Stephon Gilmore - Patriot HoF'er? NFL HoF'er?

[rkarp1]

I think fans can learn something from the BB paying Gilmore instead of Butler, or later letting UDFA JC Jackson leave for 90 million dollars instead of paying him.

You can find players late in the draft, or even in the UDFA ranks, but you don’t pay a premium for anything less than thoroughbred’s. You never want to confuse team success or failure for individual player value.

Bill let Law and Revis walk away
I have always maintained Bill should have signed Jackson before he got to free agency. his last year he as AP2. he was always going to be paid at the highest levels after a season like that. the prior year was the time to extend him.

 

[rkarp1]

Gilmore on Buffalo is a great example of how it’s a team sport and some positions more than others are dependent on other people doing their jobs well.

Oh yeah, and how fans voting for Pro Bowls and the math nerds at PFF don’t really know anything.

you are contradicting yourself
on the 1 hand you are saying Gilmore did not play well in Buff due to the players around him.
on the other hand, you are saying PFF was wrong to grade Gilmore as not playing well.

the stats are pretty clear. he did not play well in Buff at the end of his run there

 

[Wozzy]

Bill let Law and Revis walk away
I have always maintained Bill should have signed Jackson before he got to free agency. his last year he as AP2. he was always going to be paid at the highest levels after a season like that. the prior year was the time to extend him.

Ty Law had one good season left in him, the one right after he left... then he was never the same.

Darelle Revis had one good season left in him, the one right after he left... then he was never the same.

JC Jackson was one of the biggest free agent mistakes in Chargers history... but you think Bill should have paid him. That's why it was foolish when you said it years ago, and continues to be.

JC Jackson, Malcolm Butler... both of these guys were UDFA's, great in Bill's system... exposed outside of it and not worth the money they were paid. Both team regretted paying these guys like 1's... because it was dumb.

 

[Wozzy]

you are contradicting yourself
on the 1 hand you are saying Gilmore did not play well in Buff due to the players around him.
on the other hand, you are saying PFF was wrong to grade Gilmore as not playing well.

Show me where I said Gilmore didn't play well in Buffalo? I was very exact with my words.

the stats are pretty clear. he did not play well in Buff at the end of his run there

PFF said some third string CB on Buffalo had a better grade than Gilmore, the guy manning up every opposing team's top WR.... sounds legit.

I didn't contradict myself at all. I said positions like CB were beholden to the defensive line in front of them. No corner, no matter how good can cover forever as a QB scrambles around and creates time. If the defensive front sucks, it's the defensive backs who look bad. Buffalo's defensive front and overall defense at the end of Gimore's tenure were terrible.

This is like people saying Randy Moss in 2006 was washed up because Andrew Walters was his QB, and Walters as terrible as he was, was probably a tad better than the league worst offensive line blocking for him.

Gilmore, Moss.... they could be on the worst team in the NFL, not producing at the highest level, and still would be the best individual players at their given position.

Learn the game.

 

[rkarp1]

Ty Law had one good season left in him, the one right after he left... then he was never the same.

Darelle Revis had one good season left in him, the one right after he left... then he was never the same.

JC Jackson was one of the biggest free agent mistakes in Chargers history... but you think Bill should have paid him. That's why it was foolish when you said it years ago, and continues to be.

JC Jackson, Malcolm Butler... both of these guys were UDFA's, great in Bill's system... exposed outside of it and not worth the money they were paid. Both team regretted paying these guys like 1's... because it was dumb.

it’s a team sport and some positions more than others are dependent on other people doing their jobs well.

JC Jackson had a significant injury after signing with the Chargers and was never the same.

 

[Wozzy]

it’s a team sport and some positions more than others are dependent on other people doing their jobs well.

JC Jackson had a significant injury after signing with the Chargers and was never the same.

Jackson was getting toasted before he got injured. He was never anything more than a solid rotation CB.

When Gilmore got injured Jackson was never a shutdown CB who could negate opponent’s best WR. He benefitted from having great corners like Gilmore and Jon Jones around him, the defensive front and from Bill’s scheme.

Paying that guy 90 million was absurd… or what I told you at the time. Time proved that.

 

[rkarp1]

Jackson was getting toasted before he got injured. He was never anything more than a solid rotation CB.

When Gilmore got injured Jackson was never a shutdown CB who could negate opponent’s best WR. He benefitted from having great corners like Gilmore and Jon Jones around him, the defensive front and from Bill’s scheme.

Paying that guy 90 million was absurd… or what I told you at the time. Time proved that.

the season Jackson injured, he played only 5 games
the season prior to injury, he was AP2. thats not (1) getting toasted, or (2) a solid rotational CB

I never advocated giving him $90m. ever. what I did advocate for, was getting him resigned before his free agency season (and AP2 season) and the Pats could have had him back for a fraction of that $90m

 

[Rob0729]

Slate
Dev McCourty
Gronk
Adam V
Bill
Hightower

I think those guys are locks, in no order. I expect Gronk to be inducted this year. My opinion, the "fringe" guys are:

James White
Gilly
Moss
Mankins
Welker
Milloy

This is only dynasty guys. Doesn't take in to consideration guys like Julius Adams or Mosi Tatupu.

So there's a 6 year log jam if you agree with my locks. Then you get into the fringe guys, and then you have to kinda stack them in order as well. I think Milloy is probably last on that list. If Moss gets in, then Welker does, and vice versa. Mankins probably gets it, but do you give White more love because he played his whole career here? Is White worthy ?

Gilly probably gets it, but I'm not ready to put him in the first group.

I think Adams and Tatupu will have an uphill challenge to get in. The fact is the number of fans who remember them or even know them dwindle every year. Anyone younger than 40 or so never saw them play. Anyone under 50 was probably too young to remember seeing them play. They deserve to get in, but I don't know if they will get in with the fan vote.

I think everyone else you listed will get in eventually. Not sure if guys like Hightower or Slater get in before some of the guys you have in the B tier. I think Hightower isn't generally considered an A tier because of the position and how he didn't have flashy stats. Plus his injury history and sitting out a year hurts him too. He had trouble staying on the field and that will be a factor in his consideration.

I think Moss will get in before McCourty or Slater just because of their eligibility is still several years off. Moss broke the TD record here. I think that puts him in A tier. And I am not a big Moss fan.

And I don't know if Bill will get in while Kraft is still alive. Hell, I wouldn't be shocked if Jonathan blocks him for a while too. Way too much bad blood still their and Belichick isn't helping his case by taking shots at the Patriots (his girlfriend wearing the T-shirt of the massage parlor in the Kraft scandal, blocking Patriots scouts from certain access to players at UNC). I wouldn't be shocked if Belichick has to wait longer than most of the guys you listed.

I love James White, but I think he is not in the same tier as Gilmore, Moss, Welker, Milloy, Mankins. He may be the best third down back this team ever had, but I don't think he has the emotional support that Kevin Faulk had.

 

[Wozzy]

the season Jackson injured, he played only 5 games
the season prior to injury, he was AP2. thats not (1) getting toasted, or (2) a solid rotational CB

He stunk, like Malcom Butler stunk when the Titans paid him like a #1 then he got exposed and demoted.

I never advocated giving him $90m. ever. what I did advocate for, was getting him resigned before his free agency season (and AP2 season) and the Pats could have had him back for a fraction of that $90m

When Jackson signed his deal you said “BB made a mistake” and should have matched it. When multiple posters pointed out that Jackson wasn’t a shutdown CB, you moved the goalposts to “Bill should have signed him sooner”… like Jackson had no choice in the matter.

Why would he sign a crappy deal when he could wait and parlay his one Pro Bowl into a huge payday. The only thing as foolish as paying him 90 million was your opinion Bill should have matched it.

 

[rkarp1]

He stunk, like Malcom Butler stunk when the Titans paid him like a #1 then he got exposed and demoted.

When Jackson signed his deal you said “BB made a mistake” and should have matched it. When multiple posters pointed out that Jackson wasn’t a shutdown CB, you moved the goalposts to “Bill should have signed him sooner”… like Jackson had no choice in the matter.

Why would he sign a crappy deal when he could wait and parlay his one Pro Bowl into a huge payday. The only thing as foolish as paying him 90 million was your opinion Bill should have matched it.

he didn't sticnk here, in this system. he was an AP2
I always advovated for bringing him back (early)
Bill missed the boat on Jackson
sorry

 

[Wozzy]

he didn't sticnk here, in this system. he was an AP2
I always advovated for bringing him back (early)
Bill missed the boat on Jackson
sorry

When Stephon Gilmore went down with injury Jackson proved to us he wasn’t a shutdown CB. He got lucky to be surrounded by great corners and have a great defense around him. Good player… but never a lockdown corner at any point.

He was never going to sign a contract for less money. A fictional scenario in your addled brain where he would have is based on your biased BB hatred. Signing a solid but unremarkable player while still owning his rights for two more years is a laughable notion.

 

[rkarp1]

When Stephon Gilmore went down with injury Jackson proved to us he wasn’t a shutdown CB. He got lucky to be surrounded by great corners and have a great defense around him. Good player… but never a lockdown corner at any point.

He was never going to sign a contract for less money. A fictional scenario in your addled brain where he would have is based on your biased BB hatred. Signing a solid but unremarkable player while still owning his rights for two more years is a laughable notion.

so Jackson was AP2 because he had other great CB's on the field with him??

 

[Wozzy]

so Jackson was AP2 because he had other great CB's on the field with him??

Playoff level defense around him, BB’s scheme and an already overrated value by voters. He posted decent numbers, no different than the year before, he was not a shutdown corner.

 

[rkarp1]

Playoff level defense around him, BB’s scheme and an already overrated value by voters. He posted decent numbers, no different than the year before, he was not a shutdown corner.

Bill should have offered him 3/$50 to extend early
Bill was often a day late and dollar short on extending players

 

[Wozzy]

Bill should have offered him 3/$50 to extend early
Bill was often a day late and dollar short on extending players

How do you know the Patriots didn’t offer him a contract and he turned it down because he knew he’d earn more as a free agent?

Oh yeah, because you hate Bill, so whatever theoretical fantasy you cook up in your mind that makes him appear worse had to be what happened.

 

[stinkypete]

I’d say no to Canton, CBs are an underrepresented position to begin with, his peak was too short (2 years really), and he is overshadowed by several contemporaries.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

And I don't know if Bill will get in while Kraft is still alive. Hell, I wouldn't be shocked if Jonathan blocks him for a while too. Way too much bad blood still their and Belichick isn't helping his case by taking shots at the Patriots (his girlfriend wearing the T-shirt of the massage parlor in the Kraft scandal, blocking Patriots scouts from certain access to players at UNC). I wouldn't be shocked if Belichick has to wait longer than most of the guys you listed.

Bob attempted to bury the hatchet with Parcells, and I agree with Tuna's induction despite his short tenure and unimpressive overall record. There are just too many vital contributions by him to ignore. Way too many. Not relevant or fair to use Parcells' actions after he left to judge his Patriots credentials. And he tried to stay here at the end, but Bob stormed out of the room.

So, today, Bob has the ability to put things in perspective, and he certainly can for Belichick too. Bob's a fan, not just an owner. And I think Bob is, to some extent, aware that his bed sharing with Goodell damaged his relationships with Belichick and Brady.

I think Adams and Tatupu will have an uphill challenge to get in. The fact is the number of fans who remember them or even know them dwindle every year. Anyone younger than 40 or so never saw them play. Anyone under 50 was probably too young to remember seeing them play.

Adams and Russ Francis suffer from local media's choice to empower clown-nose worthy Ben Dreith just to support their eternal false laughingstock narrative. Both are way more qualified, by their contributions on and off the field, than half the people in the PHOF now. So is Tatupu, who is to this franchise what Tasker is to the Bills. Darryl Stingley and Chuck Fairbanks also belong for obvious reasons.

Kraft is out to lunch with (dis)respect to these men.

They deserve to get in, but I don't know if they will get in with the fan vote.

If they ever made it onto the ballot, I would expect a surprise as with Ray Clayborn.

 

[WhatJustHappened]

Bill should have offered him 3/$50 to extend early
Bill was often a day late and dollar short on extending players

MOST of the guys Bill let go did NOT have great stats after they left AFAIK.
Maybe you can fill that in, be welcome to fkn see it

Thanks

 

[rkarp1]

MOST of the guys Bill let go did NOT have great stats after they left AFAIK.
Maybe you can fill that in, be welcome to fkn see it

Thanks

Chandler Jones says otherwise.
Mankie
AdamV
Thuney
Solder
Folk

 

[Wozzy]

Chandler Jones says otherwise.
Mankie
AdamV
Thuney
Solder
Folk

Free agents and the salary cap also had a say in the matter, I think what matters is how the Patriots kept winning after players left for greener pastures and they kept winning consistently for two decades.

AdamV was leaving to kick in a dome, his choice, he wasn’t changing his mind. It’s the “free” in free agent that escapes you.