8/15 - Thursday Pats/Titans Joint Session Thread

[Ring 6]

And likewise, if Gordon isn't reinstated there's nothing to discuss.

That's the whole point -- both of these guys are facing obstacles to getting on the field; Gordon's obstacles relate to reinstatement and ability to remain un-suspended, not health or production. Thomas' obstacles relate to health, and by extension of health, productivity.

I think Thomas is more likely to see the field sooner than Gordon, but I'm not convinced that he will ultimately be the better or more productive player should both end up playing.

And I'm also not convinced that Gordon is more likely than Thomas to stop playing, should they both return. While Gordon's history indicates he's been suspended often, that's not necessarily indicative of where he's at mentally/substance use wise right now. And on the other side of the coin, Thomas is older and coming off a major injury, so it's perfectly possible that he's unable to return to form or produce, or perhaps gets reinjured.

And let us not forget that Thomas was involved in a MVA while driving drunk. That seems to get skimmed over, but if we're concerned about Gordon's substance-use and reliability, certainly that has to be considered re: Thomas, too.

We will have to disagree. Gordon has not gone through a season without a suspension in how many years?
Thomas has been injured once.

I think that a person getting a dwi once is a little different than a person whose career is consistent run of repeated suspensions for substance abuse.
Any player can get injured, you assume that risk.
Are you honestly telling me if Gordon is reinstated tomorrow the risk of him but making through the season isn’t higher than every other player in the league?
I wish he had control of his demons but if you are honest about it you can’t expect anything but another suspension.

 

[mgteich]

IMO, a backup punt returner is not worth a roster spot.

JJ has never returned a kick of any kind at this level.

At this point, Berrios is the clear leader (aside from JE) on the punt return team.

 

[catent]

My point is that 31 is not over the hill, Thomas has been a top tier WR and I assume there is a good chance he will be recovered enough to play otherwise why would he have been signed and why is he traveling with the team?
I’m rooting for him because he is a talented receiver who could be a great weapon for Brady.
I’m rooting for Gordon too but in November/December I’d rather have a 100% Thomas because the chance of Gordon staying clean is just so slim.

A 31 year-old WR coming off an achilles injury has a lot to overcome. That's not to say Thomas can't fully recover, but if you're going to consider history as it pertains to Gordon, surely you should consider history in light of Thomas too, right? History indicates that a 30+ year-old WR coming off a significant injury is unlikely to return to prior form.

And to be fair, Thomas has never been a "top tier" WR. Great at times? Yes. But top-tier is an overstatement IMO. Gordon, at his peak, is a top-tier WR.

Let's also apply your "why would he have been signed" logic to Gordon. Why would the team have signed Gordon, and then kept him on the roster this offseason, if there isn't "a good chance he will be [able] to play"? If the that line of reasoning applies to Thomas, then surely it does for Gordon too, right?

 

[203Pat]

We could go back and forth with anecdotal examples and prove both sides of the argument. I’ll call your Dez Bryant (who was horribly overrated to begin with) and raise you a jerry rice
My point is that 31 is not over the hill, Thomas has been a top tier WR and I assume there is a good chance he will be recovered enough to play otherwise why would he have been signed and why is he traveling with the team?
I’m rooting for him because he is a talented receiver who could be a great weapon for Brady.
I’m rooting for Gordon too but in November/December I’d rather have a 100% Thomas because the chance of Gordon staying clean is just so slim.

So we are going to say DT can play at 31 because Jerry Rice played at 31? Seems over the top to say the least. 31 is definitely on the back 9 of a receivers career even without an achilles tear. I would love to be wrong and have him looking like a legitimate receiving threat down the stretch but I seriously doubt it.

As for traveling with the team, Danny Etling did last year and how did that work out for him?

 

[catent]

We will have to disagree. Gordon has not gone through a season without a suspension in how many years?
Thomas has been injured once.

I think that a person getting a dwi once is a little different than a person whose career is consistent run of repeated suspensions for substance abuse.
Any player can get injured, you assume that risk.
Are you honestly telling me if Gordon is reinstated tomorrow the risk of him but making through the season isn’t higher than every other player in the league?
I wish he had control of his demons but if you are honest about it you can’t expect anything but another suspension.

You do not know Gordon's current mental/psychological state, so to assume/imply that he is not in control is unfair to him.

How is anyone supposed to recover from this pernicious illness/disease if we assume they aren't capable of recovering?

 

[rochrist]

Don't know what hooch you have been drinking but Thomas has not had a HOF career, no way no how.

He's averaged 76 catches a season. Randy Moss averaged 70. Not THAT much of a stretch,

 

[JayNM]

What? Shaun Alexander, Larry Johnson, Nnamdi Asomugha, Albert Haynesworth, Peyton Manning are just a few I can name off the top of my head.

If you're talking strictly training camp to the regular season: Zach Sudfeld, Austin Carr, Kembrell Thompkins, Ralph Webb, Armond Armstead to name a few.

I mean, that's clearly apples to oranges, and u see it, right? hahaha

Im talking about ROOKIES who have been great, not veterans who found the so called cliff

 

[rochrist]

I think from a production point (and given a limited playbook to be fair) Gordon easily outplayed DT last year before injury and at this stage of their careers Gordon has potential to still become an elite WR....to your point , Thomas is coming back from a devastatingly difficult injury to come back from...and Gordon may not get reinstated....so yes BOTH are question marks!

How do you get 'easily outplayed'? Thomas had 60 catches in 15 games playing with garbage QBs. Gordon had 40 in 11 games playing with Brady.

 

[Patsgofor4]

A nice wrap-up of today's practice, including a "player of the day" nod to none other than Gunner Olszewski:

Patriots-Titans joint practices: Tom Brady’s young weapons step up, scuffles break out and more observations from Day 2 in Tennessee

The nightmare scenario: Due to injuries at the wide receiver position, Gunner gets more exposure and plays well. The Pats would love to keep him on the 53 but there is no space for a developmental player with such a stacked roster. They tried to sneak him onto the PS but he gets claimed by a rebuilding team and two years from now is the best slot WR in the league.

 

[RobertWeathers]

IMO, a backup punt returner is not worth a roster spot.

The interesting thing is last year the NEP fielded 25 punts. The year before was 32, 2016, 45 2015, 47

 

[DaBruinz]

Vrabes needs to ditch the stache.. .It doesn't suit him..

 

[Brandon_Cox]

And let us not forget that Thomas was involved in a MVA while driving drunk. That seems to get skimmed over, but if we're concerned about Gordon's substance-use and reliability, certainly that has to be considered re: Thomas, too.

Get your facts straight there Bubba. When DT was recently charged with what was basically reckless driving, alcohol was not involved.

 

[mgteich]

Yes, a backup punter is of even less value than in the past.

The interesting thing is last year the NEP fielded 25 punts. The year before was 32, 2016, 45 2015, 47

 

[rochrist]

He played very little in the Redskins game and got hurt in the next-to-last Texans' regular season game. So really he played 14 games 2018 and played 16 in 2017. That could make up some of the difference in production.

He was also targeted a lot more in 2016 and 2017 than in 2018 and there could be many reasons for that. It could be the offensive system, the QB, coverages, etc. It isn't necessarily a significant decline in ability.

Not to mention garbage QBs at both places.

 

[Deus Irae]

I don't think it's "silly" to think that a receiver who was fading prior to a major injury isn't likely to make a big impact on the team. A lot of these high end receivers production declines over the last couple years of their career then an injury puts a nail in the coffin.

Torry Holt: 2007 93 catches 1189 yards and a Pro Bowl, 2008 64 catches for 796 yards, 2009 51 catches for 722 yards on a new team. By the next year he signed with us got injured and that was that.

DT: 2016 90 catches for 1083 yards and a Pro Bowl, 2017 83 catches for 949 yards, 2018 59 catches for 677 yards and a new team. Hurt and signed with us.

What you're using as the basis for your "fading" claim is statistics mining that shows a drop of 7 catches from the first year to the second, and then an admittedly bigger drop from year 2 to 3, but a 7 catch fluctuation is nothing, especially for a WR2, and the drop from year 2 to year 3 can obviously be at least partly attributed to the QB turnover and coaching problems in Denver.

In other words, you're taking something that was possibly a small to non-existent diminishment, and blowing it up because it fits your narrative. It seems to me that "silly" was a kind way of pointing that out.

 

[DaBruinz]

Between Shillique Calhoun, Obi Melifonwu, Duke Dawson, etc. there are going to be a lot of hard decisions regarding our Mr. Ebner.........

.

How many times was that said about Larry Izzo.. Then Matt Slater..
I think Calhoun making the team has nothing to do with Ebner and everything to do with the team needing LB depth behind Collins, Van Noy, Hightower, and Bentley..

Melifonwu is interesting because he was so hightly touted coming out and then was injured his first year before being waived and grabbed by the Pats. He spent quite a bit of time in the system, but he couldn't bust into the 46man game roster.

People are forgetting that the Patriots didn't bring back Humbar and McClellan. Two HUGE pieces of the Special Teams turn around last season. People should be focused on how the Patriots are replacing them instead of how they are getting rid of Ebner..

 

[Ras-IR Dowling]

A 31 year-old WR coming off an achilles injury has a lot to overcome. That's not to say Thomas can't fully recover, but if you're going to consider history as it pertains to Gordon, surely you should consider history in light of Thomas too, right? History indicates that a 30+ year-old WR coming off a significant injury is unlikely to return to prior form.

And to be fair, Thomas has never been a "top tier" WR. Great at times? Yes. But top-tier is an overstatement IMO. Gordon, at his peak, is a top-tier WR.

Let's also apply your "why would he have been signed" logic to Gordon. Why would the team have signed Gordon, and then kept him on the roster this offseason, if there isn't "a good chance he will be [able] to play"? If the that line of reasoning applies to Thomas, then surely it does for Gordon too, right?

Not sure what your criteria is for “Top Tier” but over 6 seasons (2012-17), Thomas averaged 95 catches 1300 yards 8 TDs.

 

[Kargetina]

A 31 year-old WR coming off an achilles injury has a lot to overcome. That's not to say Thomas can't fully recover, but if you're going to consider history as it pertains to Gordon, surely you should consider history in light of Thomas too, right? History indicates that a 30+ year-old WR coming off a significant injury is unlikely to return to prior form.

And to be fair, Thomas has never been a "top tier" WR. Great at times? Yes. But top-tier is an overstatement IMO. Gordon, at his peak, is a top-tier WR.

Let's also apply your "why would he have been signed" logic to Gordon. Why would the team have signed Gordon, and then kept him on the roster this offseason, if there isn't "a good chance he will be [able] to play"? If the that line of reasoning applies to Thomas, then surely it does for Gordon too, right?

DT had 41 TD's, 5787 yards from 2012-2015, 4 straight Pro Bowls, 2 All Pro.

Gordon has 19 TD's, 3,826 in his entire career.

Gordon's best season: 1646 yards/9 TD's
DT's best season: 1619 yards/11 TD's

DT was a Top 3 receiver from 2012-2015. Gordon, so far, is nothing but a one hit wonder. One great season, 6 years ago.

 

[203Pat]

I mean, that's clearly apples to oranges, and u see it, right? hahaha

Im talking about ROOKIES who have been great, not veterans who found the so called cliff

Ahh alright I see what you were getting at then.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yes, a backup punter is of even less value than in the past.

Unless they don't want JE to be the prime anymore.