A Judon Restructure

[mgteich]

Pushing forward cap limits flexibility. It makes for less incentive for extensions, and more likely the team has to keep a player they might not want.

I disagree with all three statements.

To repeat the very obvious, pushing $6M of Judon's 2022 salary into 2023 and 2024 for cap purposes increases flexibility, has no effect on signing extensions, and does NOT make it more likely that we keep Judon.

 

[mgteich]

I think that little has changed from the time Miguel made this assessment 4 months ago. The issue, then and now, is how to pay for the $10M that will be needed in late camp and during the season.

Cap insider predicts Patriots will make these 3 offseason moves

Miguel Benzan said the New England Patriots should convert Matt Judon's salary and extend both Hunter Henry and Jake Bailey.

musketfire.com

 

[Wozzy]

I'm not sure what you are saying. The cap hit next year is 9 million if cut next year and 4.5 million in 2024.

Matt Judon | NFL | Spotrac.com

Matt Judon contract and salary cap details, full contract breakdowns, salaries, signing bonus, roster bonus, dead money, and valuations.

www.spotrac.com

No matter. Pushing forward cap limits flexibility. It makes for less incentive for extensions, and more likely the team has to keep a player they might not want.

Agreed, I don’t want them to hamstring themselves going forward. They’ll have the most cap space in the league next year, the cap is going to skyrocket with a new TV and gambling deal, and they have all their draft picks and compensatory picks… they’re flush with resources.

Use 2022 to determine who your building blocks are going forward and build a superteam in 2023. They should be able to compete for a ring if all things go perfectly in 2022 and absolutely will in 2023. Rebuild complete.

 

[Wozzy]

I disagree with all three statements.

To repeat the very obvious, pushing $6M of Judon's 2022 salary into 2023 and 2024 for cap purposes increases flexibility, has no effect on signing extensions, and does NOT make it more likely that we keep Judon.

Pushing cap debt into the future lowers their cap ceiling in the future… that’s not debateable.

 

[venecol]

I think that little has changed from the time Miguel made this assessment 4 months ago. The issue, then and now, is how to pay for the $10M that will be needed in late camp and during the season.

Cap insider predicts Patriots will make these 3 offseason moves

Miguel Benzan said the New England Patriots should convert Matt Judon's salary and extend both Hunter Henry and Jake Bailey.

musketfire.com

Little has changed in last 4 months? These things happened in last 4 months:

1. Early March: FAcy opens;
2. Late March: Kraft makes statements in Palm Beach;
3. Early April: middle FAcy moves;
4. Late April: draft;
5. May: post-draft FAcy;
6. June 2nd: key date in FAcy.

Throughout the last 4 months the moves made by the Patriots have been clear, consistent & in line w/ Kraft's statement: no pushing $ to future seasons.

You just refuse to listen or maybe think you know something no one else knows. The people have spoken. Your poll is 2-10 on restructure. Give it up man.

 

[mgteich]

Little has changed in last 4 months? These things happened in last 4 months:

1. Early March: FAcy opens;
2. Late March: Kraft makes statements in Palm Beach;
3. Early April: middle FAcy moves;
4. Late April: draft;
5. May: post-draft FAcy;
6. June 2nd: key date in FAcy.

Throughout the last 4 months the moves made by the Patriots have been clear, consistent & in line w/ Kraft's statement: no pushing $ to future seasons.

You just refuse to listen or maybe think you know something no one else knows. The people have spoken. Your poll is 2-10 on restructure. Give it up man.

I read the poll results. I read what Miguel has said on needing $10M and where we are likely to get it.

Now, we will wait and see.

I've had minority opinions before.

 

[mgteich]

I'm not sure what you are saying. The cap hit next year is 9 million if cut next year and 4.5 million in 2024.

Matt Judon | NFL | Spotrac.com

Matt Judon contract and salary cap details, full contract breakdowns, salaries, signing bonus, roster bonus, dead money, and valuations.

www.spotrac.com

No matter. Pushing forward cap limits flexibility. It makes for less incentive for extensions, and more likely the team has to keep a player they might not want.

I've made things too complicated.

QUESTIONS
1) If we trade Judon after this season, what is the cap savings?
2) If we restructure, moving $6M of 2022 salary into 2023 and 2024, and trade him after the season, what is the cap savings.

I believe that, magically, you will find that the cap savings is exactly the same.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

I don't think Judon is going ANYWHERE, HE CAN'T do it by himself, 1 more ManUp will be massive, I'm sure BILL has a plan.

 

[venecol]

I've made things too complicated.

QUESTIONS
1) If we trade Judon after this season, what is the cap savings?
2) If we restructure, moving $6M of 2022 salary into 2023 and 2024, and trade him after the season, what is the cap savings.

I believe that, magically, you will find that the cap savings is exactly the same.

Are you trading him pre- or post- June 1st? Things are more complicated than you make them sound.

 

[mgteich]

Are you trading him pre- or post- June 1st? Things are more complicated than you make them sound.

choose pre-June 1st to make it easier, but it makes no difference. The result is the same whether there is a restructure or not.

 

[Family]

I've made things too complicated.

QUESTIONS
1) If we trade Judon after this season, what is the cap savings?
2) If we restructure, moving $6M of 2022 salary into 2023 and 2024, and trade him after the season, what is the cap savings.

I believe that, magically, you will find that the cap savings is exactly the same.

OK, if you want to view the situation from that route, the restructure makes him less valuable for another team to trade for. Again, less flexibility in the future.

When you say restructuring increases flexibility, that is only for today. This year's added flexibility means less next year when deciding what to do with the player.

Every time you restructure, there is a counter result, except if you decide to keep the player for the remainder of the contract, which would only mean cap moving forward.

 

[Pape]

choose pre-June 1st to make it easier, but it makes no difference. The result is the same whether there is a restructure or not.

How can that be though? You are converting non guaranteed money to a signing bonus... By definition it has to increase the dead money on the cap because now bonus money is spread over two years, whereas there was none before...

If I have the part of cap economics wrong, please feel free to correct me

 

[Family]

How can that be though? You are converting non guaranteed money to a signing bonus... By definition it has to increase the dead money on the cap because now bonus money is spread over two years, whereas there was none before...

If I have the part of cap economics wrong, please feel free to correct me

It increases the dead cap, but also increases the actual cap, so the net cap savings is the same, even though the dead cap hit from the trade would be greater. I think.

You can play this game all day, but there is no way this type of restructure doesn't have consequences which could handcuff the team somewhat down the road.

 

[venecol]

How can that be though? You are converting non guaranteed money to a signing bonus... By definition it has to increase the dead money on the cap because now bonus money is spread over two years, whereas there was none before...

If I have the part of cap economics wrong, please feel free to correct me

In this case, all of Judon's base salary is already guaranteed, as is the case for Henry. Therefore, there's really no benefit to the player to agree to this.

This just pushes $6M to future cap years, making the cap hit for these players higher in those years (& increasing their dead $). This is done all the time, it just appears the Pats aren't willing to do it this season. There are other ways to free up $10M that doesn't require restructures.

I don't see it happening. It's more likely they obtain req. cap space with cuts/trades when they go from 87 to 53.

 

[Pape]

I don't see it happening.

Agreed... my original post in this thread said we shouldnt do anything with the deal... its fairly straight forward, has a limited cap hit in the final season...

 

[Wozzy]

Firstly they’re not trading Judon, why would they trade one of their best defenders and best OLB’s in the league… they wouldn’t unless he became a malcontent.

Secondly they have the money to pay him, they could easily rework his deal but don’t have to and he’s entering the tail end of his career. It makes more sense to pay down his debt now and rework some other players.

Their punter needs and deserves a long term deal, that’s an easy one.

They could extend Hunter Henry if they wanted to, he has shown up and gelled immediately, I’d be more hesitant here with his injury history but he is only signed through next season and will be 29 in 2023.

There are numerous other guys they can and will extend… like I said earlier, wait until camp and preseason. See which young players came to play and have taken their jobs seriously, who can be a building block player going forward and extend them before they perform on the field and get too expensive. There’s no rush.

 

[mgteich]

OK, if you want to view the situation from that route, the restructure makes him less valuable for another team to trade for. Again, less flexibility in the future.

When you say restructuring increases flexibility, that is only for today. This year's added flexibility means less next year when deciding what to do with the player.

Every time you restructure, there is a counter result, except if you decide to keep the player for the remainder of the contract, which would only mean cap moving forward.

OK, let's look at trade value after two years.

If a team trades for Judon, their contract is exactly the same whether there has been a restructure or not. The new team is NOT responsible for the amortized cap hit from the restructure.

 

[Family]

OK, let's look at trade value after two years.

If a team trades for Judon, their contract is exactly the same whether there has been a restructure or not. The new team is NOT responsible for the amortized cap hit from the restructure.

Good point. I haven't thought through all the details of salary cap.

But pushing cap into the future effects' flexibility moving forward if only for the reason Wozzy mentioned. You have less cap available to spend in future years.

So why do it if you don't have to?

 

[venecol]

Good point. I haven't thought through all the details of salary cap.

But pushing cap into the future effects' flexibility moving forward if only for the reason Wozzy mentioned. You have less cap available to spend in future years.

So why do it if you don't have to?

Not only that, but from the players perspective, they know players with large cap hits are more expendable, so why agree to increase your % of cap space next year when the $ to be restructured this year is already guaranteed. There's absolutely no benefit to the player of agreeing to this and a potential downside.

Now, if his base salary wasn't already guaranteed, then at least you're getting that salary guaranteed & paid up front in the form of a bonus. That's not the case for Judon or Henry.

 

[Hammer of Thor]

I've made things too complicated.

QUESTIONS
1) If we trade Judon after this season, what is the cap savings?
2) If we restructure, moving $6M of 2022 salary into 2023 and 2024, and trade him after the season, what is the cap savings.

I believe that, magically, you will find that the cap savings is exactly the same.

On the bolded, I just want to make sure you phrased that correctly. You’re saying paying his 2022 salary as a bonus now and move the cap hits into 2023 and 2024, correct? Not actually deferring his salaries to those years, as the player may have a lot of issues with that.

Regarding the 1st question, the team ultimately has to account for every penny they pay (minimal exceptions) and not what someone else pays. Under his current contract, after 2022 that $6m is all accounted for in 2022 and will not hit the future cap in 2023 or 2024. If he’s restructured into a bonus, the team accounted for $2m in 2022 of that bonus, while the remaining $4m will hit the 2023 and 2024 caps in some manner. It doesn’t sound like a lot, I agree, but the reason why we’re even having this conversation is because the team is just scraping by against the cap currently - those extra few million can make a difference.

The above response assumes the team plans on using that extra cap space in 2022 for another player, using around using the entire cap space available in 2022. If not, and they’re just restructuring for the sake of restructuring (I.e. Were $10m under the cap, now 14m under, and never spend it in 2022), then it will just carry forward until next year (increasing the 2023 cap) and you’re correct, the net cap impact is a wash under either approach.