke the rules. But I think there are not a lot of avenues to go, considering the news that there was supposed to be a Butler-Cook trade, before the Saints "out of the blue and without the knowledge of the Patriots" suddenly decided to pursue a guy, thinking they would give up their first round pick, the first time a team would have done so in over ten years.

Not certainty, though. The only other way to explain it is the Saints leaked that they wanted Butler for Cooks, without the Patriots knowledge, so that Butler would not sign the tender and negotiate with them. But for some reason the idea of the Patriots moving on from Butler got leaked, and it would be one weird coincidence that it didn't happen during the Cooks talks, don't you think?

If BB discussed trading a player not under contract he breaks the rules. He would not risk that then give the everybody does it excuse. We know how that one goes.

I don't know why you think coincidence makes it unlikely.
If Peyton wants butler he would have to do exactly what he is doing whether cooks existed or not.
Your argument now seems to be that he only wanted butler because of the cooks trade and wouldn't pursue him otherwise? That makes no sense.

 

[50-yard-line]

The problem with the idea that the Patriots would match the offer sheet and keep Butler on a long-term deal:

You make a false assumption that the Patriots would want to pay a high amount for a #1 corner and a #2 corner. There's a reason why the Patriots barely tried to pursue Logan Ryan, because it makes little sense for them to sign a CB2 for that much. Don't assume that a having a great CB1 and a great CB2 are critical to the team's success and that a great CB2 is a higher priority than other positions.

Look at the Seahawks. Their #2 corner looks great there with Sherman, Thomas, and Chancellor, but they don't think twice about letting him go or replacing him with anyone expensive. The Patriots have a similar secondary. They simply don't demand that much from the position, so they could likely get someone through the draft or a player they've already been developing for a fraction of the cost of Butler. Think of the 2000s Ravens getting rid of Bart Scott and Adalius Thomas. They did it for the same reasons, that they already had elite playmakers all over the front 7, so it was just overkill to keep spending there instead of investing in other areas. The dropoff was minimal when they replaced those guys with cheaper options.

In simple math, why pay $23M for two elite cornerbacks when your secondary will be 85-90% as effective with one $13M cornerback and a decent, cheap guy the other side who will get plenty of safety help.

I would compare a Butler signing to what the Jets did on their defensive line. By putting too many high profile stars on one defensive line, their return became less than spreading out elite players around the field. At some point, teams were able to just counter this by taking advantage of weaker units, like their linebackers or secondaries. They didn't have good players since they used all of their high draft picks and money on a bunch of defensive tackles/ends. Same thing with the Patriots. The secondary is great right now..that tells you teams will look at alternative ways to attack you. No point in adding more strength to strength. Beef up the trenches and other positions of need with the extra money/picks from Butler.

Signing/matching Butler to a big contract would be a great move...if this were the pre-salary cap era and return on investment was not the key factor. But that's not the world Belichick lives in, and allocating resources is one of his best skills.

Most ferocious defense in the AFC belongs to Denver. Two great corners are a big part of that.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Most ferocious defense in the AFC belongs to Denver. Two great corners are a big part of that.

Without wade phillips and demarcus ware?

 

[Marqui]

Without wade phillips and demarcus ware?

They past 2 years they were, and they had to elite highly paid CBs. And they won an SB with them.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Most ferocious defense in the AFC belongs to Denver. Two great corners are a big part of that.

And us signing Butler to a big deal would be the equivalent to them going and signing a top dollar free safety. We also have a very good secondary. Our big money is spent on CB1 and FS1. The Broncos do not a safety of McCourty's caliber. We don't have a CB2 of Harris's caliber. Still excellent units who would be unwise to make another big signing in a unit that already is a huge strength.

It's not that it never makes sense to get great CB1 and great CB2. It's just for the Patriots and their situation. They already have top paid players in Gilmore and McCourty, plus Harmon is a huge asset. Chung is good in coverage for a SS. In general secondaries are very good with two elite players and maybe one very good one. Seahawks are another example I gave who won't spend on CB2 since they have Sherman and Thomas (who really helps cover up any mediocre CB play.). If the Seahawks didn't have Thomas or the Patriots didn't have McCourty, then sure, spending $10M plus for two corners might be worth it.

But the reason they were willing to pay big bucks for McCourty is because he saves money at other positions, notably CB2. That is really his role, to help the weaker parts of the secondary that cannot win man to man coverage and require help.

 

[Marqui]

And us signing Butler to a big deal would be the equivalent to them going and signing a top dollar free safety. We also have a very good secondary. Our big money is spent on CB1 and FS1. The Broncos do not a safety of McCourty's caliber. We don't have a CB2 of Harris's caliber.

Terrible argument, Broncos have Ward who is a highly paid safety, who is about as good a SS as McCourty is a FS.

 

[mosslost]

@QuantumMechanic

 

[ivanvamp]

So it appears that there are 2 schools of thought here.

1. BB and SP both know the rules re: discussing trades for players not under contract and are ignoring them.

2. BB and SP, who have been *****-slapped harder by the league than any teams in history, are not de facto colluding in the Butler situation.

Oh, and 3... after it being said 3 thousand times cannot comprehend said rule.

I'm picking choice 2.

None of us has any idea what's really going on behind the scenes.

But what's the point of being a fan if you can't speculate?

 

[Palm Beach Pats Fan]

Thank you. This is helpful.

But that could easily be interpreted to refer to salary restructuring....

The problem with relying on a favorable interpretation of a vaguely-worded rule is that BB has gone on record with his own interpretation of what that rule means. Further, that interpretation would oppose what he is allegedly trying to do here.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Terrible argument, Broncos have Ward who is a highly paid safety, who is about as good a SS as McCourty is a FS.

Ward can't cover anyone. He plays in the box. If he is a member of the secondary, so is Chung. Roby the extra piece you are looking for to explain their pass defense. Ward helps more against the run and on dump offs, rarely playing receivers.

Also, Harmon just got a pretty nice deal, since he is essentially a starter and sometimes plays CB. A lot of investments for the Pats in guys who can cover.

Also, the Broncos did not have an overall elite defense last year, despite a great secondary. I

 

[ivanvamp]

The problem with relying on a favorable interpretation of a vaguely-worded rule is that BB has gone on record with his own interpretation of what that rule means. Further, that interpretation would oppose what he is allegedly trying to do here.

Yeah, I don't disagree. I'm just saying that it's possible that his interpretation isn't really what the rule is saying, and that his interpretation could be caused by a remembrance of the last time he flirted with the edge of a rule (Spygate) and got hammered for it. Maybe he's just totally playing it safe here with his interpretation.

And if he was on record as saying that's what he thinks the rule means, and then they engage in conversation about Butler, but it turns out that that's NOT what the rule means, then BB is NOT *actually* cheating. It would be like a person believing that going above 55 mph is against the law, not realizing that the speed limit is actually 65. Yes, it would be violating the law *in his mind*, but he wouldn't actually be speeding. So it wouldn't make him a cheater.

It's kind of the opposite of Spygate. If he felt like he was actually obeying the letter of the NFL rules, but it turned out he was actually in violation of them, does that mean he's "cheating"? Well, the league thought so.

I have NO idea if the Saints and Patriots have had ANY conversation about Butler. Nobody here knows. All we know is that the Patriots offered Butler the $3.9 million first round tender, he hasn't signed it, and Butler and the Saints have engaged in negotiations. That's it.

 

[chris_in_sunnyvale]

Ward can't cover anyone. He plays in the box. If he is a member of the secondary, so is Chung. Roby the extra piece you are looking for to explain their pass defense.

Also, Harmon just got a pretty nice deal, since he is essentially a starter and sometimes plays CB. A lot of investments for the Pats in guys who can cover.

Not a bad investment to double down on, though. Atlanta and Green Bay have weapons where the more cover guys the better is a decent rule to follow. Even Dallas with Zeke and that OL might make having more man coverage guys prudent if the Pats need to load the box. I think those are the top offenses the Pats would need to be ready for in a title defense.

Regards,
Chris

 

[ausbacker]

Terrible argument, Broncos have Ward who is a highly paid safety, who is about as good a SS as McCourty is a FS.

You are kidding right? You're joking right? Ward is an average Safety who has majorly benefitted from playing with high calibre players around him.

 

[deroc5050]

You are kidding right? You're joking right? Ward is an average Safety who has majorly benefitted from playing with high calibre players around him.

I don't watch enough of Ward or safety play in general to really give a definitive answer but the Denver defense is the best defense in the league in my opinion. And they match up very well with the Patriots.

There run defense might be suspect but there pass rush and secondary play is top notch.

 

[Edelmania]

Kinda off topic but we still need a good edge/de player really bad. All we have at DE is Flowers, Ealy, & Ninko and IMO Ninko might not even make the team. We should probably look to add 2 more DEs and there arnt many out there in FA anymore. A high Butler pick or 2 could help us acquire what we need.

Or maybe they are looking to switch to more of a 3-4 w/ Branch or Valentine at DT, and Guy/Brown at DE and sub in Flowers & Ealy on passing downs. If that is the plan that could help explain the high interest Belechick has shown in linebackers like Zach Cunningham. Because I think that in a 3-4 scheme we actually lack linebackers more than linemen.

 

[pherein]

A few comments on the more recent pages:

1. I think we can all agree that the #11 pick is NOT going to happen. Butler hardly makes sense for the 32nd pick plus his contract, let alone #11.

2. I think the BB/Payton "friendship" angle has been overblown. They have never coached together on any staff. He respects him, but that only goes as far as a professional level. He is NOT doing any favors for him, nor is he getting any.

3. All of the various scenarios that have been offered over the last 877 post are ALL speculation. All the "inside" information these reporters are getting is ALL speculation. I can't imagine any one in the Pats organization telling Giardi what's happening in any POSSIBLE negotiations with NO. Does that really sound like something that would happen.....to GIARDI?? but not Reiss or Curran?? When has ANY trade the Pats made become news before it happens.

No this is all coming from the agent, who has a vested position in getting this deal done. No this is a narrative that has been media driven and sold to us as fact, with all of us trying to connect the dots that gets us from speculation to reality.

4. The longer it goes on the less I think a trade will happen. I don't know about you but if I were a Saints fan, I think I could do better keeping the #11 and #32, PLUS finally start to get my cap under a semblence of control, rather than take Butler AND another big contract. (after a week to digest it, what are Saints fans thinking about the propect of adding Butler @pherein?)

5. On the other side, getting the #32 back might be better for the Pats in the long term, but for THIS year, having Butler back makes THIS team better and THIS secondary great.

Ithink @Plunkett2Vataha Had some very good insights into what the fan base is thinking,

Anthony has not played mentally to the physical level that he is capable of. This couple be a couching problem in my view. You don't suck this long if the coaching is even mediocre. We have a defensive coaching problem, and should have gotten phillips years ago when I said,


If as some keep saying , on and on, there is no legal wiggle room, and any other trade possibilities are impossible, and this is a strait #11 high priced deal for a eltite nice guy CB at 27. Then I say there is no way MB would have been asked to come to NO. There seems to be alot of CBA lawyers in the thread lol, and much smarter than SP and BB with their Team of lawyers.

Saints cant afford to lose a #11 with this draft, and maybe not even #32. Im sure SP has told BB this.

SP is desperate to build even a #15 defense. As someone pointed out we lost most of our games by 7pts or less or we'd be 11-5 easy, and that with Brees putting up 30pts a game. The defense is horrible.


For those that dont think SP and BB have a close relationship, Im not sure what to say.

"It means a lot," Belichick said. "I have a good friendship with Sean. We go back quite a ways. We’ve had a great working relationship, great professional relationship and a good personal relationship, so I’ve always appreciated his support. He’s had ours, we’ve had his, so I can’t say that about everybody, but certainly he’s been a good friend and good supporter."

Dont hear BB say personal to much and you can see it.


Im sure SP has talked or ranted about every guy on our roster and SP has BB's ear also. To say they are not friends is ... well.. you fill it in.


A cooks trade for #32 and lose 3 is ok but not that great. Saints could have farmed him for better or just keep him no matter what he thinks, The reports of wanting to be traded were overrated. BB knew about him because he torched your secondary in practice, and Im sure SP told BB how great Cooks is. Hes proved 2 seasons hes in the elite. We have until April 21 to farm him.

So why the move to Pats ? so soon ? I think we could have gotten a lower #1 and not lose a another pick if we sent him to another team.


SP has been a hard ass on deals and BB gives no favors , so I dont think anyone is doing anyone any favors here. But saying they never talked about MB and how to move him is SP wanted him? ... is ... fill in the blank

To say this was not part or they never talked about in the Cooks deal and including MB? ...fill in the blank


Im sorry but they talked about it and what it would take.


Most in NO don't think MB is worth a #11 and its 50/50 if hes even worth #32, because the CB draft is so good, MB is under sized, supported by a good defense that takes the pressure off being a balls out hero, and can he survive against the big WR's in the NFC south in the speed of a Dome ? We don't know. @Plunkett2Vataha is right we have some really cool decision with Pats fans that live here. They are so smart and its been great. For those that get tired of this stuff ..well if your a fan you dont. This will go on until April 21 I think so log off.


This is a very serious move for both teams. Our CAP was bown by godell and loomis trying to keep a team together. Kind of failed.

We need some help in the DS and MB could help us alot. The theory that Pats should always come out on top is not going to work here with SP and BB.


We don't want to take MB from Pats fans because we know the fans really love him there, but we need the help, and giving Pats the #32 back, a losing swap for NO is not really fare because we still lost a draft spot for a player who I think is special and elite but not better than Cooks for a number of reasons.


I think NO has some leeway in this deal though, because I really havent seen BB go after a player like Cooks since Moss this fast. BB knows what Cooks brings to the table and its because of SP and BB's talks.


so to answer your question the long way lol. Yes after the Byrd deal NO fans are very worried about spending CAP for and elite CB that will not pan out. We are worried he cant do it in a Dome. We are not worried that MB is a very smart CB that can make a DS good.


I seem to be pro deal to this I think by most, and Im not. I think we could have gotten more from a team if we farmed cooks, but as soon as SP and BB all other offers shut down, and I think we should keep the #11 and #32 pick because it gives you a better crapshoot chance to get a key defensive player.

But I love MB. Hes a great kid and story and deserves the money. Would be proud to see him come to his hometown in NO and have a great career. Its one of the few places I think he would be truly happy.
As some that dont know I am full on dyslexic so I apologies for grammer some times. but if you think your smarter than BB in this forum I disagree, he knows the rules and they are following them, so the witch hunt is silly.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Kinda off topic but we still need a good edge/de player really bad. All we have at DE is Flowers, Ealy, & Ninko and IMO Ninko might not even make the team. We should probably look to add 2 more DEs and there arnt many out there in FA anymore. A high Butler pick or 2 could help us acquire what we need.

Or maybe they are looking to switch to more of a 3-4 w/ Branch or Valentine at DT, and Guy/Brown at DE and sub in Flowers & Ealy on passing downs. If that is the plan that could help explain the high interest Belechick has shown in linebackers like Zach Cunningham. Because I think that in a 3-4 scheme we actually lack linebackers more than linemen.

Flowers is a 8-12 sack per year guy and Ealy has a ceiling of a 10-12 sack per year guy. I would say both are young breakout Star potential edge rushers. Especially flowers. We just need backups for depth

 

[Ring 6]

And us signing Butler to a big deal would be the equivalent to them going and signing a top dollar free safety. We also have a very good secondary. Our big money is spent on CB1 and FS1. The Broncos do not a safety of McCourty's caliber. We don't have a CB2 of Harris's caliber. Still excellent units who would be unwise to make another big signing in a unit that already is a huge strength.

It's not that it never makes sense to get great CB1 and great CB2. It's just for the Patriots and their situation. They already have top paid players in Gilmore and McCourty, plus Harmon is a huge asset. Chung is good in coverage for a SS. In general secondaries are very good with two elite players and maybe one very good one. Seahawks are another example I gave who won't spend on CB2 since they have Sherman and Thomas (who really helps cover up any mediocre CB play.). If the Seahawks didn't have Thomas or the Patriots didn't have McCourty, then sure, spending $10M plus for two corners might be worth it.

But the reason they were willing to pay big bucks for McCourty is because he saves money at other positions, notably CB2. That is really his role, to help the weaker parts of the secondary that cannot win man to man coverage and require help.

Denver paid a big contract to sign th ward as a FA safety.