Stephon Gilmore - Patriot HoF'er? NFL HoF'er?

[Pape]

Kraft making up for past sins to curry favor with Canton voters.

Parcells not getting into the Pats HoF only mattered to the guys in New England...

Likely the standard to measure who gets a red jacket. Rodney was a team leader both on an off the field. I am not sure Gilly measures up.

Rodney played 10 more regular season games than Gilly, but was here for two more seasons... 9 post season games vs 7 post season games... I would have to say that they were neck in neck in terms of leaving it all on the field, which is where it matters... the benefit Rodney had was playing at the height of the Dynasty years... Gilly? his era was more akin to the decline of the Roman Empire...

All pre-date the Lombardi years, Gray was put in by the Senior Committee in 2019. I doubt Buoniconti makes the cut post-dynasty. He isn't needed now to legitimize the PHoF.

Only because of recency bias

 

[Hugepatsfan]

I think he's got a good case for team HOF. DPOY, SB win and he has two of the more iconic defensive plays with the pass breakup vs. JAX and the game-sealing INT vs. LAR. If you were just making a "dynasty" years highlight reel both those plays probably make it. Well-liked.

The 8 nominees from this past year were...

Julius Adams
Gronk
Hightower
Mankins
Lawyer Milloy
Mosi Tatupu
AdamV
Welker

Outside of those 8, who else would make sense for consideration besides Gilly as they become eligible? Obviously BB and McCourty. James White?

If they keep voting one guy in per year, I don't see how he doesn't eventually get in. Right now it feels like we have a million candidates to choose from but eventually that backlog will clear. Even if it's 10-15 years from now feels eventually Gilly would be an obvious candidate.

EDIT/UPDATE: I forgot Slater, but my point still stands.

 

[Steve102]

You are making a lot of assumptions based on a limited sample size. We do not know if any of your assumptions are true because of the number of people in the Patriots HOF is only like 20-25 at this point.

Gilmore won't be a first ballot Patriots HOFer. But he will get in. In ten years, most of the big names of the Dynasty era will be in the Hall. We will get to the guys who were elite for this team for a short period of time soon enough. There are only so many Bradys, Laws, Bruschis, Browns, Edelmans, etc. I really can't think of anyone from the post Dynasty era so far that will get in other than maybe Maye and Gonzalez assuming their careers go like we hope. Anyone else were during the Dynasty era and just played beyond Brady being here like Slater or McCourty.

Gilmore made a huge impact to this team in the short time he was here. He played a key role in two Super Bowl winning seasons and one Super Bowl losing season. That is good enough to be a Patriots Hall of Famer. Not good enough to be a Pro Football Hall of Famer.

I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest over it, so don't misunderstand my tone. I think we are both making assumptions. The biggest one I see here we cannot know what the next 7-8 years are going to bring. No one would have thought Jules was getting in at the beginning of his career, same for Slate (who I absentmindedly omitted). Slate certainly is getting in. That pushes Gilly back even further. I think @Pape said he's at the Moss level, and I think he is. He's great, and I would celebrate his getting a red or gold jacket, but I am not saying it's a lock.

Of course if he gets into Canton first, then he likely is a lock here.

 

[BennyBledsoe]

Just because it was done with others...and don't get me started on Parcells' election.... doesn't mean it should continue. We have enough players of a better standard now.

 

[Pape]

I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest over it, so don't misunderstand my tone. I think we are both making assumptions. The biggest one I see here we cannot know what the next 7-8 years are going to bring. No one would have thought Jules was getting in at the beginning of his career, same for Slate (who I absentmindedly omitted). Slate certainly is getting in. That pushes Gilly back even further. I think @Pape said he's at the Moss level, and I think he is. He's great, and I would celebrate his getting a red or gold jacket, but I am not saying it's a lock.

Of course if he gets into Canton first, then he likely is a lock here.

below Moss ... the reception Randy Moss received was absolutely stunning...

 

[203Pat]

In my HOF? No but I think there is an outside shot Gilmore makes it. A ring, a couple all-pros, and a DPOY at a position that rarely gets it might be enough to get him in if there is a lean year candidate-wise. This is where I think being a soft spoken guy might hurt his chances. No one will ever convince me that there isn't a bunch of politicking that gets into HOF voting and when a former player works in the media he is often times working directly with voters. Kurt Warner, Tony Dungy, and Jerome Bettis. Hall of Very Good but would never have made the hall of fame if they didn't go straight into the media after retirement.

 

[Steve102]

below Moss ... the reception Randy Moss received was absolutely stunning...

Yup.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

No one would have thought Jules was getting in at the beginning of his career

Just on this point, any player who has a similar story on the current team likely won't be eligible for another 10-15 years.

The dynasty years produced what seemed like an endless stream of obviously viable team HOF candidates but eventually it will end. The events are revenue generating so Kraft isn't going to stop it unless it becomes truly laughable and Gilly wouldn't be laughable at all. It feels close to a lock, IMO, that Gilly gets in eventually.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

In my HOF? No but I think there is an outside shot Gilmore makes it. A ring, a couple all-pros, and a DPOY at a position that rarely gets it might be enough to get him in if there is a lean year candidate-wise. This is where I think being a soft spoken guy might hurt his chances. No one will ever convince me that there isn't a bunch of politicking that gets into HOF voting and when a former player works in the media he is often times working directly with voters. Kurt Warner, Tony Dungy, and Jerome Bettis. Hall of Very Good but would never have made the hall of fame if they didn't go straight into the media after retirement.

Warner, Dungy and Bettis were all obvious HoF candidates, media or not.

 

[Rob0729]

I'm not trying to get into a pissing contest over it, so don't misunderstand my tone. I think we are both making assumptions. The biggest one I see here we cannot know what the next 7-8 years are going to bring. No one would have thought Jules was getting in at the beginning of his career, same for Slate (who I absentmindedly omitted). Slate certainly is getting in. That pushes Gilly back even further. I think @Pape said he's at the Moss level, and I think he is. He's great, and I would celebrate his getting a red or gold jacket, but I am not saying it's a lock.

Of course if he gets into Canton first, then he likely is a lock here.

I am not trying to be antagonistic. I am just stating that there is no way of knowing the reasoning behind a lot of past selections and how it will relate to future selections because the Patriots Hall of Fame relatively new and we have not seen a historical trend.

I expect Moss to eventually get in and I expect Gilmore to eventually get in. I also expect guys like Welker will eventually get in too. I think they are behind the career Patriots and people who spent most of their prime years in NE. With only one player getting in a year, we just haven't gotten to that point yet.

But how many guys are actually left to be put in. The Pats didn't have a lot of guys who were career players playing at an elite or extremely high level. And six years into the post Brady era, you can count guys on one hand who might get in because the Pats have had bad teams for much of those years.

But again I don't think Gilmore will get into Canton. He didn't play at an elite level long enough. His entire career will be judged for Canton, not just the Patriots years.

Again, the Pats went to the Super Bowl two of four years Gilmore was here and won a Super Bowl. He locked down one half of the field over that time. That is pretty huge for the Patriots history. I think that guarantees him a red jacket. Just not a first ballot red jacket.

 

[203Pat]

Warner, Dungy and Bettis were all obvious HoF candidates, media or not.

Kurt Warner basically had 3 great seasons, 1 good season and some absolutely abysmal seasons. When he was great he was as good as anyone but there was no consistency.

Tony Dungy was a great DC but could never get the Bucs over the hump and the minute he leaves Gruden wins a ring. Then he goes to Indy where one of the greatest players to ever play the game is entering his prime and Dungy rode Manning's coattails to his lone Super Bowl win. Dungy never even really improved the defense in Indy outside of the 5 minutes they had with Bob Sanders healthy.

Bettis, to me at least, is maybe the most egregious hall of famer of all time. He averaged less than 4 ypc, was never considered a top 3 back at any point, was never a TD machine the way many RBs in that era were, and by the time the Steelers won a Super Bowl with him he was basically a mascot.

 

[Pape]

In my HOF? No but I think there is an outside shot Gilmore makes it. A ring, a couple all-pros, and a DPOY at a position that rarely gets it might be enough to get him in if there is a lean year candidate-wise. This is where I think being a soft spoken guy might hurt his chances. No one will ever convince me that there isn't a bunch of politicking that gets into HOF voting and when a former player works in the media he is often times working directly with voters. Kurt Warner, Tony Dungy, and Jerome Bettis. Hall of Very Good but would never have made the hall of fame if they didn't go straight into the media after retirement.

bettis was a virtual lock from day 1 of his retirement... don't think his brief 2 or 3 seasons as a broadcaster mattered much... and it certainly hasn't helped Rodney get a Gold Jacket... Gilly isn't a first ballot HoF, but he has a shot ... ymmv on that...

 

[203Pat]

bettis was a virtual lock from day 1 of his retirement... don't think his brief 2 or 3 seasons as a broadcaster mattered much... and it certainly hasn't helped Rodney get a Gold Jacket... Gilly isn't a first ballot HoF, but he has a shot ... ymmv on that...

Something has to be up with Harrison. I don’t know if it is the reputation he had during his career about being dirty or what but if John Lynch and Brian Dawkins are in then Harrison should be too.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Kurt Warner basically had 3 great seasons, 1 good season and some absolutely abysmal seasons. When he was great he was as good as anyone but there was no consistency.

Tony Dungy was a great DC but could never get the Bucs over the hump and the minute he leaves Gruden wins a ring. Then he goes to Indy where one of the greatest players to ever play the game is entering his prime and Dungy rode Manning's coattails to his lone Super Bowl win. Dungy never even really improved the defense in Indy outside of the 5 minutes they had with Bob Sanders healthy.

Bettis, to me at least, is maybe the most egregious hall of famer of all time. He averaged less than 4 ypc, was never considered a top 3 back at any point, was never a TD machine the way many RBs in that era were, and by the time the Steelers won a Super Bowl with him he was basically a mascot.

Fair on the longevity argument for Warner. The 3 year run in STL was iconic though. Multiple SB appearances. Also had the year with Arizona. Also have to look at era. His rise came right after Aikman, Marino, Elway all retired. Manning and Brady were coming into their own. Favre fell off after Holmgren left a bit and missed the playoffs for the first two years of Warner's run. For a while he was arguably THE iconic quarterback. Short run, but it was quite the peak.

Dungy wasn't just a great DC. His pioneered the Tampa 2 defense. That alone has a transformational impact on the game of football. First African American coach to win a super bowl too and I know it's a touchy subject here but the reality is this country has long had an issue with race and football is no different than the rest of the country so people who break barriers and are "firsts" in league history for that means something for the history of the game. 12th best winning percentage of all time. Only one losing season in 13 years. He was very, very accomplished and influential in league history.

Bettis retired top 10 all time in yards and touchdowns. I hear all your criticisms and would agree he's more a longevity/stat accumulation case than peak performance HOFer, but longevity counts too. It also doesn't hurt that "the Bus" was just an iconic player. One of the more memorable backs in history just with how he played and his whole persona.

 

[203Pat]

Fair on the longevity argument for Warner. The 3 year run in STL was iconic though. Multiple SB appearances. Also had the year with Arizona. Also have to look at era. His rise came right after Aikman, Marino, Elway all retired. Manning and Brady were coming into their own. Favre fell off after Holmgren left a bit and missed the playoffs for the first two years of Warner's run. For a while he was arguably THE iconic quarterback. Short run, but it was quite the peak.

Dungy wasn't just a great DC. His pioneered the Tampa 2 defense. That alone has a transformational impact on the game of football. First African American coach to win a super bowl too and I know it's a touchy subject here but the reality is this country has long had an issue with race and football is no different than the rest of the country so people who break barriers and are "firsts" in league history for that means something for the history of the game. 12th best winning percentage of all time. Only one losing season in 13 years. He was very, very accomplished and influential in league history.

Bettis retired top 10 all time in yards and touchdowns. I hear all your criticisms and would agree he's more a longevity/stat accumulation case than peak performance HOFer, but longevity counts too. It also doesn't hurt that "the Bus" was just an iconic player. One of the more memorable backs in history just with how he played and his whole persona.

Dungy I can see your argument for being a pioneer in two areas with the Tampa 2 and being the first black head coach to win a ring being larger contributions to the game than just strictly statistics. For obvious reasons as a Patriots fan I just didn't like the guy but of the three listed here he is the one I would pick.

Bettis to me is peak hall of very good. I think he does get the boost because he played so long and played for a premier franchise at a position that was the centerpiece of the offense in his era. With that being said there were so many better backs over his era (not counting the guys who are in the HOF like Faulk, Martin, and LT) like Priest Holmes, Corey Dillon, Eddie George, Ricky Williams, and Shaun Alexander.

 

[Hugepatsfan]

Dungy I can see your argument for being a pioneer in two areas with the Tampa 2 and being the first black head coach to win a ring being larger contributions to the game than just strictly statistics. For obvious reasons as a Patriots fan I just didn't like the guy but of the three listed here he is the one I would pick.

Bettis to me is peak hall of very good. I think he does get the boost because he played so long and played for a premier franchise at a position that was the centerpiece of the offense in his era. With that being said there were so many better backs over his era (not counting the guys who are in the HOF like Faulk, Martin, and LT) like Priest Holmes, Corey Dillon, Eddie George, Ricky Williams, and Shaun Alexander.

Surprised by the Eddie George mention. His career accolades were OROY, 4 pro bowls, a 2nd team all pro and a first team all pro. He averaged 3.6 yards/carry for his career and only had two seasons ever at 4 or higher (4.1 both times). Bettis' accolades are OROY, 6 pro bowls, 1 first team all pro and a 2nd team all pro. He averaged 3.9 yards/carry for his career. Feels like Eddie George had the same career as Bettis tbh, just 4 less years so not as high on the counting stats which keeps him out of the HOF while Bettis gets in.

Ricky Williams was one of the best talents at the position but his career was just so messy. 2002 was his only pro bowl year. Priest Holmes had one of the craziest 3 year runs so I'd be fine putting him in the HOF for that, tbh. I'd say Corey Dillon is a bit like Eddie George in the comparison to Bettis where he has a similar peak that wasn't HOF level on its own and the longevity/stat accumulation falls short. With him though, you can argue playing in CIN led to that vs. talent but unfortunately that's where he played and where his career was. Shaun Alexander probably should be looked at like Holmes with his peak but IDK, didn't feel the same to me.

 

[Wozzy]

HOF enshrinement has become a mockery, it's a clown show. Politics and insider lobbying have soured the entire process.

Rodney Harrison holds the defensive back record for sacks and was the first NFL player to obtain 30 sacks and 30 interceptions. Harrison participated in four SB's, winning two. He was voted on the 50th anniversary team of two different franchises, but he can't get in the hall because he hit too hard, played until the whistle and didn't hold back. That was the game then, so he is a victim of his time where the game was changing right as he was exiting.

It's garbage... like the Oscars. The Best Picture winners and nominees are almost unwatchable dreck. Voters have fallen in love with the smell of their own farts.

 

[Steve102]

But how many guys are actually left to be put in. The Pats didn't have a lot of guys who were career players playing at an elite or extremely high level.

Slate
Dev McCourty
Gronk
Adam V
Bill
Hightower

I think those guys are locks, in no order. I expect Gronk to be inducted this year. My opinion, the "fringe" guys are:

James White
Gilly
Moss
Mankins
Welker
Milloy

This is only dynasty guys. Doesn't take in to consideration guys like Julius Adams or Mosi Tatupu.

So there's a 6 year log jam if you agree with my locks. Then you get into the fringe guys, and then you have to kinda stack them in order as well. I think Milloy is probably last on that list. If Moss gets in, then Welker does, and vice versa. Mankins probably gets it, but do you give White more love because he played his whole career here? Is White worthy ?

Gilly probably gets it, but I'm not ready to put him in the first group.

 

[203Pat]

Surprised by the Eddie George mention. His career accolades were OROY, 4 pro bowls, a 2nd team all pro and a first team all pro. He averaged 3.6 yards/carry for his career and only had two seasons ever at 4 or higher (4.1 both times). Bettis' accolades are OROY, 6 pro bowls, 1 first team all pro and a 2nd team all pro. He averaged 3.9 yards/carry for his career. Feels like Eddie George had the same career as Bettis tbh, just 4 less years so not as high on the counting stats which keeps him out of the HOF while Bettis gets in.

Ricky Williams was one of the best talents at the position but his career was just so messy. 2002 was his only pro bowl year. Priest Holmes had one of the craziest 3 year runs so I'd be fine putting him in the HOF for that, tbh. I'd say Corey Dillon is a bit like Eddie George in the comparison to Bettis where he has a similar peak that wasn't HOF level on its own and the longevity/stat accumulation falls short. With him though, you can argue playing in CIN led to that vs. talent but unfortunately that's where he played and where his career was. Shaun Alexander probably should be looked at like Holmes with his peak but IDK, didn't feel the same to me.

I guess I kind of view Eddie George in the same ballpark as Bettis. Very good back with some good longevity. I think George didn't get the benefit of splitting carries with guys like Amos Zeroue, Willie Parker, or Duce Staley and probably shaved a season or two off his career.

Shaun Alexander and Priest Holmes should get into the Hall of Fame in my opinion due to the fact that Terrell Davis is in. Both guys had a short peak, but during that peak, you could easily say in any order they were top 3 at the position with LT in the mix.

I think Frank Gore is going to be an interesting candidate for the HOF. Basically, the next generation of running backs version of Jerome Bettis. Never really one of the top guys at his position but had the longevity which brought the stats. Gore retired at 3rd in NFL history in rushing yards and will likely stay in that spot for a while. There are only 2 active backs in the top 50. Derrick Henry at 10 but he looks to be winding down and would still need about 3,000 yards to pass Gore. The other is Saquon Barkley all the way down at 44 and at age 29 he would need to basically double his career rushing yards to pass Gore.

 

[Pape]

Bettis to me is peak hall of very good. I think he does get the boost because he played so long and played for a premier franchise at a position that was the centerpiece of the offense in his era. With that being said there were so many better backs over his era (not counting the guys who are in the HOF like Faulk, Martin, and LT) like Priest Holmes, Corey Dillon, Eddie George, Ricky Williams, and Shaun Alexander.

the one thing about bettis you should not overlook is pittsburgh... the hof voters love the steelers