3-4 Defense with Hightower and Jones

[tonyto3690]

The Patriots have been running a lot (primarily) 34 looks in camp so far. With Jones at DE along with Kelly with obviously Wilfork in the middle. Then Hightower and Ninkovich as OLBs and Spikes and Mayo in the middle. The second grouping takes Spikes off the field, pushes Hightower inside and has Collins at OLB.

This is a bit surprising and I wonder if it may be a waste of Chandlers abilities. He's noticeably bulked up, but I still don't think he's big enough, even in a 1gap system.

The other piece is Hightower. Always thought he could be a passable 34 OLB on certain snaps, but not sure how excited I am at the thought of it being the base set.

 

[Rob0729]

Don't get too hung up with formations run early in camp.

BTW, it is possible that if the Pats do switch back to the 3-4 that they do more one gap 3-4 where Jones would have rushing responsibilities. I tend to doubt it since Belichick is a two gap kind of guy.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

Offenses are evolving towards a five "skill player" dynamic with "read option".

It looks like BB wants to go 7-8...9 "space defenders" on the other side. Kinda like the old "****tail party" concept.

Maybe what we see this year will be as exotic as a two TE offense was in in 2010.

Besides, the defense had over 1100 official snaps last year. Plenty of snaps for every possible combination.

 

[MTM558]

The Patriots have definitely run a lot of 3-4 fronts in camp so far... but you're wrong when you say that it has been their primary package. They're still basing out of the 4-3, with Jones and Ninkovich down on the line as ends. The 4-3 is simply where this team's strength is at right now in terms of personnel. No defense is exclusively one or the other anymore, so of course there will be variation.

 

[signbabybrady]

As someone who has been to them all thus far I would agree with MTM their base has still seemed to be 4-3.

And I would also add that it is semantics a little bit. So long as we are still 2 gapping and so long as the personell is about the same I dont think it makes all that much of a difference if one edge guys has his hands down or not.

 

[VrabelJr]

I have heard very little about the Pats running 3-4 in camp so far.

 

[Fencer]

I wonder whether it's easier to teach 2-gap techniques in a 3-4. The 3 DL can line up over the 2 OTs and the C, and smile sweetly at the OGs. Nice and simple, so they can work on individual techniques a bit as a base to build a full defensive scheme on.

In any case, it's also important for the offense to practice AGAINST a 3-4.

 

[Ring 6]

Don't get too hung up with formations run early in camp.

BTW, it is possible that if the Pats do switch back to the 3-4 that they do more one gap 3-4 where Jones would have rushing responsibilities. I tend to doubt it since Belichick is a two gap kind of guy.

He has (rightfully) moved away from the staunch 2gap base because he recognizes you are dead if you can get pressure on early downs.

 

[manxman2601]

I wonder whether it's easier to teach 2-gap techniques in a 3-4. The 3 DL can line up over the 2 OTs and the C, and smile sweetly at the OGs. Nice and simple, so they can work on individual techniques a bit as a base to build a full defensive scheme on.

In any case, it's also important for the offense to practice AGAINST a 3-4.

I did read somewhere that BB likes to teach using the 3-4 early on - presumably for this very reason.

 

[manxman2601]

I have heard very little about the Pats running 3-4 in camp so far.

I've seen Michael Buchanan described as working with the LBs on more than a couple of occasions. He doesn't strike me as a 4-3 LB so I can only surmise that they've been working at 3-4 at least some of the time.

 

[AzPatsFan]

Many here do not understand why BB and Matty P have been emphasizing the 34 this TC, even with limited personnel to run it.

The reason is that the 34, two gap, is the best method to defeat the Read Option! It allows you to let the off end defend contain, and clobber the QB on the Read.

We don't really play any Read Option teams, but may run into one in the Playoffs, hence the attention. You will also note that there has been extra attention given to maintaining contain on both ends this year, even if contain on air, seems dumb. It part and parcel of containing the Read Option.

Personally, I don't think the RO is long for this World. It guarantees the QB, whether ball carier or not, can be legally clobbered on every play. That is unlike thhe revived Single Wing, aka, the "Wildcat", which protected the QB. So they won't be anywhere but IR in the playoffs. From evidence, the life expectancy of a RO QB seems to be about 8-10 games and worse than a RB. (RG III lasted 9 games, and Kaepernick only started 6 games.)

Russell Wilson is a different proposition, entirely. They found the lost mold for Fran Tarkenton, and made another. Tark always scrambled to avoid hits, then threw the ball. If nothing else was there, he bailed out to avoid the hits and lived to play until he was 40 or so. That is Wilson's game, not the Read Option.

BTW, Tark never won a Superbowl. Now you know the Rest of the Story.

 

[mgteich]

I've always preferred running primarily a 3-4 2 gap defense. I would note that this is not about starting personnel, who are the same in both cases.

 

[VrabelJr]

I think we're still a forum that is in attached to the 3-4 just because of our Super Bowl winning years. But how many people here realize that we used more 4-3 than 3-4 in two of those three Super Bowl victories?

I also don't think BB is overly concerned about the read option. It's the first week of camp. It's all about fundamentals right now.

 

[patriot lifer]

Do we really think that Tommy Kelly is going to 2-gap? I'm sure they're going over the fundamentals as they do every year with basic formations. Camp's just started. It's something to monitor if it persists consistently.

 

[Get it shawtaay]

He has (rightfully) moved away from the staunch 2gap base because he recognizes you are dead if you can get pressure on early downs.

Bingo. With Love, Wilfork, Spikes, and Hightower out there together, you had 4 guys who were a non-factor vs. the pass on early downs.

I don't think its a coincidence that Belichick is experimenting with lighter fronts and signed several players who are pass defenders (Kelly, Armstead, Collins, Adrian Wilson the nickel LB) this offseason.

The team needs to be able to defend both the run and the pass out of the same personnel, rather than rely on the nickel and dime to stop the pass.

 

[Brady6]

34, Hightower/Jones

The Patriots have been running a lot (primarily) 34 looks in camp so far. With Jones at DE along with Kelly with obviously Wilfork in the middle. Then Hightower and Ninkovich as OLBs and Spikes and Mayo in the middle. The second grouping takes Spikes off the field, pushes Hightower inside and has Collins at OLB.

This is a bit surprising and I wonder if it may be a waste of Chandlers abilities. He's noticeably bulked up, but I still don't think he's big enough, even in a 1gap system.

The other piece is Hightower. Always thought he could be a passable 34 OLB on certain snaps, but not sure how excited I am at the thought of it being the base set.

It looks like a 4-3 under in my opinion, with these 5 players around the line.

Leo DE- Ninkovich
3 tech DT- Kelly (1 gap)
1 tech NT- Wilfork (2 gap)
5 tech DE- Jones
Sam OLB- Hightower

I envision that depending on how the offense comes to the line Jones can pop out to a 6 or 7 technique to pass rush more effectively. It will work because you have your lighter 5 technique shadowed by a 270lb SAM in Hightower. I also think it will be really exciting to see Jones and Hightower coming off the same side on a pass rush.

 

[manxman2601]

It looks like a 4-3 under in my opinion, with these 5 players around the line.

Leo DE- Ninkovich
3 tech DT- Kelly (1 gap)
1 tech NT- Wilfork (2 gap)
5 tech DE- Jones
Sam OLB- Hightower

I envision that depending on how the offense comes to the line Jones can pop out to a 6 or 7 technique to pass rush more effectively. It will work because you have your lighter 5 technique shadowed by a 270lb SAM in Hightower. I also think it will be really exciting to see Jones and Hightower coming off the same side on a pass rush.

Marcus Benard is reportedly doing well as a speed rusher (less well when the OT gets his hands on him) so he could work well coming in on a sub down like Seattle has Bruce Irvin operating.

And I really like the notion of Chandler Jones and Hightower both rushing the passer from the same side.

 

[Brady6]

34, Hightower/Jones

.

And I really like the notion of Chandler Jones and Hightower both rushing the passer from the same side.

I'm very excited about the prospect of it. You're not going to be able to block Hightower consistently with a TE, the OT cannot commit because that leaves Jones with a clear path to QB since both the OG and OC will be attempting to block Wilfork.

I also think Willfork will have a career high 5-6 sacks this season. He has never played next to a consistent pass rusher that requires attention like a Kelly or Armstead. I know some will say Seymour but that was as a 0 technique and certainly not indicative or pass rushing.

 

[Joker]

so both of you Kipers dismiss any chance of Collins being that edge rusher you think Hightower should be?

funny...I guess BB is hiding it when they hold practices but I could have sworn I saw Collins doing exactly what you two are dreaming about Hightower doing, while Hightower was all over the field even covering WR's and doing it well.Guess covering tight ends is a garbage assignment when compared to "coming off the edge!" in the 4/3 Under! ...where have I heard that "4/3 Under" before....hmmmmm...very familiar...oh wait...now I remember...Pete "The Cleaner" Carroll...sorry, already seen THAT movie.

 

[manxman2601]

so both of you Kipers dismiss any chance of Collins being that edge rusher you think Hightower should be?

funny...I guess BB is hiding it when they hold practices but I could have sworn I saw Collins doing exactly what you two are dreaming about Hightower doing, while Hightower was all over the field even covering WR's and doing it well.Guess covering tight ends is a garbage assignment when compared to "coming off the edge!" in the 4/3 Under! ...where have I heard that "4/3 Under" before....hmmmmm...very familiar...oh wait...now I remember...Pete "The Cleaner" Carroll...sorry, already seen THAT movie.

Ugh. Where did we dismiss it? You understand that in the NFL it's quite possible for more than one person to be allowed to rush the passer. And there have been accounts coming out of camp about Hightower doing pass rushing drills and Collins doing coverage drills.

Huh.

-Dont’a Hightower took part in some pass rush one-on-one drills.

-Jamie Collins continued to show his versatility by covering the slot one-on-one.

Read more at: Josh Boyce?s Precise Footwork, Route Running Stand Out in Patriots Training Camp Practice (Notes) | New England Patriots | NESN.com

Does this mean they try different people at different drills? Fancy that.