30 for 30: Randy Moss on espn Tuesday night

[SVN]

http://www.boston.com/sports/articles/2008/07/23/moss_uncovered/?page=full

 

[Oswlek]

I am record as saying from 2007 to 2009, Moss was a fantastic Patriot. He may have had his moments when Brady went down in 2008 and Cassell came in but overall he was fine.

I've heard from quasi-reliable sources that players were already walking on eggshells around Moss at the end of 2007. By 2009 it was a full blown issue, though the team did a great job of keeping it under wraps.

Randy didn't just go off the rails in 2010, and they were already planning on moving on sooner rather than later.

 

[Ring 6]

I am record as saying from 2007 to 2009, Moss was a fantastic Patriot. He may have had his moments when Brady went down in 2008 and Cassell came in but overall he was fine.

What do you mean by you are on record? That you have stated that opinion before?
Can you explain what you based that opinion on? I mean if you are saying you know he was a good teammate (and thats what I infered from your comment) where is this coming from? Do you have inside information that you are drawing that conclusion from, or is it just how you feel based upon your view as a fan?

 

[RobertWeathers]

What do you mean by you are on record? That you have stated that opinion before? Can you explain what you based that opinion on?

I was not one of those posters who implied that Randy was "dogging it" based on 1/2 ass route-running or one that was prior to 2010 was a complete disruption- from my view that was conjecture. At the end of the day, from 2007 to 2009 he didn't tarnish the brand or the team's image and produced at a high-level. That is what I am basing my opinion on.

I mean if you are saying you know he was a good teammate (and thats what I infered from your comment) where is this coming from? Do you have inside information that you are drawing that conclusion from, or is it just how you feel based upon your view as a fan?

Never said he was a good- or bad teammate. He produced at a high-level and helped the team win. Players that don't produce or help the team win are not fantastic.

 

[Ring 6]

I was not one of those posters who implied that Randy was "dogging it" based on 1/2 ass route-running or one that was prior to 2010 was a complete disruption- from my view that was conjecture. At the end of the day, from 2007 to 2009 he didn't tarnish the brand or the team's image and produced at a high-level. That is what I am basing my opinion on.



Never said he was a good- or bad teammate. He produced at a high-level and helped the team win. Players that don't produce or help the team win are not fantastic.

Thanks for clarifying

 

[RobertWeathers]

I've heard from reliable sources that players were already walking on eggshells around Moss at the end of 2007. By 2009 it was a full blown issue, though the team did a great job of keeping it under wraps.

I don't doubt it. I guess in the end the team felt that they could deal with whatever his "baggage" was thus giving him a contract after the 2007 season.

Randy didn't just go off the rails in 2010, and they were already planning on moving on sooner rather than later.

I agree. They anticipated Moss boiling over. Contract, change in a TE-oriented attack thus Moss getting less touches maybe, etc.

 

[Oswlek]

I don't doubt it. Clearly the team felt that they could deal with whatever his "baggage" was thus giving him a contract after the 2007 season.

I agree. They anticipated Moss boiling over. Contract, change in a TE-oriented attack thus Moss getting less touches maybe, etc.

Yup, production helps you over look a lot, and boy did Randy produce.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Yup, production helps you over look a lot, and boy did Randy produce.

No question. Producing is the #1 reason he was re-signed. I think there may be a little more too it as well.

Jimmy Johnson and other great coaches have said that you need to have rules and standards that are inflexible, but you do need to treat every player different. How they produce, value to the team, do they help you win, etc. Everyone is motivated by something. A great coach finds that something.

Every now and then you hear Bill talk about players that have that "extra sense", are extremely intelligent and just "get it"...almost savant-like. Bill is fascinated by those guys. Their football IQ is off the charts. When talking about those types of players, Brady, Lawrence Taylor, Gronk, Revis, etc. he has mentioned Randy. That, along with being a a 6'4" run-like-a-deer WR who catches TDs in his sleep and helps you win and can pickup a playbook the size of a phonebook in 20 minutes are the type of player you would bend a little for...

 

[New England Pride]

I've heard from reliable sources that players were already walking on eggshells around Moss at the end of 2007. By 2009 it was a full blown issue, though the team did a great job of keeping it under wraps.

Randy didn't just go off the rails in 2010, and they were already planning on moving on sooner rather than later.

Interesting. Do you have a link or something more concrete?

 

[Oswlek]

Interesting. Do you have a link or something more concrete?

Unfortunately, no. It was verbal communication with two people. The first of which was a friend of an acquaintance who worked for the Patriots. I wouldn't have given it much credence, but then I heard the same thing after a chance encounter and conversation with a media member.

Calling them individually "reliable" is probably overstating it, but combined they were pretty convincing, particularly the latter one.

 

[festy1986]

Randy wasn't and isn't perfect. I've done stupid things too. Even if randy wants to brush his supposed assault to the side as a giant misunderstanding it's irrelevant.

He served legitimate time in prison/jail for that crime. He served legitimate time in jail for failed drug test of weed for crying out loud.

Adrian Peterson will serve none for beating his child with a stick and admitting under oath to smoking weed.

Randy paid for his crimes and I don't know what person holds something against a 17 year old kid that happened 20 years ago.

Like I said, I forgive randy moss. He hasn't killed anyone as far as I know and that's more than I can say for other patriot or nfl players.

 

[New England Pride]

Unfortunately, no. It was verbal communication with two people. The first of which was a friend of an acquaintance who worked for the Patriots. I wouldn't have given it much credence, but then I heard the same thing after a chance encounter and conversation with a media member.

Calling them individually "reliable" is probably overstating it, but combined they were pretty convincing, particularly the latter one.

I believe it though. We all remember the dog faker thread from 09. Not crazy to think that bad behavior started earlier than that.

 

[RobertWeathers]

We all remember the dog faker thread from 09. .

That was one helluva thread. That and Andy's 2010 "A Balanced Look At The Defense" are ones that stick out.

 

[Kontradiction]

I've heard from reliable sources that players were already walking on eggshells around Moss at the end of 2007. By 2009 it was a full blown issue, though the team did a great job of keeping it under wraps.

Randy didn't just go off the rails in 2010, and they were already planning on moving on sooner rather than later.

I was at the Miami game in 2010 and remembered thinking that his body language was that of a man not happy with where he was. That said, it was pretty easy for me to tell. He walked away from his team in front of an entire stadium during the "Star Spangled Banner" and went to the bench by himself.

 

[Bobsyouruncle]

No one who knows me has ever accused me of being a "bleeding heart," but I think your assessment is unnecessarily harsh.

Yes, the beating that the kid received was criminal and its perpetrators should have been and indeed were punished, but the documentary made a real effort at putting it into a context that included racist taunting and what we would now call "bullying" by a majority of a relatively small minority contingent.

When did they say it was a majority? They said one kid scribbled something onto a desk, and that's just Randy's story. Considering his attitude about how nothing is his fault I would take that story with a grain of salt. But even if it's true this comes across as the soft racism of low expectations. It's cool if Randy and his buddy jump some kid and beat him half to death because of an alleged N-word carved into a desk because Randy's just a poor black kid. But it's not okay if some poor white kid says something that gives Randy a sad. Poor white kids aren't allowed to use words put poor black kids can hand out beatings- cuz they're poor and black. Nice double standard.

The documentary doesn't at any point suggest that it was "the town's fault," but it clearly suggests that the event was not without ongoing, repeated and cruel provocation.

So, not Randy's fault. Yet somehow his friend who also went to the NFL didn't have the same issue. And we're talking about a superstar athlete, in the 90's (not the 50's), as if the whole town wasn't kissing his ass. He sounds pretty thin skinned to me. How many people had someone say mean words to them in HS? Everyone- I guess we can all beat the s*** out of someone and blame the town for not properly policing people's words that gave us hurt feelings.

The documentary does not say that he was apprehended for marijuana use because the police were against him, but does present the fact that no one else had ever had their probation/parole revoked in that town for possession of a small amount of marijuana for personal use, which is now legal in many states and large cities. But that is what happened to Moss.

This strikes me as another line of bull. Probation is exactly that, do one more thing and you get busted. Is there some new fangled probation where you can commit crimes?

The documentary also does not suggest that Moss feels anyone owes him an apology for his not being drafted higher, but rather that he fully understands why he wasn't drafted higher and that he used this as motivation.

As for the rest of your comments, I guess I'll just leave it that I really disagree that he "faced very little adversity."

What adversity did he face? Single mom? So does half the country, and they don't have the chances Randy had in life. Seriously, Randy basically knew he'd get a college ride and be a millionaire by 17 if he just didn't get arrested but despite this privileged position in life at such a young age he's justified in being a prick to this day because he had a single mom and not everyone was nice to him?

He was a young guy without a lot of role models and he ****ed up, big time, costing himself chances to go to Notre Dame and Florida and several million dollars based on how far he dropped in the Draft. He remained a difficult guy throughout his career; a prima donna Wide Receiver. He left the Pats in a huff but, as others have pointed out, he never trashed them as he did so.

And yes, a lot of this was spite by people in West Virginia, whose name nobody knows today. Moss mishandled his relationship with that community big time, but he wasn't getting a lot of help in dealing with it.

Not every black athlete who succeeds is Michael Jordan or Derek Jeter or DJ or Parish or Big Papi or even an obnoxious LeBron or Carmelo, who manage to keep their noses clean. A lot of these guys have a lot harder time getting past where they came from.

As a dad, I look at Randy Moss and wish I had had a chance to be his parent or teacher when he was 10 or 11, the age my kids are today. God only knows whether I could have made a difference in his life, but maybe someone could have done so.

I hope you're not so harsh on those near and dear to you.

Sorry but I grew up poor with only my mom in a small town, and I'm the same age as Moss so I'm not buying how hard it is to not get arrested. But that's not even the issue. I can look back and admit I did dumb stuff, say I acted like a stupid kid like most people can and I didn't do half as much stupid s*** as Moss. In Cris Carter's story he talked about the dumb stuff he did, but not Moss. It one excuse after another, no "Hey, I was a kid." He came across as a spoiled child who blames everyone else for the dumb stuff he did as a kid.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

I've heard from reliable sources that players were already walking on eggshells around Moss at the end of 2007. By 2009 it was a full blown issue, though the team did a great job of keeping it under wraps.

Randy didn't just go off the rails in 2010, and they were already planning on moving on sooner rather than later.

There is, indeed, a sense in which it can be said that Randy Moss was probably never "on the rails." So, maybe it's just a question of degree...how close was he to the rails at one time and how far off at another? My own guess is that September 2007 through February 3, 2008 was probably the closest he ever was to the rails in his entire NFL career...or life for that matter.

In general, I think we should be careful out here about citing anonymous, "reliable sources." To my mind, the only "reliable source" about what was going on in the Pats Locker Room would be someone who was part of the Locker Room. So, if that's what you mean, just say it; you don't have to divulge the name. If you're relying on someone from the media, you could mention that as well, without violating any confidences.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

When did they say it was a majority? They said one kid scribbled something onto a desk, and that's just Randy's story. Considering his attitude about how nothing is his fault I would take that story with a grain of salt. But even if it's true this comes across as the soft racism of low expectations. It's cool if Randy and his buddy jump some kid and beat him half to death because of an alleged N-word carved into a desk because Randy's just a poor black kid. But it's not okay if some poor white kid says something that gives Randy a sad. Poor white kids aren't allowed to use words put poor black kids can hand out beatings- cuz they're poor and black. Nice double standard.



So, not Randy's fault. Yet somehow his friend who also went to the NFL didn't have the same issue. And we're talking about a superstar athlete, in the 90's (not the 50's), as if the whole town wasn't kissing his ass. He sounds pretty thin skinned to me. How many people had someone say mean words to them in HS? Everyone- I guess we can all beat the s*** out of someone and blame the town for not properly policing people's words that gave us hurt feelings.



This strikes me as another line of bull. Probation is exactly that, do one more thing and you get busted. Is there some new fangled probation where you can commit crimes?



What adversity did he face? Single mom? So does half the country, and they don't have the chances Randy had in life. Seriously, Randy basically knew he'd get a college ride and be a millionaire by 17 if he just didn't get arrested but despite this privileged position in life at such a young age he's justified in being a prick to this day because he had a single mom and not everyone was nice to him?



Sorry but I grew up poor with only my mom in a small town, and I'm the same age as Moss so I'm not buying how hard it is to not get arrested. But that's not even the issue. I can look back and admit I did dumb stuff, say I acted like a stupid kid like most people can and I didn't do half as much stupid s*** as Moss. In Cris Carter's story he talked about the dumb stuff he did, but not Moss. It one excuse after another, no "Hey, I was a kid." He came across as a spoiled child who blames everyone else for the dumb stuff he did as a kid.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my post.

It is, I think, possible for two people to see something through two sets of lenses that are so different that it is impossible to have a conversation that doesn't include hours of back and forth, explaining one's perspective and understanding the other's perspective.

So, without trying to change your perspective, I'm just going to say that I disagree with your perception of the events portrayed on ESPN last night and that it differs from my perception of what are essentially the same set of facts.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

Unfortunately, no. It was verbal communication with two people. The first of which was a friend of an acquaintance who worked for the Patriots. I wouldn't have given it much credence, but then I heard the same thing after a chance encounter and conversation with a media member.

Calling them individually "reliable" is probably overstating it, but combined they were pretty convincing, particularly the latter one.

Just saw this. "a friend of an acquaintance" wouldn't exactly fit my definition of "reliable." The fact that it was confirmed in a "chance encounter and conversation with a media member" pretty much puts it firmly in the category of "rumor" in my book, but to each his own. Who knows? Some rumors turn out to have been or be true!

A guy who does the play by play for network NFL games and a woman who was a sideline reporter for MNF used to live on my floor in my building here in NYC. I heard some interesting stuff from them. Once or twice I used it out here, but I always attributed it. If I didn't feel I could attribute it to them, I didn't expect anyone to believe it. I never repeated anything that was private or personal. Nowadays, I also run into Peter King walking his dog on my block. I've chatted with him a couple of times for a few moments (not many Pats fans in NYC). I wouldn't dream of repeating anything he says unless it was stuff he'd published.

 

[Oswlek]

Just saw this. "a friend of an acquaintance" wouldn't exactly fit my definition of "reliable." The fact that it was confirmed in a "chance encounter and conversation with a media member" pretty much puts it firmly in the category of "rumor" in my book, but to each his own. Who knows? Some rumors turn out to have been or be true!

A guy who does the play by play for network NFL games and a woman who was a sideline reporter for MNF used to live on my floor in my building here in NYC. I heard some interesting stuff from them. Once or twice I used it out here, but I always attributed it. If I didn't feel I could attribute it to them, I didn't expect anyone to believe it.

Which is why I conceded that my "reliable" comment was off base. The fact that it was a chance meeting is irrelevant, all that matters was the content. In this case, I was completely convinced, though anyone can believe whatever they wish.

 

[Brady_to_Moss]

I've heard from quasi-reliable sources that players were already walking on eggshells around Moss at the end of 2007. By 2009 it was a full blown issue, though the team did a great job of keeping it under wraps.

Randy didn't just go off the rails in 2010, and they were already planning on moving on sooner rather than later.

Then why a big deal after 2007? Sorry I just don't buy that. Ya maybe in 09 it became an issue..but if it was an issue in 07...they wouldn't have gave him that deal