Austin Carr and Jacob Hollister

[kennyb]

Hard to know if that's meant in humor. Almost anyone can return kicks and jones fumbled what, 6x last year? Yeah, a horrible cb but he, he's also a fumbling stumbling kick returner. Huge position of need there.

He should be cut asap out of general principle of fairness. Demoralizing having udfas play well and then have them lose playing time to a teacher's pet 2nd round pick.

He is one of the biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league.

 

[WaterfallJumper]

He is one of the biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Short a cb and safety who cannot play and are an embarrassment to the team is addition by subtraction.

You replace them with another CB, safety, or coverage linebacker. Some of whom may not be on the team right now. You don't use that to add a 6th WR or a 4th TE unless their offensive strategy for the year specifically requires that.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Hard to know if that's meant in humor. Almost anyone can return kicks and jones fumbled what, 6x last year? Yeah, a horrible cb but he, he's also a fumbling stumbling kick returner. Huge position of need there.

He should be cut asap out of general principle of fairness. Demoralizing having udfas play well and then have them lose playing time to a teacher's pet 2nd round pick.

He is one of the biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league.

I was never a Jones fan & didn't like the pick but this is a bit much.

I'd really like to see what Likely can do and hope he gets a shot back there returning kicks.

Super competitive and twitched up. Built for slot. Very nice lateral quicks to stay with those water bugs.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

You replace them with another CB, safety, or coverage linebacker. Some of whom may not be on the team right now. You don't use that to add a 6th WR or a 4th TE unless their offensive strategy for the year specifically requires that.

And how did the Pats end up with EIGHT safeties on the 53 in 2015?

 

[Hammer of Thor]

And how did the Pats end up with EIGHT safeties on the 53 in 2015?

Most were special teams guys, safety in name only (Ebner, King, Tavon Wilson). Role was special teams, not safety.

 

[PatsWickedPissah]

Hard to know if that's meant in humor. Almost anyone can return kicks and jones fumbled what, 6x last year? Yeah, a horrible cb but he, he's also a fumbling stumbling kick returner. Huge position of need there.

He should be cut asap out of general principle of fairness. Demoralizing having udfas play well and then have them lose playing time to a teacher's pet 2nd round pick.

He is one of the biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league.

Not so fond memories about Chad Jackson come to mind.
We traded up for him something like a dozen spots in Round 2.
I was at camp during his preseasons. Brady absolutely had no use for the muscle bound moron. He's stop the play, waive Jackson over to a different spot and rarely threw to him. BB would then pull Chad out of the Brady 11. It's not like we were deep at WR either.
It's a rare high draft pick that you can go to camp and conclude after a couple weeks that he's an absolute bust but chad was the one.
In contrast, the early weeks at camp let anyone know that The Twig was gonna be a star.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Most were special teams guys, safety in name only (Ebner, King, Tavon Wilson). Role was special teams, not safety.

Doesn't really change my point. One player lost, replacement at another position.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

Doesn't really change my point. One player lost, replacement at another position.

It completely changes the point. The position was special teams. Replaced with special teams. If Matthew Slater went on IR and they chose to keep a new special teams only CB because of it, does that mean they replaced a WR with a CB? I don't think so.

 

[maineman209]

Doesn't really change my point. One player lost, replacement at another position.

In 2016, at safety, the Pats had McCourty, Chung and Harmon. No, Harmon was NOT a sub/relief man for either McCourty or Chung, he was the "nickel safety", coming on in addition to the other two.

Behind those three, they had Richards, Ebner and King - all of them high-value special teamers and, supposedly, injury backups for the "starting" trio. IMHO, the Pats were lucky not to have any injuries at safety.

Sure, you can just arbitrarily dump Richards, but you still have to replace him with someone else who could be a legitimate injury replacement for one of the starters, because it sure ain't gonna be Ebner or King. Your choices then are UDFA rookies Thompson, Travis or David Jones. Do we know for a fact that any of them are "better" than Richards?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

At DE, in 2016, the Pats had Flowers, Long, Sheard and Nink. They have only Flowers left from that group. They've added Guy (more of a 3-4 DE/4-3 DT hybrid), Rivers (a rookie DE/OLB hybrid - probably) and Wise (a rookie). Ealy and Grissom are the only other DEs on the roster with NFL experience, and Grissom was exclusively a special teamer in 2016 (though a high-value one). After Ealy and Grissom, you have only two UDFA rookies: Kidder and the just-arrived Keionta Davis.

Arbitrarily cut Ealy to keep Carr, and your potential injury replacements are a special-teamer OR a UDFA rookie. Beyond that, you're counting on significant contributions from some of the LBs, including Hightower, McLellin, Rivers and (possibly) Langi. And what does that do to the LB scheme?

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In 2016, the Pats had Butler, Ryan, Rowe, and Coleman who all played significant defensive snaps (though Coleman ultimatey lost his "nickel corner" job to Rowe). Behind them, they had Cy Jones and Jon Jones. Of the three "backups", Jon Jones played the fewest defensive snaps by far (only 64) and the most ST snaps by a factor of 5+ (307 to 51 and 65).

The Pats replaced Ryan with Gilmore. Coleman, though pretty clearly limited, has significant game experience (but virtually zero ST value). Jon Jones may or may not have progressed beyond Coleman's level (in the eyes of the coaches).

Hypothetically, you could maybe get away with cutting Cy Jones and replacing him with Carr instead of, say, Moore, but that's still risky.

 

[luuked]

It completely changes the point. The position was special teams. Replaced with special teams. If Matthew Slater went on IR and they chose to keep a new special teams only CB because of it, does that mean they replaced a WR with a CB? I don't think so.

Just wait how people will freak out when Bolden gets a spot on the 53 for Slater who will go on IR* until he recovers.

 

[mgteich]

Just wait how people will freak out when Bolden gets a spot on the 53 for Slater who will go on IR* until he recovers.

I agree.

I do indeed believe that if Slater goes on IR, his roster spot will be taken by a STer. Bolden and Freeny come to mind.

 

[Ross12]

Chris Harper was my binky but even I think Carr looked better in his first game than Harper did in the preseason here. Cautiously optimistic on Carr.

 

[luuked]

Chris Harper was my binky but even I think Carr looked better in his first game than Harper did in the preseason here. Cautiously optimistic on Carr.

My issue with Carr is that he is not anywhere close to having the necessary leg strength for NFL level slot receiver in & out cuts. Similarly, he also doesn't show much separation. If we can keep him on the practice squad and he works on those fundamentals in the same manner as Edelman did he might be an option in 1-2 years.

Similar to Hollister the question is who would you take out from Cooks, Edelman, Dola, Hogan, Mitchell, Gronk & Allen to give any of the two a snap ? I see more value with additional rotational pieces on the defense than that.

 

[ashley]

Carr plays at a loaded position, not sure he will be able to make the team unless there is an injury and I'm not sure if we will carry 6 wr's.

 

[Mack Herron]

Carr plays at a loaded position, not sure he will be able to make the team unless there is an injury and I'm not sure if we will carry 6 wr's.

Carr has an uphill fight but I wouldn't rule anything out just yet. In making the final cuts, BB will base his decision not only on current players but also on the future. In 2 years Cook (sayonara), Edelman and Amendola will likely contribute little if at all. If he thinks Carr's got a future in the league, he needs to consider all the end of the roster options and the likelihood that each of them could make it to the practice squad. Lots of unknowns there.

 

[Tony2046]

My issue with Carr is that he is not anywhere close to having the necessary leg strength for NFL level slot receiver in & out cuts. Similarly, he also doesn't show much separation. If we can keep him on the practice squad and he works on those fundamentals in the same manner as Edelman did he might be an option in 1-2 years.

Similar to Hollister the question is who would you take out from Cooks, Edelman, Dola, Hogan, Mitchell, Gronk & Allen to give any of the two a snap ? I see more value with additional rotational pieces on the defense than that.

Just curious. Where are you seeing the lack of separation? I've watched the game twice and haven't seen it. Granted most of the game he was playing against zone but even the few times in man he was open.

Second question would be how much leg strength did he have jumping for that TD? That had to be three feet plus. Or am I thinking of leg strength in the wrong way?

Side note: Carr's excellent performance was still against 2nd string CB's so I'm not sure what he'll look like against starting lineups. Hopefully the next couple of games will show us more.

 

[bormio]

Carr will get reps against the 1's in practice now - they did that with Edelman when he showed as a rookie. Of course Monday is the last open practice.

 

[luuked]

Just curious. Where are you seeing the lack of separation? I've watched the game twice and haven't seen it. Granted most of the game he was playing against zone but even the few times in man he was open.

Second question would be how much leg strength did he have jumping for that TD? That had to be three feet plus. Or am I thinking of leg strength in the wrong way?

Side note: Carr's excellent performance was still against 2nd string CB's so I'm not sure what he'll look like against starting lineups. Hopefully the next couple of games will show us more.

I am basing most of that on reports from practice and camp and not on the preseason game against the Jaguars. Given how most teams play their second and third stringers I don't see too much value in that game.

 

[patchick]

He is one of the biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league.

Do you follow the draft much? Ever look at what happens to other teams' draft picks?

As bad a pick as Cyrus looks like at this point, he has no chance of making any list of "biggest 2nd round busts in the history of the league." I mean, a player picked above Cyrus has already been cut. Then there are guys like Sergio Kindle, Baltimore's #43 overall pick who logged one career tackle.

The success rate of picks at the end of round 2 like Jones is well below 50%. That's just how the draft works.