Belichick's record without Brady since the Brady era began

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I think fans underrate the Squealers. They were loaded.

Call the reg season record what you want it to be. It wouldn't matter.

The team the Brady Patriots absolutely owned in every way…would have knocked them off head to head in the postseason? That’s your likely theoretical outcome? Agree to disagree (with passive aggressive politeness.)

 

[pazrul72]

Belichick didnt have what system in place? Of his players? Most of the star players on the 2001 team were there before Bill go here. Bruschi Law Milloy, etc. Sorry but he has a record with brady and without him. He installed his "system" when he got to NE, it just didnt work until he got a QB that could run it.

I HATE the argument that BB only used Parcells star players for the early dynasty. Bruschi was a special team player that didn’t crack the starting line up until BB took over and it wasn’t until 2003 he even sniffed a pro bowl so star player? No, just no, and that’s coming from someone who loves Tedy and thinks he was majorly snubbed. Not to mention robbed of his prime years when he had finally come into his own by the heart attack. Willie Mac? Exposed to the Texans draft because he was an oft injured under achiever until, let me check my notes, BB took over and put him at the Elephant position. Law and milloy hmm I seem to remember they had a great secondary coach in 96 during their formative years, who was that guy? Oh yeah, BB. All of those guys got better under BB which is the mark of a great coach. It just took him a year to get rid of the rest of the garbage and get his guys that bought into the program of hard work, adapting to new schemes weekly, and the team is greater then the parts. It’s not for everyone but there is 20 years of proof it’s a beautiful thing to watch for those that do.

 

[catent]

Dreighver is pissed

I don't know if pissed is the word, but that type of stuff annoys me.

To a certain extent I'm being a pedantic prick, but OTOH, I think there's a clear underlying bias coming through and inconsistent logic being used, and when that person simultaneously claims to be a neutral authority just surveying the situation objectively - when they clearly aren't - it bugs me ... a lot.

 

[RobertWeathers]

The team the Brady Patriots absolutely owned in every way…would have knocked them off head to head in the postseason? That’s your likely theoretical outcome? Agree to disagree (with passive aggressive politeness.)

Yep that's cool.

08 Squealers were the best team of the Roeth era.

08 Pats with Brady had serious flaws and we saw them at the end of the 07 season.

 

[Patsfanin Philly]

Since the 21st century began, we have missed the playoffs in 2000, 2002, 2008 and 2020?

that is incredible when you think about how many teams would kill to have even half that success!

And the aggregate record of those 4 years, is 32-32. (5-11, 9-7, 11-5, 7-9))

 

[gobesmug]

John Harbaugh. And I wouldn't put him in the same class as Belichick or Walsh. He is a great head coach, but I don't think he is a HOF head coach. And Harbaugh doesn't have final say in personnel decisions like Belichick has. Ozzie Newsome does. Who knows if Harbaugh would have taken Jackson if it was his choice. And Harbaugh has run his team that the defense and the running game will win games and not put too much on the QB.

And the Pats didn't revamp their offense all that much last year. They dumbed it down for the most part. Overall, it was the same offense. They did add a RPO aspect to it, but that was because Newton was limited as a passer that they had to.

But Newton is different than I was talking about. I was talking about getting a QB and building the offense around him because he is your QB of the future. Newton was always a stopgap until Belichick found his own QB of the future. Between drafting Jones, reports he was at least testing the waters for a trade with Garoppolo (if not making a real push), and rumor interest in Kellen Mond, shows that he was interested in QBs that could run his offense and not getting a potential stud QB like Justin Fields and building the offense around him.

I don't think John Harbaugh is anywhere near their level, but he is still a really good HC because he is able to change schemes and systems to match his players.

Jim Harbaugh did the same thing going from Alex Smith to Collin Kaepernick.

Look at how much KCs offense changed under Reid when it went from Alex Smith to Mahomes.

Now an example of a bad HC trying to force a player that doesn't fit a system is Nagy in Chicago.

Nagy keeps trying to force Justin Fields to be a pocket passer, which he is not. The stats who that when he is able to roll out of the pocket and become a threat to run, he greatly improves his passing stats.

Fields best game was when Nagy was out due to COVID so the OC called the plays and called a lot more roll out plays.

Fields needs an offensive scheme that allows him to be mobile, that is not what Nagy has been doing

 

[1960Pats]

Since the 21st century began, we have missed the playoffs in 2000, 2002, 2008 and 2020?

that is incredible when you think about how many teams would kill to have even half that success!

The Pats made the playoffs 17 times from 2000-2019. The rest of the list looks like this:
Indy - 15
GB - 14
Philly and Seattle - 13
Baltimore and Pitt - 12
NO, KC and Denver - 9
Atlanta, Minny and the Giants - 8
Carolina, Dallas, Cincy and Tenn - 7

On the other end there's Det - 3, Arizona and WTF - 4

So much for the NYFL's goal of parity

 

[1960Pats]

And the aggregate record of those 4 years, is 32-32. (5-11, 9-7, 11-5, 7-9))

The 9-7 and 11-5 teams tied for the AFCE title but missed the playoffs on tie-breakers. Basically, the Pats had the best record in the AFCE for 19 of the last 21 years.

 

[gobesmug]

Yep that's cool.

08 Squealers were the best team of the Roeth era.

08 Pats with Brady had serious flaws and we saw them at the end of the 07 season.

The only time I've been to a live game in Gillette was the Steelers vs the Matt Cassell led Patriots.

It was a messy game due to the freezing sleet rain.

With Brady in 08 that team at worst guess 14-2.

That game against the Steelers would have been won with Brady. Cassell played like an Ave QB who didn't know how to play in bad weather.

That season the only definite loss was the Dolphins, and even that isn't guaranteed, because the Pats could have won a shootout with Brady.

Moss still had some gas in the tank, and Brady's chemistry with him and Welker would have been better than the 07 season.

We got cheated out of seeing what would have been another historically great season of Brady to Moss

 

[RobertWeathers]

The only time I've been to a live game in Gillette was the Steelers vs the Matt Cassell led Patriots.

It was a messy game due to the freezing sleet rain.

With Brady in 08 that team at worst guess 14-2.

That game against the Steelers would have been won with Brady. Cassell played like an Ave QB who didn't know how to play in bad weather.

That season the only definite loss was the Dolphins, and even that isn't guaranteed, because the Pats could have won a shootout with Brady.

Moss still had some gas in the tank, and Brady's chemistry with him and Welker would have been better than the 07 season.

We got cheated out of seeing what would have been another historically great season of Brady to Moss

I really don't care what their record people think it might be. 14-2. 15-1. 12-4. Whatever.

What we do know is the latter 1/2 of the 2007 season they were no longer scoring 40ppg but 27ppg.

Same cast of characters on offense with Brady in 09 scored 26.7ppg

Maybe the 0 scores 30 a game. Fine.

The 08 starting secondary consisted of Ellis Hobbs, Delta ONeil, James Sanders and Big Bang Clock. The pass defense was horrible. They are not winning a SB with that. The pass rush dropped off significantly in 08. No Asante, Colvin or Seau.

They were 31st in red zone defense.

Rodney and AD went on IR.

Seems a lot closer to 09 outcome than 07 to me.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't think John Harbaugh is anywhere near their level, but he is still a really good HC because he is able to change schemes and systems to match his players.

Jim Harbaugh did the same thing going from Alex Smith to Collin Kaepernick.

Look at how much KCs offense changed under Reid when it went from Alex Smith to Mahomes.

Now an example of a bad HC trying to force a player that doesn't fit a system is Nagy in Chicago.

Nagy keeps trying to force Justin Fields to be a pocket passer, which he is not. The stats who that when he is able to roll out of the pocket and become a threat to run, he greatly improves his passing stats.

Fields best game was when Nagy was out due to COVID so the OC called the plays and called a lot more roll out plays.

Fields needs an offensive scheme that allows him to be mobile, that is not what Nagy has been doing

First, I never said head coaches can't or won't change their systems. I said great head coaches/GMs find great players who fit their system and only change the system to match the player if they get a player they know is a potential HOFer or at least strongly believe it. Otherwise, it isn't worth it. Belichick did change his defense quite a bit with both Talib and Revis. Before those two, the Pats were a zone base and went to a man base. But didn't totally defense. Just made major changes.

Second, to my last point. Belichick is constantly tweaking both his offense and defense to fit the talent he has. Again, he isn't making wholesale changes, but he is doing things to put his players in the best position to succeed. The Pats have moved back to a cover 2 zone this season because he doesn't have two outside CBs he can trust to cover the outside receivers one on one.

Third, I never said Belichick would ever try to force fit a QB into his system. At least not long term. Again, that is why I said that he drafted Jones. Jones' playing style is perfect for the Pats' offensive system. He is very Brady like in his style which is what attracted Belichick to him since this offense needs a smart pocket passer who can go through his progressions quickly, throws with anticipation because this is a timing offense, can read the defense and knows the route adjustments, and throws into tight windows. He was lucky enough to have a guy who fits that bill drop on his lap this draft. Word was they didn't want Fields. Why? Most likely because although he has All World potential, he doesn't possess most of the qualities I just listed. Or at least they are his strengths.

 

[Darrone]

We talk a lot about "armchair quarterbacks", but this thread has proven "armchair statisticians" are far far more insufferable.

 

[gobesmug]

I really don't care what their record people think it might be. 14-2. 15-1. 12-4. Whatever.

What we do know is the latter 1/2 of the 2007 season they were no longer scoring 40ppg but 27ppg.

Same cast of characters on offense with Brady in 09 scored 26.7ppg

Maybe the 0 scores 30 a game. Fine.

The 08 starting secondary consisted of Ellis Hobbs, Delta ONeil, James Sanders and Big Bang Clock. The pass defense was horrible. They are not winning a SB with that. The pass rush dropped off significantly in 08. No Asante, Colvin or Seau.

They were 31st in red zone defense.

Rodney and AD went on IR.

Seems a lot closer to 09 outcome than 07 to me.

I'm not saying they win the Superbowl in 08, a lot of stuff has to go right to win.

The 07 Pats only lost because a lot of things went right for the Giants. (Injuries to Faulk and Neal, Helmet catch, 2 dropped Ints, failed fumble recovery, in the grasp sack and blatant holding on helmet catch, and a perfectly defended pass that stopped a 80 yard game winning TD pass by Moss on the 3rd down pass).

The Giants needed and got a lot of breaks to beat the superior 07 Pats and they got them.

And yes, the difference between Cassell and Brady with the same team is drastically different.

The 09 offense was not nearly the same. Moss had lost a step and Brady was still recovering from his knee injury.

The 08 def still had Seau, Rodney Harrison, Mike Vrabel, Richard Seymour in his prime, a motivated Addalius Thomas, and Brandon Meriwether was still a decent safety who played for years in the league.

It was the 09 def that sucked because it lost all of the vets from Superbowl years, they traded 2 stalwarts in Seymour and Vrable and Harrison retired. No wonder A Thomas became a cancer

 

[gobesmug]

First, I never said head coaches can't or won't change their systems. I said great head coaches/GMs find great players who fit their system and only change the system to match the player if they get a player they know is a potential HOFer or at least strongly believe it. Otherwise, it isn't worth it. Belichick did change his defense quite a bit with both Talib and Revis. Before those two, the Pats were a zone base and went to a man base. But didn't totally defense. Just made major changes.

Second, to my last point. Belichick is constantly tweaking both his offense and defense to fit the talent he has. Again, he isn't making wholesale changes, but he is doing things to put his players in the best position to succeed. The Pats have moved back to a cover 2 zone this season because he doesn't have two outside CBs he can trust to cover the outside receivers one on one.

Third, I never said Belichick would ever try to force fit a QB into his system. At least not long term. Again, that is why I said that he drafted Jones. Jones' playing style is perfect for the Pats' offensive system. He is very Brady like in his style which is what attracted Belichick to him since this offense needs a smart pocket passer who can go through his progressions quickly, throws with anticipation because this is a timing offense, can read the defense and knows the route adjustments, and throws into tight windows. He was lucky enough to have a guy who fits that bill drop on his lap this draft. Word was they didn't want Fields. Why? Most likely because although he has All World potential, he doesn't possess most of the qualities I just listed. Or at least they are his strengths.

Belichick didn't have the first pick in the draft so we will never know who he would have drafted from the QBs in this past class.

If Mac was always his guy then he made a huge mistake not trading up to secure Mac. You don't leave the most critical position up to chance unless you have uncertainties.

Bill lucked into Mac. Nothing wrong with that, it always take a certain amount of luck in life to have success.

Just like Bill lucked into having Brady last until the 6th Rd because GMs were stupid and paid too much attention to his combine picture instead of his on field play

 

[RobertWeathers]

I'm not saying they win the Superbowl in 08, a lot of stuff has to go right to win.

The 07 Pats only lost because a lot of things went right for the Giants. (Injuries to Faulk and Neal, Helmet catch, 2 dropped Ints, failed fumble recovery, in the grasp sack and blatant holding on helmet catch, and a perfectly defended pass that stopped a 80 yard game winning TD pass by Moss on the 3rd down pass).

The Giants needed and got a lot of breaks to beat the superior 07 Pats and they got them.

Sorry. I'm answering the question of 08 Pats w Brady vs 08 Squealers.

Yes a lot of things went wrong in SB42. We should have won but it was indicative to how far the offense had fallen. From the Philly game onward the offense was averaging 27 a game.

And yes, the difference between Cassell and Brady with the same team is drastically different.

The 09 offense was not nearly the same. Moss had lost a step and Brady was still recovering from his knee injury.

The 08 def still had Seau, Rodney Harrison, Mike Vrabel, Richard Seymour in his prime, a motivated Addalius Thomas, and Brandon Meriwether was still a decent safety who played for years in the league.

It was the 09 def that sucked because it lost all of the vets from Superbowl years, they traded 2 stalwarts in Seymour and Vrable and Harrison retired. No wonder A Thomas became a cancer

I'm referring to the 08 defense not the 09 defense.

If you look at Moss's numbers from Philly game to beyond they were average. Teams let Welker catch the ball.

Seau only played 4 games in 08. Rodney only 6 games in 08. Vrabel was not the same player. AD landed on IR. Merriweather was decent but the Asante and Rodney losses were a killer in 08. Colvin was also gone.

So if the argument is would 08 Pats w/ brady beat 08 Steelers it's a no from me.

Would the 08 offense with Brady be just like 07 before the Philly game, I don't think so for the reasons I mentioned

 

[sb1]

Pats very likely make the playoffs in 08 with Brady so anything can happen. But I agree the defense regressed big time. I doubt they’d get out of the AFC and wouldn’t have surprised me if they were one and done.

One of the worst 3rd down defenses in the league, bottom 10 in getting turnovers and bottom 10 in passer rating allowed - and all of that even with the benefit of a very easy schedule which they wouldn’t get in the playoffs. That secondary was atrocious.

 

[gobesmug]

Sorry. I'm answering the question of 08 Pats w Brady vs 08 Squealers.

Yes a lot of things went wrong in SB42. We should have won but it was indicative to how far the offense had fallen. From the Philly game onward the offense was averaging 27 a game.



I'm referring to the 08 defense not the 09 defense.

If you look at Moss's numbers from Philly game to beyond they were average. Teams let Welker catch the ball.

Seau only played 4 games in 08. Rodney only 6 games in 08. Vrabel was not the same player. AD landed on IR. Merriweather was decent but the Asante and Rodney losses were a killer in 08. Colvin was also gone.

So if the argument is would 08 Pats w/ brady beat 08 Steelers it's a no from me.

Would the 08 offense with Brady be just like 07 before the Philly game, I don't think so for the reasons I mentioned

Yeah I was commenting on the fact that the 08 defense was still loaded with talent.

Still had Vrabel, Seau, Rodney, Richard Seymour in his prime, Wilfork, ROTY Jerod Mayo, a still motivated Addalius Thomas, Ty Warren, Meriwether and James Sanders to rotate between Rodney.

The 08 defense was pretty much the same sans Asante and Colvin, but they added Mayo which allowed Thomas to move outside permanently.

So basically it was only Asante that was a loss.

I only brought up 09 because I think you are confused with when the def drastically changed.

The 08 team was still really good. With Matt Cassell they went 11-5 and played competitively in their foxboro matchup. No doubt in my mind from having seen the game live, that they win that game with Brady.

It's not a guarantee they win the Superbowl but it's crazy to count them out as well with a healthy Brady.

 

[RIpats88]

saying Bill can win NFL games without brady (which he has) doesn't take away from Brady's greatness. and saying Brady can win games without Bill doesn't take away Bill's greatness. not sure why it has to be one or the other.

 

[NG Pats Fan]

Yep that's cool.

08 Squealers were the best team of the Roeth era.

08 Pats with Brady had serious flaws and we saw them at the end of the 07 season.

04 steelers were loaded 15-1. Brady owned them, he was their daddy. In 10 they were just as good as 08. Brady owned them at Heinz

brady always owner them, especially at Heinz . 08 Brady smokes the steelers

 

[NG Pats Fan]

LOL at anyone thinking a Steelers 2000s team could beat any Brady led team in postseason

brady owned them. He knew it, we knew it, they knew it