Bad news from Peter King

[Deus Irae]

Don't have access to all the data, but I'm assuming you're implying that something the Pats are doing is causing db injuries? It's possible, we certainly seem to have worse luck than others in that regard, but somehow I just think with all the resources at their disposal that if their training staff was inadequate, or their program was causing injuries, they would adjust.

Statistically, we're an anomaly, but that doesn't mean you can build a team around reactionary injury concerns.

New England plays small corners and asks them to be as physical as linebackers. It's not reactionary injury concerns when the same thing happens year after year. Hobbs was the kind of player who played through broken wrists, torn labrums and groin injuries. Springs is closer to J.D. Drew than to Ellis Hobbs III when it comes to playing through injuries.

 

[JSn]

Springs is technically a corner, but doesn't anyone see him in some kind of free safety role?

Wilhite was playing pretty well by year's end and we saw it coming on with Wheatley. That development doesn't end after the last game.

Fragility aside (anything CAN happen), we're looking good at CB. I'm more worried about the loss at KR, though, and with the disappearance of the 3 man wedge, we need a tough MOFO at KR. And it's not even arguable that Hobbs isn't tough. He's a machine in that respect.

My guess is that the starters by year's end will be Bodden, Wilhite and Wheatley/Butler. If Bodden lights it up, they'll likely try to re-sign him early.

If not, a corner in a contract year is good news. Is he better than Hobbs at CB? Guess we'll find out.

 

[Sicilian]

New England plays small corners and asks them to be as physical as linebackers. It's not reactionary injury concerns when the same thing happens year after year. Hobbs was the kind of player who played through broken wrists, torn labrums and groin injuries. Springs is closer to J.D. Drew than to Ellis Hobbs III when it comes to playing through injuries.

So how many CBs do you carry? 6? 7? Which positions do you sacrifice to carry them? LB where we have as many if not more question marks? DL where we really only have one backup for each position?

What about offense, where we only have four WRs that could be every day players (not including Tate, for now)? Or RB where we've also had injury problems in recent years? Or OL where we're aging and usually only dress a couple backups per game anyway?

Where do you fit these extra starting quality CBs?

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Springs is technically a corner, but doesn't anyone see him in some kind of free safety role?

We have 3 safeties now who all should be good unless Chung disappoints. Springs is a CB and we have no real reason to change that.

 

[Deus Irae]

So how many CBs do you carry? 6? 7? Which positions do you sacrifice to carry them? LB where we have as many if not more question marks? DL where we really only have one backup for each position?

What about offense, where we only have four WRs that could be every day players (not including Tate, for now)? Or RB where we've also had injury problems in recent years? Or OL where we're aging and usually only dress a couple backups per game anyway?

Where do you fit these extra starting quality CBs?

Right now, the team has ONE definite starting quality CB, and he's a 34 year old player who's played 1 full season this decade. I don't know where you're getting the "extra" notion.

 

[Sicilian]

Right now, the team has ONE definite starting quality CB, and he's a 34 year old player who's played 1 full season this decade. I don't know where you're getting the "extra" notion.

What I mean is, Bodden and Springs have been starters, thus they are starting quality. Wilhite, Wheatley, and Butler, are rookies or 2nd years who the organization is not going to drop if they feel have potential. Do you feel they should carry 6 cbs total, and if so, which position goes thinner in order to accomodate that extra corner?

 

[VJCPatriot]

Indeed. The Hobbs deal never struck me as part of some master plan/scheme. It seemed every bit as spontaneous for them as it was surprising for the NE fans. I just hope Hobbs doesn't go on to have an All-Pro year/career after this.

There's very little chance of that happening, so you can rest easy.

I would feel terrible about that, especially since I've never been sold on Springs and I still have major doubts about Bodden.

But apparently BB is sold on Springs and Bodden, or he wouldn't have deemed Hobbs expendable. I'll trust in BB over your general sense of unease.

Springs is technically a corner, but doesn't anyone see him in some kind of free safety role?

Nope, unless you were planning on sticking Meriweather on the bench.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Right now, the team has ONE definite starting quality CB

I think Belichick disagrees with that. If he agreed with you then he wouldn't have traded Hobbs. I have no doubt he thinks Springs and Bodden are starting quality. I think he considers Wheatley to be #3 quality but he has to stay healthy.

 

[Deus Irae]

What I mean is, Bodden and Springs have been starters, thus they are starting quality. Wilhite, Wheatley, and Butler, are rookies or 2nd years who the organization is not going to drop if they feel have potential. Do you feel they should carry 6 cbs total, and if so, which position goes thinner in order to accomodate that extra corner?

Wilhite and Wheatley have been starters too. Being a starter and being starter quality really aren't the same in my mind. Deltha O'Neal was a starter last season.....

As for how many they should carry, that's really not my call. BB seems to prefer carrying 5 and then having to sign someone off the scrap heap during the season. I would think that recent history would have caused him to reconsider that way of doing things. You know as well as I do that they can maneuver for one extra slot if they need to. You can see the flexibility available in mgteich's competition list:

http://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/10/233310-lots-competition-roster-spots.html#post1371033

 

[VJCPatriot]

Cameron Wake's emergence might derail JT's return to Miami.

Cameron Wake's progress with Miami Dolphins affects possible Taylor return - Sports - MiamiHerald.com

 

[Deus Irae]

I think Belichick disagrees with that. If he agreed with you then he wouldn't have traded Hobbs. I have no doubt he thinks Springs and Bodden are starting quality. I think he considers Wheatley to be #3 quality but he has to stay healthy.

No offense, but I don't care what BB thinks he has in Bodden. Until he "knows" what's there, because he sees it on the field, he's taking a risk. I'm sure he thought Bryant was a starting quality corner last year before camp changed his mind, and I'm sure he thought Duane Starks was a starting quality corner when he traded for him.

This was a needless risk, and that's the point. I'm quite confident that they could have gotten their man in some other way. It's not as if trading was a struggle for them during the draft or afterwards.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Being a starter and being starter quality really aren't the same in my mind.

You seemed OK with it here :

Bryant had been a 5 year starter in the league prior to his Detroit experience.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

No offense, but I don't care what BB thinks he has in Bodden.

Given that he's seen Bodden play in Crennel's defense, I would say that what Belichick thinks means a lot, more than what he thought of Bryant when he signed him.

 

[Deus Irae]

You seemed OK with it here :

The discussion there was about NFL success prior to joining the Lions, and was a comparison between two players as opposed to a general statement. Don't go getting all silly on me here. Leave that to Maverick & Company.

 

[Deus Irae]

Given that he's seen Bodden play in Crennel's defense, I would say that what Belichick thinks means a lot, more than what he thought of Bryant when he signed him.

Right.... and that's why giving up that pick for Starks doesn't count too, right? BB isn't perfect, and he didn't need to make this move. It was a needlessly risky move at a position that was already a struggle last year. Also, Bodden's success in Cleveland is getting overstated a lot here and was not last year. His play last year was good enough to get him cut by the 0-16 Lions.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Right.... and that's why giving up that pick for Starks doesn't count too, right?

No-one is saying that Belichick is infallible. However he's seen Bodden play in this defense and play well. And he's seen Wheatly/Wilhite play and clearly thinks they're at least adequate. It also suggests to me that Belichick considered Hobbs totally replaceable and while adequate enough to get on the field, just not that much of a loss.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Also, Bodden's success in Cleveland is getting overstated a lot here and was not last year. His play last year was good enough to get him cut by the 0-16 Lions.

He was due an $8.6M bonus - that will get a lot of players cut.

 

[Deus Irae]

No-one is saying that Belichick is infallible. However he's seen Bodden play in this defense and play well. And he's seen Wheatly/Wilhite play and clearly thinks they're at least adequate. It also suggests to me that Belichick considered Hobbs totally replaceable and while adequate enough to get on the field, just not that much of a loss.

Actually, the implication you made is clearly that he's infallible, or nearly so. In fact, you use the same reasoning in this post:

he's seen Bodden play in this defense and play well. And he's seen Wheatly/Wilhite play and clearly thinks they're at least adequate.

If BB thinks Wilhite was adequate last season as a starter, it's time for him to retire from coaching. As I've said, more than once, my issue is the needless taking of risk, and it's been taken at the team's worst position from last season.

 

[Sicilian]

Right.... and that's why giving up that pick for Starks doesn't count too, right?

I'm going to use an analogy from the athlete's perspective. Let's say there's a really good kicker, and he's made a lot of big kicks and had great success. Suddenly, he misses a few, ones he normally would make, ones he's made easily in the past. That kicker starts making strange adjustments to try to get the rhythm back, and ends up tweaking his mechanics too much and is never the same again.

We would say of that kicker that the misses got in his head, and that you need to be able to put those misses behind you and focus on doing the things you do well to get back on track.

When BB signs, drafts, or trades for a player that doesn't work out, do you then want him second guessing his decisions to the point where he does things out of character? You essentially want BB to say, "I feel good about these corners, but because I've made mistakes in the past, I'm going to sacrifice what I think is a chance to add depth and talent to other areas just in case I made a mistake here"?

I don't want my coach making decisions like that.

 

[VrabelMayeWin]

Actually, the implication you made is clearly that he's infallible, or nearly so.

Nope. But he has more information than we do. That doesn't mean what he's doing is always right but in his learned opinion there is a small enough difference between Hobbs and what he expects from the others to move on.

Me ? I'd have kept Hobbs.