The Quandry at the ILB position: An Analysis

[signbabybrady]

For the sake of simplicity,let's identify the linebackers by LEFT-OLB,ILB and Right-OLB,ILB.

Did you just say for simplicity reasons we should identify the linebackers as left outside linbacker inside linebacker and right outside linebacker inside linebacker?

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: The Quandry at the ILB position:An Analysis

I didn't like it either,but,that isn't what I was watching.I was watching the LB's and safeties,keying on down and distance substitutions.

I paid particular interest to Woods and Crable at OLB and how they set the edge.
Woods moved to ROLB,this game,and was not nearly as effective as the previous game at LOLB.

I was excited to see some blitz packages with the 2nd and 3rd stringers in the 2nd half.The Pats showed none of this with the starters out there.

Barely watched the offense,except for the OL.
The iggles were bringing CB's and everyone on their blitzes,but,Josh Mcdaniel wouldn't take the bait and played this pretty straight-up.

Tackling was poor again.Redd looked a little mentally overwhelmed at ILB.Wheatley
looked a little lost in the 2nd half.I attribute this to playing with more scrubs on defense.

I tried to watch Slater at safety.This is difficult because of the LOS camera angles on TV.He seemed to be fast and assertive and did not look out of place at FS.

I didn't like that Woods got sealed on an outside run that went well into the secondary. If he's to rotate with Thomas and Vrabel, he has to get off those blocks. OTOH, the Eagles have a huge line and Tra Thomas was manhandling everyone. So I attribute his struggles to the quality of competition, not his position.

I've watched the game to within the 4 minutes of the end of the 1st half. Haven't seen yet the stunning STs play. Glad to hear Slater is looking good at least against scrubs. If Meriweather is hurt, it gets slow back there at safety. Be nice to have some fast backup. Is Spann fast?

 

[italia44]

Did you just say for simplicity reasons we should identify the linebackers as left outside linbacker inside linebacker and right outside linebacker inside linebacker?

yes...to avoid the confusion of sam(SILB) and
will(WILB)

 

[italia44]

Re: The Quandry at the ILB position:An Analysis

I didn't like that Woods got sealed on an outside run that went well into the secondary. If he's to rotate with Thomas and Vrabel, he has to get off those blocks. OTOH, the Eagles have a huge line and Tra Thomas was manhandling everyone. So I attribute his struggles to the quality of competition, not his position.



I've watched the game to within the 4 minutes of the end of the 1st half. Haven't seen yet the stunning STs play. Glad to hear Slater is looking good at least against scrubs. If Meriweather is hurt, it gets slow back there at safety. Be nice to have some fast backup. Is Spann fast?

Yea,Their OT's are friggin' huge.
Woods just seemed to forget what his primary resp.was...set the edge.He seemed to seal himself off by keying off the LT.
Crable was much better at LOLB,by staying straight-up and holding off the blocker with his long reach.
Crable also showed some impressive upper-body strength,by easily shedding the blocker.

I wouldn't call Spann speedy,but he's fast enough for a FS.He's faster than James Sanders,but IMO,I want my FS to be a superior tackler,first....last line of defense.

 

[pats_premi]

I think Redd and Alexander will make 53 man roster.

According to Mike Reiss, Alexander is in all of the first ST groups and on passing downs he appears to be ahead other backup LBs (Guyton, Redd, Hobson). I think Alexender's main competition is Guyton, but Guyton has dis-appeared in the last two pre-season games.

Redd appears to be lining up at multiple positions (OLD, ILB and DE?) and making some solid plays (not flashy). On the depth chart he appears to be lower than other LB, but his position flexibilty may be appealing to the Patriots.

Ruud and Hobson has not shown anything at this stage.

 

[PatsFan37]

Re: The Quandry at the ILB position:An Analysis

Yea,Their OT's are friggin' huge.
Woods just seemed to forget what his primary resp.was...set the edge.He seemed to seal himself off by keying off the LT.
Crable was much better at LOLB,by staying straight-up and holding off the blocker with his long reach.
Crable also showed some impressive upper-body strength,by easily shedding the blocker.

I wouldn't call Spann speedy,but he's fast enough for a FS.He's faster than James Sanders,but IMO,I want my FS to be a superior tackler,first....last line of defense.

I haven't gotten to that part of the game yet (I don't think). Was Crable playing against their starting OLine?

 

[signbabybrady]

yes...to avoid the confusion of sam(SILB) and
will(WILB)

how about just right inside and left inside and not mention OLB since they are not outside?

 

[italia44]

how about just right inside and left inside and not mention OLB since they are not outside?

because I needed to establish the outside LB's who can play at LILB,but are not suited to play RILB.

for example:Vrabel and A.Thomas

 

[d.finn.patsfan.]

Weighing in on the 3-5-3 formation; The reason you won't find it in any press notes is because people with press passes can't comment on formations the patriots run in training camp. I have seen it quite a bit in games and it'll be interesting to see if Belichick does use it in regular season games, or if its just a pre-season experiment.

 

[JSn]

Weighing in on the 3-5-3 formation; The reason you won't find it in any press notes is because people with press passes can't comment on formations the patriots run in training camp. I have seen it quite a bit in games and it'll be interesting to see if Belichick does use it in regular season games, or if its just a pre-season experiment.

Good point. Hadn't thought of that.

Have we seen the D running that 3-5-3 at full strength (personnel-wise) or at full motivation? I don't think we have at all.

And when Rodney and John start taking turns knocking heads off, this formation COULD be very interesting to watch. May even create another page in an intriguing Patriots history.

I'm also curious though, how well does this set-up flex for the long pass? If the trend of shotguns and consecutive first downs/TD's happens to pick up again, we won't be defending the run all that much. Is the formation still useful against teams in the second half of a game where we have a two TD margin?

 

[italia44]

Good point. Hadn't thought of that.

Have we seen the D running that 3-5-3 at full strength (personnel-wise) or at full motivation? I don't think we have at all.

And when Rodney and John start taking turns knocking heads off, this formation COULD be very interesting to watch. May even create another page in an intriguing Patriots history.

I'm also curious though, how well does this set-up flex for the long pass? If the trend of shotguns and consecutive first downs/TD's happens to pick up again, we won't be defending the run all that much. Is the formation still useful against teams in the second half of a game where we have a two TD margin?

This is a 1st and 2nd down defense.On 3rd down Tedy/Hobson/Seau would be removed anyway,as the pats would go into a nickle or dime pkg to combat the long pass.

 

[Box_O_Rocks]

I'm behind in my viewing, I have the Iggle's taped, but have been too busy with the new home to watch it. That said:

I don't see Woods or Redd in an ILB role, Pierre's size is fine (he's Ted Johnson size), but he's been developed as an edge player and I've not seen anything to suggest they're ready to move him inside. Redd looked promising in the first two games playing on the edge - I don't see him making the roster, losing him to a waiver claim would suck, but that's the NFL.

You're looking for someone to play Strong ILB behind Bruschi, that was Adalius' role last season before Colvin went down. Vrabel can also fill in. For that matter Mayo and Guyton could be cross-trained for both inside slots by mid-season. If Crable and Woods continue to develop outside, things aren't so bad.

Alexander is better suited for the 3-5-3 you're projecting, he's an okay coverage LB, he's just not a comfort for us when he's asked to stuff the run.

Hobson, only BB knows. I'm willing to try and find him a roster spot to continue learning the ILB role, he's okay depth outside and on Special Teams - I just think the numbers are going to work against him in the end.

Having a couple-three or so rookies showing up isn't a bad start - it could be worse.

I used the word quandry,because this is not a question of talent,but unbalanced numbers at one ILB position.

For the sake of simplicity,let's identify the linebackers by LEFT-OLB,ILB and Right-OLB,ILB.

So,given this premise the proj.starters are:

LOLB-Vrabel ROLB-Thomas
LILB-Mayo RILB-Bruschi

The subs,before any cuts are:
Woods-OLB
Crable-OLB
Alexander-ILB
Hobson-ILB
Guyton-ILB
Redd-ILB

I'm not counting Izzo,because he's a LB in name only.
6 of these players could play Left-ILB:
Mayo,Vrabel,Thomas,Bruschi,Crable,Woods
5 could play RIGHT-ILB:
Bruschi,Hobson,Alexander,Guyton,Redd

The imbalance I see is at RILB.There isn't much behind Tedy and this is the reason for the Tank,Harrison,Lynch hybrid position.

You can pick up Seau,but he and Tedy are basically the same player.When either of these 2 were in you would still need the hybrid of Harrison/Lynch.

My solution is this:Cut Alexander and Hobson.They just don't bring the athleticism and intelligence needed at RILB.

Keep Guyton at RILB for his speed,while keeping Seau on speed-dial.

Pierre Woods,now becomes the x-factor at RILB.Even though he would be abnormally tall for this position,his speed and tackling ability would fit,IMO.

Harrison and Lynch are what make Woods and Guyton work at RILB.That'e the way I see it.

 

[italia44]

I'm behind in my viewing, I have the Iggle's taped, but have been too busy with the new home to watch it. That said:

I don't see Woods or Redd in an ILB role, Pierre's size is fine (he's Ted Johnson size), but he's been developed as an edge player and I've not seen anything to suggest they're ready to move him inside. Redd looked promising in the first two games playing on the edge - I don't see him making the roster, losing him to a waiver claim would suck, but that's the NFL.

You're looking for someone to play Strong ILB behind Bruschi, that was Adalius' role last season before Colvin went down. Vrabel can also fill in. For that matter Mayo and Guyton could be cross-trained for both inside slots by mid-season. If Crable and Woods continue to develop outside, things aren't so bad.

Alexander is better suited for the 3-5-3 you're projecting, he's an okay coverage LB, he's just not a comfort for us when he's asked to stuff the run.

Hobson, only BB knows. I'm willing to try and find him a roster spot to continue learning the ILB role, he's okay depth outside and on Special Teams - I just think the numbers are going to work against him in the end.

Having a couple-three or so rookies showing up isn't a bad start - it could be worse.

I think this is getting too conveluted.I'm saying Vrabel and Thomas can switch to the STRONG side,where Mayo is now,not Bruschi.Tedy was there when Seau was in the Will position.

The problem is on the weak side.Behind Tedy is Alexander and Hobson.Whoever is on the weak side,BB is using this hybrid or 3-5-3 to compensate and to use as an interior run and pass blitzer.

I'm not proposing Redd,but,Guyton and Woods at this RILB position.We have many options,like Vrabel,Thomas and Tedy at LILB,but,only Guyton or Seau at RILB.

Woods is being wasted as being only a pass rush OLB,we need size and speed at RILB,not on the strong side.

Guyton and Woods are a better option than Alexander and Hobson.This works because of the hybrid position filled by Harrison and Lynch.

Watch the iggles game....you'll see that Bruschi and Mayo are set up closer together than normal in a 3-4 set.The key is the hybrid....this safety is not aligned to the weak side or the strong side,but in the middle,at the head of a triangle.
This allows any of the three,Bruschi,Mayo or
Lynch to attack the interior gap of the offense.

This is a 3-5-3 because all three are aligned as middle LB's.BB is attacking the offense,especially the W.Coast variety in the middle,rather than on the edges,which is normal for a 3-4 defense.

That's what is different and that's why I prefer Guyton and Woods on the inside.

 

[JSn]

I think this is getting too conveluted.I'm saying Vrabel and Thomas can switch to the STRONG side,where Mayo is now,not Bruschi.Tedy was there when Seau was in the Will position.

The problem is on the weak side.Behind Tedy is Alexander and Hobson.Whoever is on the weak side,BB is using this hybrid or 3-5-3 to compensate and to use as an interior run and pass blitzer.

I'm not proposing Redd,but,Guyton and Woods at this RILB position.We have many options,like Vrabel,Thomas and Tedy at LILB,but,only Guyton or Seau at RILB.

Woods is being wasted as being only a pass rush OLB,we need size and speed at RILB,not on the strong side.

Guyton and Woods are a better option than Alexander and Hobson.This works because of the hybrid position filled by Harrison and Lynch.

Watch the iggles game....you'll see that Bruschi and Mayo are set up closer together than normal in a 3-4 set.The key is the hybrid....this safety is not aligned to the weak side or the strong side,but in the middle,at the head of a triangle.
This allows any of the three,Bruschi,Mayo or
Lynch to attack the interior gap of the offense.

This is a 3-5-3 because all three are aligned as middle LB's.BB is attacking the offense,especially the W.Coast variety in the middle,rather than on the edges,which is normal for a 3-4 defense.

That's what is different and that's why I prefer Guyton and Woods on the inside.

Italia, you're one of those poster's I always read. Great insights.

For the reasons cited above and the odds of seeing this formation a lot, I think Alexander disappears from the mix. I sure hope Guyton is a lock for the 53. These set-ups will tear O-Lines up at their strongest point, which will be amazing to watch if it clicks. I think if it disguises well, it could also lead to a good number of sacks in PAP's. Does that make sense?

 

[italia44]

Italia, you're one of those poster's I always read. Great insights.

For the reasons cited above and the odds of seeing this formation a lot, I think Alexander disappears from the mix. I sure hope Guyton is a lock for the 53. These set-ups will tear O-Lines up at their strongest point, which will be amazing to watch if it clicks. I think if it disguises well, it could also lead to a good number of sacks in PAP's. Does that make sense?

It does to me......I'm convinced that BB wants to attack from the inside.Off. Cood. have figured out the 3-4.We attack from the edges with our OLB's and this gets you sacks,but as BB has always said:
"It's not sacks,but pressure that is more important".

 

[JMarr]

Haven't read this entire thread, but the hybrid LB/3-5-3 (whatever you want to call it) experiment is just that--nothing more than something BB is dabbling with to see how it might work out/evolve. He is not committed to it by any means, regardless of the Tank Williams and John Lynch signings IMO

Tank Williams was a good offseason signing and solid acquisition for the defense. Lynch was signed only after Johnson went down AND Merriweather to hurt, and added much needed veteran depth and insurance at safety. (How incredibly f**ed would we have been if Rodney got hurt and Merriweather was slow coming back without a guy like Lynch on the roster?)

If this "novel" defensive scheme were something that BB is putting alot of stock into going into the season, he definitely wouldn't be tipping his hand like this in the preseason so that other teams can prepare to exploit it. Sure, if it works it will be used (rarely would be my guess). But it won't be a staple of the D, unless teams prove to be unable to do anything to counteract it. (not likely)

 

[italia44]

Haven't read this entire thread, but the hybrid LB/3-5-3 (whatever you want to call it) experiment is just that--nothing more than something BB is dabbling with to see how it might work out/evolve. He is not committed to it by any means, regardless of the Tank Williams and John Lynch signings IMO

Tank Williams was a good offseason signing and solid acquisition for the defense. Lynch was signed only after Johnson went down AND Merriweather to hurt, and added much needed veteran depth and insurance at safety. (How incredibly f**ed would we have been if Rodney got hurt and Merriweather was slow coming back without a guy like Lynch on the roster?)

If this "novel" defensive scheme were something that BB is putting alot of stock into going into the season, he definitely wouldn't be tipping his hand like this in the preseason so that other teams can prepare to exploit it. Sure, if it works it will be used (rarely would be my guess). But it won't be a staple of the D, unless teams prove to be unable to do anything to counteract it. (not likely)

Well,I strongly disagree.This is not an experiment.When Tank went down,BB immediately replaced him with Lynch.There is no other reason to do this.We don't need Lynch as a Safety>But,we do need him for this hybrid position.

Also,this defense is the ONLY thing we have been using differently in practice and preseason.Everything else has been pure vanilla 3-4.

I'm telling you......when you see a defense on 1st and 2nd down,that has 2 strong safety's and 1 free safety,it's a major change

 

[JMarr]

Well,I strongly disagree.This is not an experiment.When Tank went down,BB immediately replaced him with Lynch.There is no other reason to do this.We don't need Lynch as a Safety>But,we do need him for this hybrid position.

Also,this defense is the ONLY thing we have been using differently in practice and preseason.Everything else has been pure vanilla 3-4.

I'm telling you......when you see a defense on 1st and 2nd down,that has 2 strong safety's and 1 free safety,it's a major change

True--my bad. But I really think that if Belichick is planning on this being regularly thrown out there, i.e. our "changeup"/secret weapon/new wrinkle--whatever you want to call it, he wouldn't be showing it in games yet.

 

[italia44]

True--my bad. But I really think that if Belichick is planning on this being regularly thrown out there, i.e. our "changeup"/secret weapon/new wrinkle--whatever you want to call it, he wouldn't be showing it in games yet.

Belichick doesn't care what offense the other team is running.When the 1st string has been out there,he's practicing this defense.
He's not hiding anything..he's just doing what he thinks they need to work on.

Win or lose,he could care less

 

[AzPatsFan]

I'm behind in my viewing, I have the Iggle's taped, but have been too busy with the new home to watch it. That said:

I don't see Woods or Redd in an ILB role, Pierre's size is fine (he's Ted Johnson size), but he's been developed as an edge player and I've not seen anything to suggest they're ready to move him inside. Redd looked promising in the first two games playing on the edge - I don't see him making the roster, losing him to a waiver claim would suck, but that's the NFL.

You're looking for someone to play Strong ILB behind Bruschi, that was Adalius' role last season before Colvin went down. Vrabel can also fill in. For that matter Mayo and Guyton could be cross-trained for both inside slots by mid-season. If Crable and Woods continue to develop outside, things aren't so bad.

Alexander is better suited for the 3-5-3 you're projecting, he's an okay coverage LB, he's just not a comfort for us when he's asked to stuff the run.

Hobson, only BB knows. I'm willing to try and find him a roster spot to continue learning the ILB role, he's okay depth outside and on Special Teams - I just think the numbers are going to work against him in the end.

Having a couple-three or so rookies showing up isn't a bad start - it could be worse.

This is an interesting discussion. Bruschi has traditionally been a RILB or WILB. But when newcomers appeared over the last few years, he moved over to LILB or SILB on the strongside, where he could call the Defense and formations.

But that hurt Bruschi's play. He isn't a TJ run stuffer; nor big enough for that duty. We lost some of his inside blitzing ability, as that usually comes from the WILB. He lost some zone pass coverage responsibility, where his quick diagnosis skills shined; in exchange for immediate coverage on the TE, and he is too slow for that job.

But Seau would be worse, so Bruschi became the Mike SILB, by default. IMHO, the proper position for Bruschi and Mayo is WILB, (and Guyton too). The idea of adapting Woods to swing inside and outside duty is intriguing. Let him get comfortable as a OLB first.

Next years draft will have lots of big, fast, good, run-stuffing SILB's. BB will get one or two.