Poor drafting now biting the Patriots in the butt?

203Pat · Dec 11, 2019

moosekill said:
You keep comparing Wilson to Jackson. They aren't the same kind of qb, one is a throwing qb who can run, the other is a running back who can throw. They are not the same kind of player. Jackson may eventually become more like Wilson but as of now they aren't. You seem fixated on Wilson as a comparison, they are different.

I’m not fixated on anything. The simpleton I was responding to said QB’s who run don’t win. I named a few QB’s who ran that won. Does Jackson run more than them? Yes obviously. Does that mean he will automatically get hurt? Not necessarily.

I just love the pissiness of this board when some other QB comes along every year or so and it’s the same old “he’s gonna get hurt” or “let’s see him do it 20 years in a row!”. Some posters on here seem to be rooting for him to get hurt and it’s embarrassing. Lamar Jackson and Pat Mahomes don’t take away from anything Brady has done and there is a 99% chance neither of them will have half the success Brady has. Just enjoy watching good quarterbacks. I know half the posters here would rather watch JP Losman, EJ Manuel and 29 other losers bumble around out there but I think the league is more exciting when there is some actual talent.

borisman · Dec 11, 2019

DarrylS said:
Jimmy Garrapolo (14) and Jacoby Brissett (16) say hi...

Note to all, the draft is roll of the dice sometimes any team wins and many times they lose.. when you pick at the end of every round, the pickings a slimmer..

We all know and understand this. But when all the drafniks (and those that actually know the prospects) disagree with constant reaches in the second round that starts to take it's toll, and it has.

50-yard-line · Dec 11, 2019

ctpatsfan77 said:
Talking about the number of picks is meaningless without looking at the rounds.

Or WHERE in each round they draft, or WHO they traded picks to acquire (Cooks, Van Noy, etc.).

And I agree wholeheartedly with the post below: it's kind of hard to blame guys like Harry when they're not even given a chance/one mistake puts them in the dog pound. A lot of this is on McDaniels and Brady.

As for Michel...yes, Chubb looks fantastic. He's also getting holes and not taking on a DT or DE as soon as he gets the ball on every play. i don't know why Michel wasn't more integrated into the passing game to keep teams from stacking the box when he's in there, but again, that's on McDaniels and Brady. Michel can catch and run.

As for JJ Williams, he's behind the deepest and best secondary in football. Pretty simple.

As for Harris...another head-scratcher. I don't know how good he is or isn't, and neither does anyone else watching the games.

50-yard-line · Dec 11, 2019

NG Pats Fan said:
Our last three first round picks....

NKeal Harry
Isiah Wynn
Sony Michel

Players we passed on in those selected spots

Lamar Jackson
Calvin Ridley
DJ Moore
Nick Chubb
DK Metcalf
Aj Brown
Deebo Samuel

Players who would almost certainly be doing little to nothing if they were here:
Lamar Jackson wouldn't get off the bench.
Any receiver.

Players who would/will likely be outstanding if they stay healthy:
Isaiah Wynn

Players who would be doing much better if they weren't here:
Sony Michel (on any team with a working OL - see last year as an example)

Also: Duke Dawson, starting and averaging almost 60 snaps a game with one of the best defenses in the league.
JJ Williams - see above re. Dawson.

Players who will likely be outstanding if healthy AND not here:
N'Keal Harry

203Pat · Dec 11, 2019

50-yard-line said:
Players who would almost certainly be doing little to nothing if they were here:
Lamar Jackson wouldn't get off the bench.
Any receiver.

Players who would/will likely be outstanding if they stay healthy:
Isaiah Wynn

Players who would be doing much better if they weren't here:
Sony Michel (on any team with a working OL - see last year as an example)

Also: Duke Dawson, starting and averaging almost 60 snaps a game with one of the best defenses in the league.
JJ Williams - see above re. Dawson.

Players who will likely be outstanding if healthy AND not here:
N'Keal Harry

So if all the circumstances were completely different then they are all home runs. Lol

dtbrks · Dec 11, 2019

DarrylS said:
Jimmy Garrapolo (14) and Jacoby Brissett (16) say hi...

Note to all, the draft is roll of the dice sometimes any team wins and many times they lose.. when you pick at the end of every round, the pickings a slimmer..

They know how to draft QB's

203Pat · Dec 11, 2019

Speaking of drafting vs signing receivers this made me laugh.

Deus Irae · Dec 11, 2019

DarrylS said:
when you pick at the end of every round, the pickings a slimmer..

People keep saying this as a defense. It's not really accurate. The only time the "Pickings" are slimmer is in the picks that are missed in the first round. Once you get to a team's first round pick, everything changes. They now, essentially, have the first overall pick an a shortened draft. So the SB champs miss out on picks 1-31, but they then have best chance for pick #32 and beyond, and, absent trades and the like, they have the most picks in the draft.

RobertWeathers · Dec 11, 2019

Deus Irae said:
People keep saying this as a defense. It's not really accurate. The only time the "Pickings" are slimmer is in the picks that are missed in the first round. Once you get to a team's first round pick, everything changes. They now, essentially, have the first overall pick an a shortened draft. So the SB champs miss out on picks 1-31, but they then have best chance for pick #32 and beyond, and, absent trades and the like, they have the most picks in the draft.

No.

Fact: When you pick at the bottom of a draft round and also have picks take away, you do not have the opportunity to pick more physically talented players as those who pick ahead of you until it is your turn again.

Go to a used car lot with 224 cars with 31 of your buddies. You are all auto mechanics. You pick last every round. Once your choices are complete, decide who has the best-running cars.

Do this for 7 years and you can then determine easily who made the best, most productive picks. Some cars run without help. Some need a little TLC. Most likely it'll be the picks that came in the beginning of the draft than later made by the best, most talented mechanics.

203Pat · Dec 11, 2019

robertweathers said:
No.

Fact: When you pick at the bottom of a draft round and also have picks take away, you do not have the opportunity to pick more physically talented players as those who pick ahead of you until it is your turn again.

Go to a used car lot with 224 cars with 31 of your buddies. You are all auto mechanics. You pick last every round. Once your choices are complete, decide who has the best-running cars.

Do this for 7 years and you can then determine easily who made the best, most productive picks. Some cars run without help. Some need a little TLC. Most likely it'll be the picks that came in the beginning of the draft than later made by the best, most talented mechanics.

My thing is more about the better players going right around our late pick.

The 2015 draft we took a very average player in Malcolm Brown. Right after him went Landon Collins, Preston Smith, and Eddie Goldman, a far better DT.

The 2014 draft we took that Gator turd Dominique Easley. Demarcus Lawrence and Joel Bitonio went a few picks later.

Last year we took future bust Sony Michel and right after him Will Hernandez, Darius Leonard, and the guy we should've taken Nick Chubb.

I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that but we have had some bad drafts lately and you cant blame it on drafting late in the round when there are good players going in the same area.

RobertWeathers · Dec 11, 2019

203Pat said:
My thing is more about the better players going right around our late pick.

The 2015 draft we took a very average player in Malcolm Brown. Right after him went Landon Collins, Preston Smith, and Eddie Goldman, a far better DT.

The 2014 draft we took that Gator turd Dominique Easley. Demarcus Lawrence and Joel Bitonio went a few picks later.

Last year we took future bust Sony Michel and right after him Will Hernandez, Darius Leonard, and the guy we should've taken Nick Chubb.

I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that but we have had some bad drafts lately and you cant blame it on drafting late in the round when there are good players going in the same area.

I hate the, "We should have taken X player instead of Y player." I'm not touching it. Bill misses on picks. So do the Browns, Colts, Ravens and the other 28 teams.

My point to idiot Deus was there is a simple reason better/more physically talented players are unavailable to teams picking at the bottom of the draft.

Patriot Missile · Dec 11, 2019

I can see how someone might be upset that we passed on some of these all pros’-phenoms.

However this whole exercise is a wast of time without breaking down every other team and putting it out there to compare results. I guarantee you I can dissect ANY team in the NFL’s draft over a period of time and come up with dirt. Why did the Raven’s pass on this guy?

The way this thread reads is basically the Pats are a bunch of failures and have no business drafting when the f

$&ing truth is they pick 28-32 almost every year, which means magically they pick in the bottom of the draft.

Look at their first round picks which are always late and I’d be willing to bet their hit rate is better than a lot of teams that are picking top 10.

rounds 3-7 start to become a crap shoot and They are pretty successful there too, where they are on even footing with the other teams.

Like I said total bs to single out a team without breaking down every other team’s steals, hits, misses and busts over the same period.

203Pat · Dec 11, 2019

robertweathers said:
I hate the, "We should have taken X player instead of Y player." I'm not touching it. Bill misses on picks. So do the Browns, Colts, Ravens and the other 28 teams.

My point to idiot Deus was there is a simple reason better/more physically talented players are unavailable to teams picking at the bottom of the draft.

And that was what I was speaking to. The blue chip guys are not going to be there but there are still great players available and lately we have struggled in the late first round.

ctpatsfan1 · Dec 11, 2019

Count me in the camp that this whole exercise is a waste of time, especially based on BB's record over the last 6 years. The draft is a crap shoot at best and there at best a handful of guarantees every year. To suggest other teams draft better or have better GM's is to completely fail to see what really matters in this league and that is winning games. No team/coach/GM has the record BB does over the last 6 years or last 19 seasons for that matter, so he must be doing something right when it comes to drafting. Does he hit on all the picks, no, then again neither does any other GM. Until he starts losing because the team lacks talent to compete I'll give him a pass on missing a few players in the draft.

Chris Stevenson · Dec 11, 2019

VJCPatriot said:
I'm going to go over the Patriots drafts over the past 5 years and state what players are still with the Patriots and in an active role.

2019 draft class 10 picks
WR N'Keal Harry, DE Chase Winowich, P Bailey, QB Stidham. Active.
CB Joejuan Williams, RB Harris, OL Froholdt. Inactive/IR.

2018 draft class 9 picks
OL Isaiah Wynn, RB Sony Michel, LB Bentley, TE Izzo

2017 draft class 4 picks
DL Deatrich Wise

2016 draft class 9 picks
OL Joe Thuney, OL Ted Karras, LB Elandon Roberts

2015 draft class 12 picks
OL Shaq Mason, LS Joe Cardona

2014 draft class 9 picks
RB James White

Looking back, the draft years of 2017, 2015, and 2014 look especially bare as the Patriots were 1/4, 2/12, and 1/9 respectively in drafting players who could even stick to the roster.

2019 class. The Patriots already have made some notable misses in terms of WR. Harry has not looked good, but he's a rookie coming off injury. Joejuan Williams is essentially a healthy scratch or DNP each game, and Harris is on IR.

2018 class. Do we really need to go over Chubb vs Michel. This issue is only so agonizing because Michel is having his worst year while Chubb is among the league leaders. It painfully brings to mind Giannis Antetokounmpo vs Kelly Olynyk draft decision by the Celtics.

The Pats have always managed to do more with less. But the cupboards look extremely bare right now on offense. We never got a bona fide tight end replacement, and Izzo is not the answer there. Our WRs outside of Edelman, whom we drafted 10 years ago have no clue how to properly get open and run the offense.

The Pats are particularly adept at trading for players to patch holes, but this year seems to have been the rare miss, Sanu for a 2nd rounder does not remind us of Welker for the same bounty. Who pays the price, Tom Brady, our offense, and our hopes of playoff advancement.

We are now finally paying the price for poor drafting over the past 5 years. Our rate of success was very low from 2017-2014. I count us only hitting on 1 pick per draft. Hmm does a long snapper count? I guess they do, so that's 2 in 2015.

And the past 2 years the players we picked up look nothing special. In fact one can argue that the punter was the best pick of the lot, which means you're in serious trouble.

EDIT: I was wrong Jordan Richards is finally out. What a horrible 2nd round reach he was.
Added Ted Karras and Elandon Roberts to 2016 class. They are only 2nd stringers but provide depth. Unfortunately if they are called upon to start, then we're in trouble.
Added LS Joe Cardona to 2015 class.

Why do you just focus on drafting to talk about team building? I happen to think the drafts have been pretty good. Also, if BB is using draft picks to teambuild because he doesn't like certain drafts, and he hits, those are wins. So, you have to count the collateral spent for draft picks as intended ways to help the quality of the team.

Next, with the Rookie Cap, outside of a 1st rd pick where the money is still fairly significant compared to Rds 2 and beyond, who cares what rd he gets the good player in? Pre 2011, it would have REALLY mattered, but now, not so much.

And, lastly, UDFA hits are legendary from BB.

I am not seeing where the premise matches the results.

Chris Stevenson · Dec 11, 2019

Ice_Ice_Brady said:
Overall drafting has been very good. I had concerns about this in the 2018 offseason, but a lot of players have come through since then. Also you can add Malcolm Butler, JC Jackson, Jonathan Jones, David Andrews and Jakobi Meyers. Drafted or not, they were obtained during the draft process as rookies.

Failure to develop skill players for years and years is the real problem and no need to overanalyze.

With the exception of Malcolm Mitchell (who had injury concerns and whose early exit wasn’t shocking), the failure to draft a long-term receiver in TEN years is a huge problem. Edelman - who basically didn’t even pan out until his extension, and before that Branch and Patton way, way back in the early 2000s, are three players in almost TWENTY years they’ve obtained via draft. The team has had to rely on veteran free agents, which is risky on a year-to-year basis, like Russian Roulette.

Tight end is a head scratcher. They haven’t even drafted anyone there with any potential since 2010. They don’t need another Gronk but just someone who is adequate. I can’t believe they haven’t seen a single TE they’ve liked at all in all this time. This is a team that used first round picks on Watson and Graham. Kind of baffling.

What's even more baffling is having the best RB group in the conference (quality and depth) to the point Damien Harris (I think he will be good here), can't even get a whiff, and our HOF QB refuses to use a 2 back set, what SHOULD be the strength of the team on offense at this point of the season.

I've never seen a more balanced/talented RB group with experience and a varied batch of skills in the bag, buried to this degree when there is nary an injury to be seen anywhere.

Someone needs to show Brady of how Montana used Roger Craig and Wendell Tyler in 1984, and it's not like old man Francis was in his prime in 1984 at TE either.

Chris Stevenson · Dec 11, 2019

ctpatsfan1 said:
Count me in the camp that this whole exercise is a waste of time, especially based on BB's record over the last 6 years. The draft is a crap shoot at best and there at best a handful of guarantees every year. To suggest other teams draft better or have better GM's is to completely fail to see what really matters in this league and that is winning games. No team/coach/GM has the record BB does over the last 6 years or last 19 seasons for that matter, so he must be doing something right when it comes to drafting. Does he hit on all the picks, no, then again neither does any other GM. Until he starts losing because the team lacks talent to compete I'll give him a pass on missing a few players in the draft.

This discussion seems to bubble up every year at a time where Brady himself is struggling, as a way to deflect away from that.

Apparently, Scarnecchia sucks and is senile, BB sucks, the exact same players (minus the Center in Andrews) all magically suck even though they've played in the last 3 SBs.

It's very clearly more than just these kinds of statements made by some fans that either refuse to have Brady be held a little bit accountable for any of the inconsistencies on offense or just ugly play on offense.

It used to be "we have no D! Fire senile BB!" when the whole thing was set up to cater to offense and Brady first.

Now, with the D so great, these same people can't claim it's the D anymore.

And, lastly, I am not going to accept that Cordarelle Patterson and Chris Hogan are better than Sanu/Dorsett/1st rd pick Harry and a good looking UDFA prospect in Meyers.

Sorry, not buying that.

203Pat · Dec 11, 2019

In the end of the day Brady and Bill's coaching cover up a lot of the bad picks.

IllegalContact · Dec 11, 2019

robertweathers said:
I hate the, "We should have taken X player instead of Y player." I'm not touching it. Bill misses on picks. So do the Browns, Colts, Ravens and the other 28 teams.

My point to idiot Deus was there is a simple reason better/more physically talented players are unavailable to teams picking at the bottom of the draft.

you just can't argue with 20/20 hindsight........anyone who shows up and makes mock drafts on the draft board are always >90% wrong.......

the last time I was right about anything was predicting the Logan Mankins pick.

That said, I can tell you prefectly well who is better AFTER they play in the NFL.

BradyFTW! · Dec 11, 2019

PatsDynastyX2 said:
What's even more baffling is having the best RB group in the conference (quality and depth) to the point Damien Harris (I think he will be good here), can't even get a whiff, and our HOF QB refuses to use a 2 back set, what SHOULD be the strength of the team on offense at this point of the season.

I've never seen a more balanced/talented RB group with experience and a varied batch of skills in the bag, buried to this degree when there is nary an injury to be seen anywhere.

What on earth makes you think we have the best RB group (quality and depth) in the conference? I can come up with 5 AFC teams whose RBs are better off the top of my head without even really thinking about it, and I don't even hate our RBs like some here do.

Poor drafting now biting the Patriots in the butt?

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