After today... This looks like a 9-7 team as of today..

[Ring 6]

Re: After today... Still a 9-7 team..

How can you say that any of those guys that I named are any less likely to start on the Pats than McCourty? Odrick will be ready to start as a rookie, thats why the Dolphins drafted him. What makes you say Hughes doesnt fit our system well?, guys can adjust. These guys have never played in the NFL this would be the time for them to adjust their styles. Bryant was definitely a top 5 talent, you can deny that. Teams passed on him because they didnt want to pick a guy with that much baggage, thats probably why the Pats passed on him as well. I dont really have an issue with that though I would still had been satisfied with Odrick or Hughes. Bryant did play in 3 games last season, so it wouldnt be a year and a half, a non issue IMO.

What is it that you like so much about Hughes?
You knock McCourty for being in the Big East, but expect the Mountain West player to be able to start?
He is descrived as a one gap player. His weakness is shedding blockers and playing run D.
He had 11 1/2 sacks in 2009 in 13 games, but 5 came against Texas St and Colorado St. that leaves 6 1/2 in 11 games against still extremely questionable competition.
How is that guy going to jump all the way to starting in the NFL, play a position that values the areas he is weakest in, and learn a new position in the most complex D in the NFL, and flourish as a rookie?

 

[patfanken]

I think it is CLEAR that McCourty will be the #2 CB next season. He is more physical than either Wilhite, or Butler, both of whom are much better suited to cover slot receivers. Not that being the nickel back is a demotion. In today's NFL the slot DB is just as important as any starter. I think the fact is that McCourty has a better skill set and body to play the outside, just as I think, Butler has a better skill set to play in the slot.

In the pass happy NFL it is critical to have top DBs covering the slot receiver, anything else and you'll never get off the field. Safeties (by and large) and LBs can't do the job, neither can JAG CBs. In the NFL today, one of your TOP DBs has to be available to do that job.

Why do you think the Jets ignored their own DL/pass rushing needs to draft Wilson. They know that in order to stop the best offenses in the league (Colts, Pats, NO, etc) you HAVE to have stop the 3 wide formation. You need in essence, 3 starting CBs, The Pats now have that....unfortunately so do the Jets.

 

[Bostonian1962]

Re: After today... Still a 9-7 team..

Dude, Butler started FIVE games. It is wrong to say he took over the job in the middle of the season.
He started weeks 6,9,12,13 and 17

He was 'benched' from 14-16 after his only back to back starts.
Wilhite started 8 games including 10,11,12 and 17.

Wilhite played 580 snaps, Butler 525, and Springs who is 36 played 525 too.

So our corners last year were
1 Bodden
2 Wilhite
3/4 Butler/Springs
5 Wheatley

You dont think a first round caliber player can crack that lineup?

Don't go all revisionist history and act like we alreaqdy have a #2 corner because the guy you think is # 2 played tied for the 3rd and 4th most snaps, started only 5 times, including only 1 of the final 4 games. That isn't the definition of someone who started slow, learned and progressed and now is locking down the job.

By the way Springs started each of the last 4 regular season games and the playoff game, so it may be the 35 year old corner that we drafted a player to take a starting job from.

AJ is right! I posted prior to the draft my two favorite CBs in the Draft Section, and McCourty was number one. I'm only saying that so folks don't think I'm spinning positive after the fact. This guy is an out of this world athlete. He's got unbelievably fluid hips. He can leap, and has really good timing. He is a top notch tackler for a CB.

I don't know why the ints. weren't there in college, but would not be surprised if they just stayed away from his side. He was consistant and durable, vocal on-field leader and the overall leader of the Rutgers team in 2009.

OURLADs does a cool thing in their guide this year, where they rate the drills that have the most to do with that particular position. It gives the players a grade at that position. There were 29 CBs at the combine. They'll tell you how each player did overall. McCourty was 4th out of the 29 CBs there. By comparison, Joe Haden was 19th out of 29, and Kareem Jackson was 11th out of 29. Kyle Wilson did not work out.

McCourty was the single best special team player in the draft, even playing the gunner position in college. He blocked 7 kicks in college, and returned a kickoff for a TD.

I for one think he could very much factor into the mix at CB, if not start.

Anybody who doesn't think we needed to add a CB didn't watch the same games I was watching last year. We did, and it sure appears like we added a good one.

P.S. - I'm still hoping that Butler really blossoms in year two, but there is nothing wrong with having more than one top notch CB out there.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: After today... Still a 9-7 team..

Odrick is ready to start because the Dolphins need him to start on their DL. Thats why if the Pats drafted Hughes, we would step in and most likely start at OLB. Thats what I meant when I wanted the 1st round pick to be a starter. Where are the Pats going to get a starter at OLB? Cunningham isnt ready. Where are they going to get a starter at DE? You are really telling me that Odrick wouldnt beat out Wright, Lewis, Warren and Pryor. Come on, those guys arent starters they are quality back ups. Springs, Wilhite, Butler and Wheatley are a lot stronger than the guys you named at DE.

So you want to draft a position regardless of the player and if you can rattle of terrible players at the position it isnt a need?
Cunningham is arguably more ready than Hughes, and by far a better fit in our system.
I am absolutely telling you that Odrick wouldn't beat out those guys. 3 of them were NFL starters last year.

If you think that Wheatley, Wilhite and Springs are better football playes than Wright, Lewis, Warren and Pryor why are we even talking?

 

[Patspsycho]

In the pass happy NFL it is critical to have top DBs covering the slot receiver, anything else and you'll never get off the field. Safeties (by and large) and LBs can't do the job, neither can JAG CBs. In the NFL today, one of your TOP DBs has to be available to do that job.

Why do you think the Jets ignored their own DL/pass rushing needs to draft Wilson. They know that in order to stop the best offenses in the league (Colts, Pats, NO, etc) you HAVE to have stop the 3 wide formation. You need in essence, 3 starting CBs, The Pats now have that....unfortunately so do the Jets.

This is precisely why I am high on Hernandez.

I guarantee you, the Jets will not game-plan for him.

 

[Deus Irae]

I think it is CLEAR that McCourty will be the #2 CB next season. He is more physical than either Wilhite, or Butler, both of whom are much better suited to cover slot receivers. Not that being the nickel back is a demotion. In today's NFL the slot DB is just as important as any starter. I think the fact is that McCourty has a better skill set and body to play the outside, just as I think, Butler has a better skill set to play in the slot.

In the pass happy NFL it is critical to have top DBs covering the slot receiver, anything else and you'll never get off the field. Safeties (by and large) and LBs can't do the job, neither can JAG CBs. In the NFL today, one of your TOP DBs has to be available to do that job.

Why do you think the Jets ignored their own DL/pass rushing needs to draft Wilson. They know that in order to stop the best offenses in the league (Colts, Pats, NO, etc) you HAVE to have stop the 3 wide formation. You need in essence, 3 starting CBs, The Pats now have that....unfortunately so do the Jets.

I expect Bodden and Butler to be the opening day starters.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: After today... Still a 9-7 team..

How can you say that any of those guys that I named are any less likely to start on the Pats than McCourty? Odrick will be ready to start as a rookie, thats why the Dolphins drafted him. What makes you say Hughes doesnt fit our system well?, guys can adjust. These guys have never played in the NFL this would be the time for them to adjust their styles. Bryant was definitely a top 5 talent, you can deny that. Teams passed on him because they didnt want to pick a guy with that much baggage, thats probably why the Pats passed on him as well. I dont really have an issue with that though I would still had been satisfied with Odrick or Hughes. Bryant did play in 3 games last season, so it wouldnt be a year and a half, a non issue IMO.

That is completely wrong. There are plenty of guys including superstars in this league who can play at a high level in one system and would play like crap in another. Although the Colts don't play a pure Tampa 2 anymore, their defense still relies on the same type of player - small, fast guys with high motors and neverending pursuit, but read and react abilities and discipline (in terms of doing a specific role and not freelancing) are not a priority. The Pats' needs on defense for the front seven is the exact opposite. The Pats usually want bigger guys who might not be the fastest guys out there, but have great read and react abilities and won't freelance. Hughes is a great fit for the Colts, but not for the Patriots. If he was to go to a 3-4 team, he would have fit far better in a blitz happy one gap system like the Chargers or Ravens or Jets.

As for Bryant, he does have top 5 talent, but reports are he has a 10 cent head (and not just his off the field problems). Word was that they had to dumb down the playbook for him in college and we have seen with plenty of guys the Pats' playbook is very complicated (see Joey Galloway, Chad Jackson, Doug Gabriel, etc.).

I contend that both Bryant and Hughes could end up becoming huge superstars with their respective teams, but if the Pats drafted them that the results may not have been remotely the same. Neither were great fits for the Pats because Bryant seems too dumb and Hughes is too small.

It is a proven fact that even very productive players cannot just be plugged into any system (see Adalius Thomas here or most of the guys the Pats have allowed to leave here and turned into busts/disapointments on their next team). Some can, most cannot play in any system.

I look at Brandon Spikes and I think he is a perfect fit for the Pats. He is big, smart, tough, a great tackler, and great at run defense. I think if the Colts drafted him, he would be cut within two years. He is far too big and slow to fit into their system and could never be successful in a 4-3 defense which asked him to go sideline-to-sideline. The sky is the limit for him with the Pats, but he would be doomed to be a bust if the a team like the Colts drafted him. He could fail with the Pats, but at least he has a fighting chance to be a star with them.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: After today... Still a 9-7 team..

I really dont think McCourty can be any higher than our #3 corner, probably #4. He has talent, but he also has some flaws. These flaws will be worked on this season and he will most likely be ready to start in 2011 or 2012. There isnt anything wrong with that. I think he has a tremendous upside and could potentially be a very good corner in the league.

It can be argued that Butler didnt start down the stretch because BB wanted a veteran starting in those games, and also look at the opponents weeks 14, 15 and 16. Panthers, Bills, Jaguars. They arent very pass dominant. Against the Texans a very pass dominant team Butler did start.

Specifically what flaws does MCcourty A FIRST ROUND TALENT have that will put him behind:
A 35 year old corner
Wilhite, who played because we had no one else
Wheatley who didnt play even when we had no one else
and Butler who didnt earn the job over those guys?
You have now determined that Butler is a dead lock cinch to beat out McCourty after stating 5 times. What is so much better about Butler than MCcourty? What are all those flaws that he doesnt have.
You also say he will probably be 4th?????? Which of those stable of awful corners have less flaws?

Are you seriosly kidding me that your excuse for why Butler couldnt earn a job was that we dont need our best corners to play against some competition?

What is your excuse for Wilhite playing more snaps? For Springs playing as many?

You are just graslping at straws.

Clearly you didnt want to like the pick, so you have created a reason, and then when all of your arguments are torn away you replace them with weaker ones.

 

[Ring 6]

I think it is CLEAR that McCourty will be the #2 CB next season. He is more physical than either Wilhite, or Butler, both of whom are much better suited to cover slot receivers. Not that being the nickel back is a demotion. In today's NFL the slot DB is just as important as any starter. I think the fact is that McCourty has a better skill set and body to play the outside, just as I think, Butler has a better skill set to play in the slot.

In the pass happy NFL it is critical to have top DBs covering the slot receiver, anything else and you'll never get off the field. Safeties (by and large) and LBs can't do the job, neither can JAG CBs. In the NFL today, one of your TOP DBs has to be available to do that job.

Why do you think the Jets ignored their own DL/pass rushing needs to draft Wilson. They know that in order to stop the best offenses in the league (Colts, Pats, NO, etc) you HAVE to have stop the 3 wide formation. You need in essence, 3 starting CBs, The Pats now have that....unfortunately so do the Jets.

The only reason MCcourty wouldn't start is inexperience, but to say he is anything less than #3, which is a starter in my book is ludicrous.
To put it another way, he is our #1 corner at some point, because he is the most talented and well rounded cornerback we have, and he will start in the #3 slot and work his way to #1. All that is tbd is the timeline.

 

[Rob0729]

I think it is CLEAR that McCourty will be the #2 CB next season. He is more physical than either Wilhite, or Butler, both of whom are much better suited to cover slot receivers. Not that being the nickel back is a demotion. In today's NFL the slot DB is just as important as any starter. I think the fact is that McCourty has a better skill set and body to play the outside, just as I think, Butler has a better skill set to play in the slot.

In the pass happy NFL it is critical to have top DBs covering the slot receiver, anything else and you'll never get off the field. Safeties (by and large) and LBs can't do the job, neither can JAG CBs. In the NFL today, one of your TOP DBs has to be available to do that job.

Why do you think the Jets ignored their own DL/pass rushing needs to draft Wilson. They know that in order to stop the best offenses in the league (Colts, Pats, NO, etc) you HAVE to have stop the 3 wide formation. You need in essence, 3 starting CBs, The Pats now have that....unfortunately so do the Jets.

I think Butler and Bodden will start the year as a starters. No rookie is given the starting job. They have to earn it. The only rookies I remember starting from day one were Light, Seymour (when he returned from an injury), and Mayo. Light started out of lack of options. Seymour and Mayo were top 10 picks.

I really don't know much about McCourty than what I read, but if some of the stuff that I read is true, he could definitely be the starter and the Pats' LCB by the end of the year. The Pats really don't have #1 and #2 CB, but left and right and the left usually sees the featured receiver. The question is if McCorty reaches his potential (and Belichick feels that is in the Revis range), do the Pats abandon the left and right CB scheme and put McCourty on the best WR fulltime like he used to do with Law. But I guess I am getting way ahead of myself.

 

[Rob0729]

Re: After today... Still a 9-7 team..

I really dont think McCourty can be any higher than our #3 corner, probably #4. He has talent, but he also has some flaws. These flaws will be worked on this season and he will most likely be ready to start in 2011 or 2012. There isnt anything wrong with that. I think he has a tremendous upside and could potentially be a very good corner in the league.

It can be argued that Butler didnt start down the stretch because BB wanted a veteran starting in those games, and also look at the opponents weeks 14, 15 and 16. Panthers, Bills, Jaguars. They arent very pass dominant. Against the Texans a very pass dominant team Butler did start.

Yeah, but you said Friday night that you heard that McCourty gave up a lot of passes in college when the numbers clearly show he was a shutdown CB (or close to it) in college. So I don't know if your evaluation of McCourty is really based on true analysis of the guy or bad info.

 

[Patspsycho]

I think Butler and Bodden will start the year as a starters. No rookie is given the starting job. They have to earn it. The only rookies I remember starting from day one were Light, Seymour (when he returned from an injury), and Mayo. Light started out of lack of options. Seymour and Mayo were top 10 picks.

I really don't know much about McCourty than what I read, but if some of the stuff that I read is true, he could definitely be the starter and the Pats' LCB by the end of the year. The Pats really don't have #1 and #2 CB, but left and right and the left usually sees the featured receiver. The question is if McCorty reaches his potential (and Belichick feels that is in the Revis range), do the Pats abandon the left and right CB scheme and put McCourty on the best WR fulltime like he used to do with Law. But I guess I am getting way ahead of myself.

I think we will see more games this year start in the nickel and in that regard, McCourty starts.

 

[Rob0729]

I think we will see more games this year start in the nickel and in that regard, McCourty starts.

Well, it will depend on the team they face, but the nickel package is far more used in today's NFL than it was five years apo. With a few exceptions, most teams rely on the pass more than the run these days. There were more QBs last year that passed for over 4,000 yards (10 QBs) than RBs who rushed for over 1,200 yards (8 RBs).

I doubt the Pats will start with the nickel just because first down is typically a running down and usually you have a run defense on that down.

 

[Ring 6]

Well, it will depend on the team they face, but the nickel package is far more used in today's NFL than it was five years apo. With a few exceptions, most teams rely on the pass more than the run these days. There were more QBs last year that passed for over 4,000 yards (10 QBs) than RBs who rushed for over 1,200 yards (8 RBs).

I doubt the Pats will start with the nickel just because first down is typically a running down and usually you have a run defense on that down.

And our system is predicated on stopping the first down run in order to be able to better defend the 2nd and 3rd down passes.
Hell, our most basic defensive princple says we sacrifice pass rushing in order to play 2gap run D, so everything evolves from there.
However, against some teams, particularly Indy, we play nickel as the base and 2gap from it on run/pass downs like 1st and 10.

 

[JoeSixPat]

I see many posters saying "well they were almost a 12 win team last year" - but #1 - they WEREN'T and #2 - what does last year's schedule have to do with this years??

They have to play THIS YEAR'S schedule - against THIS YEARS opposition.

You might not agree with Sean Pats prediction, but the reality is that we've got a killer schedule next season, and no one would suggest the Jets and Miami have gotten worse... even the biggest Patriot Homer would agree they've improved.

So I've got news - 6-0 in the Division is not a slam dunk.

3-3 is a very realistic possibility - and that's not a knock against the Patriots.

Nor is it High Treason to suggest that their zig zagging country tour as they play Baltimore, go to San Diego, and come home to play the Vikings is 3 automatic wins.

I would be FAR from shocked if they wound up splitting their division games and found themselves on the losing end of as many as 4 games against the Ravens, Colts, Steelers, Chargers. Vikings and Bengals.

That's a very feasible 7 losses for anyone counting and assumes they win all other games including visiting Detroit on 3 days rest. I'm not predicting that, but I wouldn't be shocked if we saw it, nor would I flame Sean Pats for suggesting the notion that we have a killer schedule and our Division is improved.

 

[Deus Irae]

I see many posters saying "well they were almost a 12 win team last year" - but #1 - they WEREN'T and #2 - what does last year's schedule have to do with this years??

They have to play THIS YEAR'S schedule - against THIS YEARS opposition.

You might not agree with Sean Pats prediction, but the reality is that we've got a killer schedule next season, and no one would suggest the Jets and Miami have gotten worse... even the biggest Patriot Homer would agree they've improved.

So I've got news - 6-0 in the Division is not a slam dunk.

3-3 is a very realistic possibility - and that's not a knock against the Patriots.

Nor is it High Treason to suggest that their zig zagging country tour as they play Baltimore, go to San Diego, and come home to play the Vikings is 3 automatic wins.

I would be FAR from shocked if they wound up splitting their division games and found themselves on the losing end of as many as 4 games against the Ravens, Colts, Steelers, Chargers. Vikings and Bengals.

That's a very feasible 7 losses for anyone counting. I'm not predicting that, but I wouldn't be shocked if we saw it, nor would I flame Sean Pats for suggesting the notion that we have a killer schedule and our Division is improved.

The Patriots have improved by 1000%.

All other teams have regressed and become the equivalent of the 2008 Lions.


Now that you understand the rules, carry on.

 

[Triumph]

The only reason MCcourty wouldn't start is inexperience, but to say he is anything less than #3, which is a starter in my book is ludicrous.
To put it another way, he is our #1 corner at some point, because he is the most talented and well rounded cornerback we have, and he will start in the #3 slot and work his way to #1. All that is tbd is the timeline.

Rutgers runs a NE defense with their own twist.

I hope either McCourty or Butler can step up at # 2 CB.

 

[The Dynasty]

Re: After today... Still a 9-7 team..

So you want to draft a position regardless of the player and if you can rattle of terrible players at the position it isnt a need?
Cunningham is arguably more ready than Hughes, and by far a better fit in our system.
I am absolutely telling you that Odrick wouldn't beat out those guys. 3 of them were NFL starters last year.

If you think that Wheatley, Wilhite and Springs are better football playes than Wright, Lewis, Warren and Pryor why are we even talking?

Mike Wright- 9 starts (primarily because of injuries)
Damione Lewis- 16 starts (on the Panthers), you really think he would have started on the Pats?
Gerard Warren- 16 starts, on the Raiders. Enough said.
Myron Pryor- 0 starts

These guys arent NFL starters, the Panthers and the Raiders were terrible and needed guys to start, they probably wouldnt have started on any other team. I am very confident Odrick is better than any of the 4 that you named. Springs and Butler are certainly better than all of those guys and maybe Wheatley. Odrick would have a much better chance of starting on this team than McCourty would.

 

[Patspsycho]

Well, it will depend on the team they face, but the nickel package is far more used in today's NFL than it was five years apo. With a few exceptions, most teams rely on the pass more than the run these days. There were more QBs last year that passed for over 4,000 yards (10 QBs) than RBs who rushed for over 1,200 yards (8 RBs).

I doubt the Pats will start with the nickel just because first down is typically a running down and usually you have a run defense on that down.

I am saying this with this year's schedule in mind.

 

[Ring 6]

Re: After today... Still a 9-7 team..

Mike Wright- 9 starts (primarily because of injuries)
Damione Lewis- 16 starts (on the Panthers), you really think he would have started on the Pats?
Gerard Warren- 16 starts, on the Raiders. Enough said.
Myron Pryor- 0 starts

These guys arent NFL starters, the Panthers and the Raiders were terrible and needed guys to start, they probably wouldnt have started on any other team. I am very confident Odrick is better than any of the 4 that you named. Springs and Butler are certainly better than all of those guys and maybe Wheatley. Odrick would have a much better chance of starting on this team than McCourty would.

Primarily because of injury?????????
16 starts = starter
Wouldnt start on any other team= bs you made up

Wheatley is better than who? Who couldnt even get active on game day last year when we had injuries.

Now you are just making things up.