8/15 - Thursday Pats/Titans Joint Session Thread

[BaconGrundleCandy]

If BB and Vrabel are this happy with what they've seen in practice, this probably means that Saturday's game is going to start a lot of third stringers.

Which means the 53 is very close is to set & we're looking at very few spots.

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

I'm thinking now were you the one when we first started seeing Glimpses of Thompkins and you would bust his balls for being a body catcher was that you?
I just remember half the board loved him half the board undecided and a one or 2 posters said he was nothing more than a Jay due to body catching

 

[catent]

As for the Gordon/Thomas debate, I think folks need to make a distinction between the two types of reliability being discussed.

There's on-field reliability, meaning who is likely to be the more consistent, productive, and dependable player when they're on the field, and that's clearly Gordon at this time. He understands the playbook, he's younger, he's not coming off a significant physical injury, and at his peak is arguably better than Thomas in terms of ability, albeit not by a huge margin.

Regarding reliability insofar as who is more likely to see the field and play sooner, you'd give the nod to Thomas, although the gap isn't that big IMO. Nonetheless, you'd have to assume that Thomas is more likely to return from his injury and play in some capacity sooner than Gordon is to return from his suspension, given who's presiding over Gordon's pending reinstatement.

 

[203Pat]

Agree that we may carry 6 wr and 2 te to open season.

Berrios is going to make the team though. Too many injuries at the position and from what I've read, his play has picked up and he's had a great week.

You're saying two TE's in addition to the suspended Watson? Because Watson and Lacosse are virtual locks and as of right now both might not be available opening night so I would say it is a virtual certainty we carry more than 2 TE's.

As for receivers I don't count Slater so I would say Edelman, Harry, Dorsett, Meyers, and Berrios. DT on PUP.

 

[PatsFan2]

You're saying two TE's in addition to the suspended Watson? Because Watson and Lacosse are virtual locks and as of right now both might not be available opening night so I would say it is a virtual certainty we carry more than 2 TE's.

As for receivers I don't count Slater so I would say Edelman, Harry, Dorsett, Meyers, and Berrios. DT on PUP.

I think we get a Four week exemption for Watson *suspension*. Why are people dismissing Maurice Harris?? He's been very good from reports here.

 

[Bourne Again Christian]

I think we get a Four week exemption for Watson *suspension*. Why are people dismissing Maurice Harris?? He's been very good from reports here.

I'm not

 

[catent]

And as a follow-up to my Gordon/Thomas post, I think generally we'll see a lot of 3-4 WR sets and less TE usage, primarily due to personnel.

You want your best players on the field, and given the lack of talent at TE outside of Watson, and to a lesser extent LaCosse, and given the abundance of talent at WR, you'll naturally see more WRs and fewer TEs.

Between Edelman, Meyers, and Harry, who are locks, some combination of Gordon/Thomas, and pick 1 or 2 among Harris, Dorsett, and Inman, you have a lot of talent right there.

What I'm also looking forward to is the space that will be created by having 3-4 capable WRs on the field at any given time. Yes, you'll have fewer TEs blocking, but by spreading the field there will be running lanes for Michel et al., which is an exciting prospect.

 

[catent]

You're saying two TE's in addition to the suspended Watson? Because Watson and Lacosse are virtual locks and as of right now both might not be available opening night so I would say it is a virtual certainty we carry more than 2 TE's.

As for receivers I don't count Slater so I would say Edelman, Harry, Dorsett, Meyers, and Berrios. DT on PUP.

I don't see any possibility that Berrios makes the team ahead of Harris, or Inman for that matter. In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that Dorsett makes the team ahead of those two, although he's in much better position than Berrios. I could be entirely wrong, though, and Berrios appears to bring some ST value.

 

[203Pat]

About Meyers, based on practice reports, and not counting something unexpected or a sudden rookie wall appearing, I would be shocked if we don't see him suiting up for Week #1

Someone who is consisently being great doesn't suddenly start being mediocre out of the blue. I am really excited about this kids' future, even if it is way too soon to make any prediction[/QUOTE]

What? Shaun Alexander, Larry Johnson, Nnamdi Asomugha, Albert Haynesworth, Peyton Manning are just a few I can name off the top of my head.

If you're talking strictly training camp to the regular season: Zach Sudfeld, Austin Carr, Kembrell Thompkins, Ralph Webb, Armond Armstead to name a few.

 

[Wheelssps]

And as a follow-up to my Gordon/Thomas post, I think generally we'll see a lot of 3-4 WR sets and less TE usage, primarily due to personnel.

You want your best players on the field, and given the lack of talent at TE outside of Watson, and to a lesser extent LaCosse, and given the abundance of talent at WR, you'll naturally see more WRs and fewer TEs.

I agree with this about featuring the TE less, and I think that we could see more 2RB 3WR sets with Devlin in there as a full back and then taking on more of a role as a blocking TE either through motion or post snap. I know that the skill sets for blocking TE and fullback are a little bit different, but there's plenty of overlap,too.

This would also serve to disguise the run and pass, as the set looks more multiple instead of simply lining up in spread. It also works for more playaction, which I think will be heavily featured this year to complement the running game.

 

[203Pat]

I don't see any possibility that Berrios makes the team ahead of Harris, or Inman for that matter. In fact, I'm not entirely convinced that Dorsett makes the team ahead of those two, although he's in much better position than Berrios. I could be entirely wrong, though, and Berrios appears to bring some ST value.

I think Berrios ST ability is what gets him on the roster. Aside from Edelman who else that will realistically make the team can return punts? The only one I even know of is Chung and that isn't a great option either.

 

[catent]

I think Berrios ST ability is what gets him on the roster. Aside from Edelman who else that will realistically make the team can return punts? The only one I even know of is Chung and that isn't a great option either.

Harry and Meyers have seen time returning punts, as has Harris IIRC (although he muffed one in camp). I think someone like J. Jones could also be a candidate, although I can't recall if he's ever tried the role; I want to say he returned a kickoff at one point?

 

[Ring 6]

Why is it logically valid to hand wave Thomas' major injury away with "IF HEALTHY" but it's just too much of a leap to think Gordon could play again?

Btw, I think Gordon is the better WR all else being equal.

Well because if Thomas isn’t healthy there is nothing to discuss. Remove the if healthy and there is no Thomas.
With Gordon the assumption is IF REINSTATED the problem is that even if he is everything in his history says he will end up suspended again.

 

[TomPatriot]

I don't think it's "silly" to think that a receiver who was fading prior to a major injury isn't likely to make a big impact on the team. A lot of these high end receivers production declines over the last couple years of their career then an injury puts a nail in the coffin.

Torry Holt: 2007 93 catches 1189 yards and a Pro Bowl, 2008 64 catches for 796 yards, 2009 51 catches for 722 yards on a new team. By the next year he signed with us got injured and that was that.

DT: 2016 90 catches for 1083 yards and a Pro Bowl, 2017 83 catches for 949 yards, 2018 59 catches for 677 yards and a new team. Hurt and signed with us.

He played very little in the Redskins game and got hurt in the next-to-last Texans' regular season game. So really he played 14 games 2018 and played 16 in 2017. That could make up some of the difference in production.

He was also targeted a lot more in 2016 and 2017 than in 2018 and there could be many reasons for that. It could be the offensive system, the QB, coverages, etc. It isn't necessarily a significant decline in ability.

 

[203Pat]

He played very little in the Redskins game and got hurt in the next-to-last Texans' regular season game. So really he played 14 games 2018 and played 16 in 2017. That could make up some of the difference in production.

He was also targeted a lot more in 2016 and 2017 than in 2018 and there could be many reasons for that. It could be the offensive system, the QB, coverages, etc. It isn't necessarily a significant decline in ability.

He played in 3/4th of the game he tore is achilles in. If he even comes close to matching last years ypg (45) and rpg (3.9) I will be surprised.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Harry and Meyers have seen time returning punts, as has Harris IIRC (although he muffed one in camp). I think someone like J. Jones could also be a candidate, although I can't recall if he's ever tried the role; I want to say he returned a kickoff at one point?

JJ has never returned a kick of any kind at this level.

At this point, Berrios is the clear leader (aside from JE) on the punt return team.

 

[catent]

Well because if Thomas isn’t healthy there is nothing to discuss. Remove the if healthy and there is no Thomas.
With Gordon the assumption is IF REINSTATED the problem is that even if he is everything in his history says he will end up suspended again.

And likewise, if Gordon isn't reinstated there's nothing to discuss.

That's the whole point -- both of these guys are facing obstacles to getting on the field; Gordon's obstacles relate to reinstatement and ability to remain un-suspended, not health or production. Thomas' obstacles relate to health, and by extension of health, productivity.

I think Thomas is more likely to see the field sooner than Gordon, but I'm not convinced that he will ultimately be the better or more productive player should both end up playing.

And I'm also not convinced that Gordon is more likely than Thomas to stop playing, should they both return. While Gordon's history indicates he's been suspended often, that's not necessarily indicative of where he's at mentally/substance use wise right now. And on the other side of the coin, Thomas is older and coming off a major injury, so it's perfectly possible that he's unable to return to form or produce, or perhaps gets reinjured.

And let us not forget that Thomas was involved in a MVA while driving drunk. That seems to get skimmed over, but if we're concerned about Gordon's substance-use and reliability, certainly that has to be considered re: Thomas, too.

 

[Ring 6]

If you don't think Holt is a good comp then look at Dez. Dez was a physical legitimate WR1 started to get banged up his numbers declined. After having trouble finding a new team ended up with the Saints popped his achilles and that may be it for him. I agree that the quarterback play may have something to do with it but he also isn't anywhere near as fast as he used to be. He still had decent production because he looks to be a solid route runner. Will he still be a solid route runner coming off an achilles injury? Will he be able to stop and start and come out of breaks the way he needs to? I would love to be wrong and have him look like 2015 DT, I just think it is very unlikely.

As for Moss I don't think people thought he was done because of injuries. Aside from Raiders OC Tom Walsh who basically said Moss was washed up and lazy I think most people just thought he was lazy.

We could go back and forth with anecdotal examples and prove both sides of the argument. I’ll call your Dez Bryant (who was horribly overrated to begin with) and raise you a jerry rice
My point is that 31 is not over the hill, Thomas has been a top tier WR and I assume there is a good chance he will be recovered enough to play otherwise why would he have been signed and why is he traveling with the team?
I’m rooting for him because he is a talented receiver who could be a great weapon for Brady.
I’m rooting for Gordon too but in November/December I’d rather have a 100% Thomas because the chance of Gordon staying clean is just so slim.

 

[mgteich]

Who was the last UDFA WR that made the 53 and was a serious contributor?

Kembrell Thompkins was a training camp favorite but struggled in real games.

Time will tell with Myers.

 

[mgteich]

Don't think we know that yet, but with him returning punts and 100% healthy while the other two aren't, I think he has a great chance of making the team. What do you think?

I'd rather have Harris and Dorsett.

Returning punts is irrelevant for someone who would likely be inactive.