Austin Carr and Jacob Hollister

[meatface]

Hard to know if that's meant in humor. Almost anyone can return kicks and jones fumbled what, 6x last year? Yeah, a horrible cb but he, he's also a fumbling stumbling kick returner. Huge position of need there.

He should be cut asap out of general principle of fairness. Demoralizing having udfas play well and then have them lose playing time to a teacher's pet 2nd round pick.

He is one of the biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league.

The Bucs literally just cut a kicker they took in the second round. Teams make mistakes in every draft and I dont think players are feeling demoralized because Jones is on the team

 

[kennyb]

Do you follow the draft much? Ever look at what happens to other teams' draft picks?

As bad a pick as Cyrus looks like at this point, he has no chance of making any list of "biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league." I mean, a player picked above Cyrus has already been cut. Then there are guys like Sergio Kindle, Baltimore's #43 overall pick who logged one career tackle.

The success rate of picks at the end of round 2 like Jones is well below 50%. That's just how the draft works.

I follow the draft quite a bit. I actually thought of sergio kindle as i wrote that. I think they dradted him in spite of a bum knee. Then he had narcolepsy and fell down a flight of stairs something like that. Bad pick, tragic circumstances.

It's rare or should be to draft a player as high as the pats did, who looks like he has no business being on the field. The first time i saw him play last year noticed he looked very slow within 5 seconds. How is it a highly paid scouting dept doesnt notice that? Isnt that pretty important for a db? He doesnt even run on the field, he just kind of shuffles his feet.
I want to see moore and killings play.
Someone needs to take the keys away from whomever is drafting slow dbs in the second round.

 

[supafly]

Just wait how people will freak out when Bolden gets a spot on the 53 for Slater who will go on IR* until he recovers.

I still don't think Bolden is the sure cut that most people feel, even if Slater returns to health. I think some may be overlooking one of the ST aces on the team in an attempt to get the next Brian Tyms on the squad.

His chances certainly aren't good, but I think it's strange how many people are automatically overlooking an experienced vet ST ace who can take over RB reps in an emergency situation for players that would likely either be buried on the depth chart, or make it through to the PS.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

How is it a highly paid scouting dept doesnt notice that? Isnt that pretty important for a db? He doesnt even run on the field, he just kind of shuffles his feet.

The question is Did he look so slow in college?

If so, then, yes, it is a failure of the scouting team.

If not, then it raises the question of what happened to slow him down.

 

[luuked]

I still don't think Bolden is the sure cut that most people feel, even if Slater returns to health. I think some may be overlooking one of the ST aces on the team in an attempt to get the next Brian Tyms on the squad.

His chances certainly aren't good, but I think it's strange how many people are automatically overlooking an experienced vet ST ace who can take over RB reps in an emergency situation for players that would likely either be buried on the depth chart, or make it through to the PS.

I agree, I think in the end it will be Grissom vs. Freeny vs. Bolden for a roster spot on the 53 via ST. I went with Grissom and Freeny (assuming Slater starts on IR) mostly because we are deep enough at RB where I'd rather have additional bodies somewhere else.

 

[supafly]

I agree, I think in the end it will be Grissom vs. Freeny vs. Bolden for a roster spot on the 53 via ST.

This is one of the reasons why I wish I had a better knowledge/understanding of the specific roles that each player has on the various ST units.

In other words for punt team duties (example), I know the two gunners, the long snapper and punter, and I know there's a personal protector, but I'm not sure if that means that all the remaining positions (6) would be wedge blockers or not? Also, if I recall correctly, Bolden has provided duties as the personal protector at times, and that isn't something that a guy like Grissom could necessarily provide, so we'd then have to assume that either Chung (we remember him having that role in his first stint here, mostly due to the fake punt gaffe in the 2010 divisional round loss to the NYJ) or maybe Burkhead could cover.

I know one thing, and that's that Bolden has laid some dudes out on the punt unit, both punting and return units. He's got quite the physical presence. We all remember the game vs SD where he destroyed the SD punter (Scifres, maybe?), not only knocking him out of the game, but I believe for the entire season. In other words, it seems as though he may have specific roles that fit his skill set well.

Knowing more about the specific duties would be helpful in trying to determine what kind of fit each specific ST only player would provide when attempting to make roster projections. You'd think that's something that more beat writers would be covering, but I guess they're just like me in the sense that we only notice when major plays occur. I'm wondering if one of our film rats would shed some light on the topic? As you mentioned, a potential loss of a guy like Slater would change things up in the sense that we'd need a replacement gunner to go along with (presumably) Brandon King.

 

[luuked]

I know one thing, and that's that Bolden has laid some dudes out on the punt unit, both punting and return units. He's got quite the physical presence. We all remember the game vs SD where he destroyed the SD punter (Scifres, maybe?), not only knocking him out of the game, but I believe for the entire season. In other words, it seems as though he may have specific roles that fit his skill set well.

I am bracing for downvotes but in my opinion Bolden was a hidden key cog of the 2014 SB team. He had multiple impact plays on ST.. that forced fumble against the Bengals at home comes to mind, or knocking out Cliff Avril in the SB. He is tough, does his job well and offers a certain amount of positional flexibility that just comes in handy when you have a hard limit of players on a squad.

To your overall point I totally agree. I wish there was more insight from Reiss or someone else following the team into ST especially given how much of a premium BB puts on it. I remember trying to get a better overview of ST units before the SB last season mostly because people in this board kept bringing up the Floyd vs. ST player issue up again and again.

 

[Bill Lee]

Not so fond memories about Chad Jackson come to mind.
We traded up for him something like a dozen spots in Round 2.
I was at camp during his preseasons. Brady absolutely had no use for the muscle bound moron. He's stop the play, waive Jackson over to a different spot and rarely threw to him. BB would then pull Chad out of the Brady 11. It's not like we were deep at WR either.
It's a rare high draft pick that you can go to camp and conclude after a couple weeks that he's an absolute bust but chad was the one.
In contrast, the early weeks at camp let anyone know that The Twig was gonna be a star.

It's interesting because I was listening to a podcast and a former GM was asked if he'd ever had a player with a high draft grade turn out to be an obvious bust early in training camp, and he said he had, and the reason was that the player just could not understand what he was being asked to do. You would think such players got weeded out of the draft process, but so much of the draft is about physical measurables, and in the college game players can go a long way just based on instinct rather than training, and they don't really need to learn how to follow directions to make the team at the college level.

Of course when this happens the GM admitted it was hard to deal with, because you had to admit the entire draft process failed to detect that the player wasn't up to the task, and the tendency was to hold on to the player and hope eventually he could pick it up.

Not sure exactly where players like Tyms and Tompkins went wrong, but it is very interesting to me that the Pats just threw in the towel when it came to drafting edge WRs and used their draft capital to get Cooks instead. Some times you just got to do something different.

I hope the Pats find a way to keep Carr, he'd be one more in a long line of undrafted relatively slow white slot receivers with great hands.

On the other hand, I was saying to myself that it's going to be hard for the Pats to find playing time for all the WRs that are already locks to make the team.

 

[Danger Zone]

...Side note: Carr's excellent performance was still against 2nd string CB's so I'm not sure what he'll look like against starting lineups. Hopefully the next couple of games will show us more.

That said, Carr is more than likely to never see top string cb's going up against him when hes on the field, what with who else is going to be on the field with him at the same time.

 

[Tony2046]

That said, Carr is more than likely to never see top string cb's going up against him when hes on the field, what with who else is going to be on the field with him at the same yime.

That's a great point.

 

[maineman209]

Of course when this happens the GM admitted it was hard to deal with, because you had to admit the entire draft process failed to detect that the player wasn't up to the task, and the tendency was to hold on to the player and hope eventually he could pick it up.

Obviously, there's a lot of internal politics and ego clashes in the front offices of many teams with regard to draft picks, both before selections are made and how they're treated afterward. And, of course, the owners often butt in and overrule the knowledgeable football guys.

For example, it was pretty clear for decades that Ford was greatly influencing the high round picks of the Lions, if not actually making the picks himself. And high-round picks, and big-name players acquired in trades, always got the most practice reps and game snaps even when many fans knew that there were more talented players of "lesser pedigree" relegated to the bench. That's the ego thing - the owner/GM can't bear to admit he was wrong - and/or the politics thing - the GM fearful of losing his job.

 

[tasmlab]

He is one of the biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league.

He may not even be the biggest 2nd round bust that was a DB and selected by Bill Belichick. (Looking at you Dowling, Darius, Wheatly, et all.)

 

[varjao]

Case Keenum has a season and a half of NFL starts under his belt. In the context of this conversation, that's a success story.

Under very poor programs we should note. With decent coaching and timing he could very well be in a Kirk Cousins situation right now.

That kid Foles is also another QB that was wasted due to poor coaching and GMing.

This is a situation that goes unnoticed most of the time. Jimmy G now is on the verge of making millions and there will be a dispute for his services. He could very well be toasted by now if drafted by a crap franchise.

 

[Bill Lee]

Under very poor programs we should note. With decent coaching and timing he could very well be in a Kirk Cousins situation right now.

That kid Foles is also another QB that was wasted due to poor coaching and GMing.

This is a situation that goes unnoticed most of the time. Jimmy G now is on the verge of making millions and there will be a dispute for his services. He could very well be toasted by now if drafted by a crap franchise.

Where does Brock Ostweiler fit into this picture? Drafted into traditionally strong program, gets a season to watch Payme, does well enough so the Donks get into a bidding war with the Texans over his services, then one season later the Texans pay the Browns to pick up his hideous contract.

 

[varjao]

Where does Brock Ostweiler fit into this picture? Drafted into traditionally strong program, gets a season to watch Payme, does well enough so the Donks get into a bidding war with the Texans over his services, then one season later the Texans pay the Browns to pick up his hideous contract.

Well that's why I said Keenum could be in a better situation. There's potential and there's reality, sometimes it doesn't translate. By the way I never thought Keenum would be a long term solution for any franchise. But Foles looked like the real thing for me when he got his first starts for the Eagles.

Regarding the Osweiller situation, I know it's in hindsight but I think it was definitely the wrong move for him to get the Texans job not being a fully grown NFL QB yet. He got butt hurt because he got benched for Manning's corpse in the playoffs the year before and decided to leave, but if he had stayed, we don't know, I definitely think he and the Broncos would have done better than last year.

 

[maineman209]

Under very poor programs we should note. With decent coaching and timing he could very well be in a Kirk Cousins situation right now.

That kid Foles is also another QB that was wasted due to poor coaching and GMing.

This is a situation that goes unnoticed most of the time. Jimmy G now is on the verge of making millions and there will be a dispute for his services. He could very well be toasted by now if drafted by a crap franchise.

Seems highly unlikely to me that Brady wold be the GOAT if he'd been drafted by the Lions.

 

[Real World]

Not so fond memories about Chad Jackson come to mind.
We traded up for him something like a dozen spots in Round 2.
I was at camp during his preseasons. Brady absolutely had no use for the muscle bound moron. He's stop the play, waive Jackson over to a different spot and rarely threw to him. BB would then pull Chad out of the Brady 11. It's not like we were deep at WR either.
It's a rare high draft pick that you can go to camp and conclude after a couple weeks that he's an absolute bust but chad was the one.
In contrast, the early weeks at camp let anyone know that The Twig was gonna be a star.

The worst part about that move to trade up for Jackson, is that the Packers took Greg Jennings with the Patriots original pick in that round. IIRC. Oh well.

 

[Real World]

I want to see more of Carr. I'm not sure he makes the 53, but if he slips through waivers, I'd imagine he's a safe bet for the PS. I'm stating the obvious here, but he seems to fit that slot receiver mold the Patriots have had success with over the years, albeit with a taller frame.

Film Review: Patriots rookie WR Austin Carr makes case for audition with the starters

Carr flashed impressive quickness in his breaks and an ability to pluck the ball out of the air. While Carr was a combine snub, he ran a 6.70s three cone drill and 4.07s shuttle drill at his Pro Day and would have joined Houston CB Howard Wilson, Washington CB Kevin King, and Michigan WR Jehu Chesson as the only players at the combine to reach those agility numbers.

 

[zydecochris]

The question is Did he look so slow in college?

If so, then, yes, it is a failure of the scouting team.

If not, then it raises the question of what happened to slow him down.

Thank you for making sense.

Cyrus Jone's straight line speed is very good (4.49 40, compared to 4.56 for Logan Ryan and Dion Lewis), but not elite. However, his quickness in college was really excellent, on many of his punt returns it looked like the other players were moving in slow motion.

You posed exactly the right question, what happened to slow him down? My theory is that he isn't moving instinctively because he is trying to learn how to move and play the game the Patriot way, and he's having trouble translating the coaching to how he moves on the field. I think he IS trying hard to accept the coaching, otherwise BB wouldn't keep trotting him out there on punts returns when everyone on this forum is screaming to bench him. And, it isn't like hard coaching was a problem in the past, Alabama's Nick Saban is notoriously hard on DB's more than any other position, and Saban loved him.

Is there the possibility that Jones just can't learn to move fluidly the way the Patriots want him to? It looks that way, he's certainly had more trouble so far than I expected. We'll just have to see if the light comes on for him and he can combine his natural moves and quickness with the way the Patriots want him to move and play.