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crawhammer

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
It’s funny how you BB haters only want to take Bill’s good draft choices from him… odd how that works.
That's probably not a fair statement. Belichick has made some very good draft selections but, in the aggregate, he's been way more miss than hit.

Chandler Jones and Dont'a Hightower especially were solid picks in '12, but looking back at the 9 drafts since, Belichick's had some terrible picks from the first two rounds alone: Aaron Dobson, Dominique Easley, Malcolm Brown, Jordan Richards, Cyrus Jones, N'Keal Harry and Joejuan Williams.

Conversely, I don't think he's really had a home run on many of the other 1st or 2nd round picks. Maybe Barmore? Mac Jones was the last 1st round rated QB left on the board. Even still we'll see if Jones can keep up with the other young guns in the AFC.

Sony Michel gets a passing grade because of the '18 postseason but they drafted his replacement a year later and he was completely useless to the Rams this postseason.

Joe Tuney was good until he was deemed expendable by BB.

Garoppolo to me isn't a good draft pick. We got nothing out of him and then not a whole lot in return. Now he can't stay healthy in SF and he's a liability in the postseason. They would be wise to make a hard push at getting Brady out of retirement.

Beyond the first two rounds I'm seeing a lot of trash there as well. Too many to mention.

Here are some draft picks that I like a lot in any round from 2013 forward:

Jamie Collins for 3 seasons, '14, '15 & '19. Should have gotten more out his talent but I like the pick.
James White
Shaq Mason
Joe Tuney
Damien Harris
Rhamondre Stevenson
Christian Barmore

Generally I'm not big on running backs but seemingly the Patriots will be relying heavily on their run game so I like the duo of Harris and Stevenson.
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
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Braxton Berrios would fit in nicely in the slot in place of Meyers, plus he’d give them a lot of juice on kickoff returns.

When Jon Jones went down with injury Keion Crossen would have slid in there nicely, the kid’s really talented and played well for us as a rookie in 2018. Darryl Roberts is not as talented as Crossen but more talented than Myles Bryant.

Kamu Grugier-Hill would be handy now with all the free agent LB’ers we have to replace or re-sign, he’s a good player with speed.

Jon Halapio started almost the entire season for the Giants at center and played well until he got hurt. Hjalte Froholdt is another interior linemen who can play center or guard who they didn’t want to let go, but they had a roster crunch in a title chase and hoped to sneak him on the PS.

These are the ones who could start now or make the roster as contributors. Good drafted players they had no way of keeping.
The only one's i would take is grugier Hill. I believe Berrios would be a nice fit but he isn't as good as you make him.
Halapio did not play since the 2019 season i believe
Froholdt is a PS Player on other teams as well. He is not good.
shaun wade can hopefully serve as a slot option since he excelled there in college
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
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BB has full control over football operations.

I don’t believe rumors about BB being forced to trade Jimmy, especially when John Lynch called to check on his availability in trade, was told no then inquired about Tom and BB literally laughed at him. Reported by Jay Glazer, confirmed by Lynch himself.

I think Kraft worked hand in hand to keep the peace and make smart decisions, I also know that if Kraft interfered again by insisting on buying the groceries BB would have 31 teams inquiring about his interest in coaching.

It’s funny how you BB haters only want to take Bill’s good draft choices from him… odd how that works.
Turn it the other way around
It's funny how you BB homers defend bad draft picks and want to make every decision look good

You see how much sense this does?
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
That's probably not a fair statement. Belichick has made some very good draft selections but, in the aggregate, he's been way more miss than hit.

Chandler Jones and Dont'a Hightower especially were solid picks in '12, but looking back at the 9 drafts since, Belichick's had some terrible picks from the first two rounds alone: Aaron Dobson, Dominique Easley, Malcolm Brown, Jordan Richards, Cyrus Jones, N'Keal Harry and Joejuan Williams.

Conversely, I don't think he's really had a home run on many of the other 1st or 2nd round picks. Maybe Barmore? Mac Jones was the last 1st round rated QB left on the board. Even still we'll see if Jones can keep up with the other young guns in the AFC.

Sony Michel gets a passing grade because of the '18 postseason but they drafted his replacement a year later and he was completely useless to the Rams this postseason.

Joe Tuney was good until he was deemed expendable by BB.

Garoppolo to me isn't a good draft pick. We got nothing out of him and then not a whole lot in return. Now he can't stay healthy in SF and he's a liability in the postseason. They would be wise to make a hard push at getting Brady out of retirement.

Beyond the first two rounds I'm seeing a lot of trash there as well. Too many to mention.

Here are some draft picks that I like a lot in any round from 2013 forward:

Jamie Collins for 3 seasons, '14, '15 & '19. Should have gotten more out his talent but I like the pick.
James White
Shaq Mason
Joe Tuney
Damien Harris
Rhamondre Stevenson
Christian Barmore

Generally I'm not big on running backs but seemingly the Patriots will be relying heavily on their run game so I like the duo of Harris and Stevenson.
In the aggregate…? The average NFL career lasts 3 years. The large majority of draft picks and UDFA’s fail… regardless of round.

If a GM hits on 30% of his picks he’s a good drafter. The majority of players for the last two decades on the most successful franchise in NFL history were acquired as rookies… were homegrown talent.

Something can’t be wildly successful and a failure… except on a Patriot fan site. Fans here are entitled and have forgotten how difficult it really is to win… especially to win consistently in a league built for parity and to win the most championships in history. This conversation is absurd… but makes sense to BB haters.
 

TheRainMaker

Voted most handsome by my mother
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
BB’s moves from 2014-2019 netted them 3 rings in four appearances and people are here arguing he sucks at his job.
He had Tom Brady and core players from drafts of 2009-2012 picking up the slack. Take those players away and they don't sniff 3 Super Bowl victories.
The Rams gave away their entire future to win one ring.
What is their future exactly? They have not won a Super Bowl in 23 years. So what makes you think the Rams doing it another way was the right thing to do? Most GM's that play the game your propose get fired because they mess up on the picks. Aside from the Brady Pats, most GM's had a slim to none chance of winning just one ring. If I was a Rams fan, I'd take that any day of the week going all in because nothing is guaranteed.
BB made the playoffs after his reset year, has all his picks, his franchise QB at a rookie pay scale, a good roster of young players, the ability to open up cap space to compete going forward. McVay might skip out the side door because it looks so bleak… borrowing a bunch of money you don’t have so you live like a king for a year isn’t smart.
Pump the brakes on Franchise QB and their roster has a ton of holes. McVay is now a Super Bowl Champion. It was worth it.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
The only one's i would take is grugier Hill. I believe Berrios would be a nice fit but he isn't as good as you make him.
Halapio did not play since the 2019 season i believe
Froholdt is a PS Player on other teams as well. He is not good.
shaun wade can hopefully serve as a slot option since he excelled there in college
Berrios just made the Pro Bowl… did you think this out?

The rest are contributing to their teams, and pretend for a moment players excel and thrive on a great team like the Pats rather than a league doormat.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
Turn it the other way around
It's funny how you BB homers defend bad draft picks and want to make every decision look good

You see how much sense this does?
This doesn’t happen. There are no BB honks. Suggesting a rookie player deserves a few years to prove whether he belongs or not is pragmatic realism, not defending Bill.

If I say I like a player prior to the draft, then the Pats draft him… I’m not defending Bill, I’m defending the player I had faith in leaving college.

BB apologists are imaginary reactions to haters and Brady fanboys who believe Brady magic made all things possible for two decades. I slam BB regularly. Nobody is beyond criticism.
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
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Berrios just made the Pro Bowl… did you think this out?
as an Returner, our return game isn't the biggest issue, gunner is fine, the problem ist the ST blocking
The rest are contributing to their teams, and pretend for a moment players excel and thrive on a great team like the Pats rather than a league doormat.
barely

Crossen with 23 defense snaps in the whole season despite being active for 16 games
froholdt 0 snaps on offense
Halapio 0 snaps since the 2019 season

how is this contributing?
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
He had Tom Brady and core players from drafts of 2009-2012 picking up the slack. Take those players away and they don't sniff 3 Super Bowl victories.

What is their future exactly? They have not won a Super Bowl in 23 years. So what makes you think the Rams doing it another way was the right thing to do? Most GM's that play the game your propose get fired because they mess up on the picks. Aside from the Brady Pats, most GM's had a slim to none chance of winning just one ring. If I was a Rams fan, I'd take that any day of the week going all in because nothing is guaranteed.

Pump the brakes on Franchise QB and their roster has a ton of holes. McVay is now a Super Bowl Champion. It was worth it.
Take away all the best players from any team and they won’t be great… the Pats aren’t unique in that regard. BB drafted Brady and those other good core players.

The double standard by which entitled Pats fans suggest the Rams method was great but Bill’s entirely more successful method that left him in better financial shape afterwards was “poor” is a laughably poor take.
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
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This doesn’t happen. There are no BB honks.
I am not sure
Suggesting a rookie player deserves a few years to prove whether he belongs or not is pragmatic realism, not defending Bill.
never argued about that
If I say I like a player prior to the draft, then the Pats draft him… I’m not defending Bill, I’m defending the player I had faith in leaving college.
the problem is the simple fact that there were not much contributors drafted who are a lock in the future plan of the pats
Too many misses and the fact that we were in a win now modus is not the reason for bad drafts, it's an apologie
BB apologists are imaginary reactions to haters and Brady fanboys who believe Brady magic made all things possible for two decades. I slam BB regularly. Nobody is beyond criticism.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
as an Returner, our return game isn't the biggest issue, gunner is fine, the problem ist the ST blocking

barely

Crossen with 23 defense snaps in the whole season despite being active for 16 games
froholdt 0 snaps on offense
Halapio 0 snaps since the 2019 season

how is this contributing?
Berrios also plays WR. I’d love to have Gunner returning punts and Berrios returning kickoffs but wishing something can happen doesn’t solve a roster crunch.

Crossen is a slot corner, he’s not starting. Halapio blew his knee out in the second to last game of 2019, he may have retired. Either way he was a good prospect they couldn’t afford to keep. Hill had 108 tackles last year, he’d be great to have, they had to choose between him or Elandon Robert’s back when. A bad team doesn’t have to choose, they keep them both.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
I am not sure

never argued about that

the problem is the simple fact that there were not much contributors drafted who are a lock in the future plan of the pats
Too many misses and the fact that we were in a win now modus is not the reason for bad drafts, it's an apologie
Trey Flowers and Thuney got massive deals, just because they’re not here doesn’t mean they were bad picks… it means they got priced out.

Al lot of the players negative nancy’s says aren’t good actually are… that’s not apologizing, it’s common sense.
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
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Trey Flowers and Thuney got massive deals, just because they’re not here doesn’t mean they were bad picks… it means they got priced out.

Al lot of the players negative nancy’s says aren’t good actually are… that’s not apologizing, it’s common sense.
and where did i say those players aren't good or were bad picks? They were home runs for mid round picks imo.
 

patsfanfromoversea

In the Starting Line-Up
2020 Weekly NFL Picks Winner
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Berrios also plays WR. I’d love to have Gunner returning punts and Berrios returning kickoffs but wishing something can happen doesn’t solve a roster crunch.

Crossen is a slot corner, he’s not starting. Halapio blew his knee out in the second to last game of 2019, he may have retired. Either way he was a good prospect they couldn’t afford to keep. Hill had 108 tackles last year, he’d be great to have, they had to choose between him or Elandon Robert’s back when. A bad team doesn’t have to choose, they keep them both.
I believe everyone would take berrios over gunner if you had to choose between those two.
Grugier Hill was good for Houston last year, i would add him depending on resigning of bentley or HT
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
and where did i say those players aren't good or were bad picks? They were home runs for mid round picks imo.
Take all the players from those drafts that they had to cut loose because there was no roster spot for them, plus all the successful players that let because they got massive deals elsewhere and what you'll find is those drafts weren't bad at at.

They made 4 picks in 2017, the first one didn't come until the third round... not making picks because you deferred all your picks to future drafts and traded for Brandin Cooks because your team is trying to repeat as champion is not "bad."

N'Keal was a bad pick, pretend they took AJ Brown instead and nobody could possibly complain. N'Keal is a patron saint of BB haters everywhere.
 

crawhammer

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
In the aggregate…? The average NFL career lasts 3 years. The large majority of draft picks and UDFA’s fail… regardless of round.

If a GM hits on 30% of his picks he’s a good drafter. The majority of players for the last two decades on the most successful franchise in NFL history were acquired as rookies… were homegrown talent.

Something can’t be wildly successful and a failure… except on a Patriot fan site. Fans here are entitled and have forgotten how difficult it really is to win… especially to win consistently in a league built for parity and to win the most championships in history. This conversation is absurd… but makes sense to BB haters.
In the larger view Belichick is only a failure without Brady. Specific to his drafts, I wouldn't say Belichick is a failure, but he's made a lot of horrible picks when some other wildly talented alternatives were sitting right there to be taken.

It's Brady-dependent, but there's no denying Belichick is the most accomplished HC in NFL history. You can't reasonably argue against him being labelled the GOAT HC (although Joe Gibbs did win 3 SB's with 3 different mediocre QB's). As a GM however, not so much. If he wins a Super Bowl with Mac Jones then you probably could loft him up on any perch of your choosing.

2020 was a really bad season for Belichick. Despite ending very poorly, 2021 was at least momentum in the right direction. If he can rebuild the team into a reliable annual contender then that would be something. It starts with first winning the division again.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
I believe everyone would take berrios over gunner if you had to choose between those two.
Grugier Hill was good for Houston last year, i would add him depending on resigning of bentley or HT
I'd rather have Gunner and Berrios... bad teams could afford to do that.

If a bad team drafts 7 players they can keep 7 players on their roster because they won 4 games last year and are not talented. They can't afford to cut talented but undeveloped players, bad teams play those players. Berrios didn't become a good player until year four, the Super Bowl contending Patriots couldn't wait around for him to develop... they're not the (7-2-4 win) Jets.
 

Wozzy

In the Starting Line-Up
In the larger view Belichick is only a failure without Brady. Specific to his drafts, I wouldn't say Belichick is a failure, but he's made a lot of horrible picks when some other wildly talented alternatives were sitting right there to be taken.

It's Brady-dependent, but there's no denying Belichick is the most accomplished HC in NFL history. You can't reasonably argue against him being labelled the GOAT HC (although Joe Gibbs did win 3 SB's with 3 different mediocre QB's). As a GM however, not so much. If he wins a Super Bowl with Mac Jones then you probably could loft him up on any perch of your choosing.

2020 was a really bad season for Belichick. Despite ending very poorly, 2021 was at least momentum in the right direction. If he can rebuild the team into a reliable annual contender then that would be something. It starts with first winning the division again.
The Patriots won 11 games in 2008 and scored the 4th most points in the league with Matt Cassel, they were great with JimmyG starting and even competitive with Brissett playing with a torn tendon in his throwing hand.

2020 was a rebuilding season, a season to reset the cap.... something I said before the season began. Hell I suggested months before Brady made the decision to leave it would probably be the smartest thing for both parties, the math didn't lie. If fans didn't want to accept that, then the fault lays with those fans.

Jimmy Johnson - season one: 1-15 - season two: 7-9
Bill Walsh - season one: 2-14 - season two: 6-10
Chuck Noll - season one: 1-13 - season two: 5-9 - season three: 6-8
Tom Landry - season one: 0-11-1 - season two: 4-9-1 - season three: 5-8-1
Bill Parcells - season one: 3-12-1 - season two: 9-7

That's ^ what a rebuild from scratch looks like... did those guys suck as well?

Good grief... A GM/Coach is not a player. He can't just pull up stakes like Brady going to Tampa, Durant going to the Warriors or LeBron taking his talents to South Beach. It's a process, it involves rosters of 53 men and dozens more coming and going through the talent pipeline. This imaginary competition between Tom and BB is dumb, it's apples/oranges. It's an argument for small minds.
 

crawhammer

Rotational Player and Threatening Starter's Job
The Patriots won 11 games in 2008 and scored the 4th most points in the league with Matt Cassel, they were great with JimmyG starting and even competitive with Brissett playing with a torn tendon in his throwing hand.
They lost 5 more games in '08 than '07 and missed the playoffs. Which is about right, Brady's worth a 5-game swing and a guaranteed playoff spot (usually the division). I'm pretty sure Garoppolo played 1.5 games in '16 and Buffalo shutout NE with Brissett. Even Rex Ryan knew it was fool's gold, saying post-game they hadn't beaten the real Patriots team. Brady hung 41 points on Buffalo four weeks later.

2020 was a rebuilding season, a season to reset the cap.... something I said before the season began. Hell I suggested months before Brady made the decision to leave it would probably be the smartest thing for both parties, the math didn't lie. If fans didn't want to accept that, then the fault lays with those fans.
My point was Brady won a Super Bowl with another team immediately while Belichick had a losing season another quarterback. Whatever the reasons you want to apply, the end result was a very bad outcome for BB. I don't want to open another can of worms but there were scenarios whereby Brady could have finished out his career in NE. However, I do think his signing elsewhere worked out very well for him.

Jimmy Johnson - season one: 1-15 - season two: 7-9
Bill Walsh - season one: 2-14 - season two: 6-10
Chuck Noll - season one: 1-13 - season two: 5-9 - season three: 6-8
Tom Landry - season one: 0-11-1 - season two: 4-9-1 - season three: 5-8-1
Bill Parcells - season one: 3-12-1 - season two: 9-7

That's ^ what a rebuild from scratch looks like... did those guys suck as well?
Well no but ^ doesn't take into account that with Brady the Patriots won 16 division titles in a row before the "rebuild." All of those other coaches inherited awful football teams with awful records (except Landry who was entering an even worse situation than that). Parcells turned around 4 separate franchises for Christ's sake. Belichick accomplished very little in Cleveland and was going nowhere fast until Mo Lewis happened. He's the GOAT HC (with Brady). I'm not crowning him the GOAT GM.

Good grief... A GM/Coach is not a player. He can't just pull up stakes like Brady going to Tampa, Durant going to the Warriors or LeBron taking his talents to South Beach. It's a process, it involves rosters of 53 men and dozens more coming and going through the talent pipeline. This imaginary competition between Tom and BB is dumb, it's apples/oranges. It's an argument for small minds.
There wasn't a bigger loser franchise in all of professional sports than Tampa Bay so let's not act like Brady walked into the '85 Chicago Bears.

Right, it's apples/oranges, but it makes for an interesting debate and no one is saying you have to participate. They accomplished a great deal together being the only two constants throughout the entire dynasty but the Buccaneers looked a lot like the Patriots-south for the last two seasons. And that's with BA aimlessly bumbling around the sideline.
 

ashley1992

Moderator
Staff member
PatsFans.com Supporter
2020 was a really bad season for Belichick.
I thought it was one of his best coaching jobs ever...he won 7 games with a team that had not much talent...comes back in 2021 with Executive of the Year...not too shabby....I think the team is going in the right direction. I will always be thankful to BB for having a big part of us winning 6 Super Bowls....can never understand the hate for the goat of coaches, especially when he is our coach.
 

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