OT: Josh Simmons steal of draft

[Huckleberry1]

He did alright in pass protection. Not great, not bad. We already knew he was good in run blocking. So I don’t see a reason to be horny or disappointed in him.

He didn’t give up a sack or much pressure but he did get moved around some in pass-pro. The play calling did the line a favor with a lot of running and short passes or scrambles. They didnt call many plays that needed time to develop which would have really been a test for the pass blocking.

You don’t think his run blocking was something to be excited about? He’s an animal. He goes out to flatten his opponent and does it. He’s got things to learn in pass protection, but his run blocking is already excellent. Edelman and Gronk compared him to Mankinscwhen they went to camp, and that’s a HOF caliber player.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Its not hate. Why does everyone onthis board think that pointing out factual limitations is “hate”

He is not Jonathan Ogden or Anthony Munoz ( or Josh Simmons LOL) OK?

That is not “hate”
Most rookie LTs will not be perfect in all phases. He is just not a generational talent

Because you have an agenda, and have had one all along. You had never even seen any of those guys play until you saw Campbell last night. Beyond that your” analysis” is ignorant” , and limited to one idiotic talking point, his arms are a 1/3 of an inch shorter than desired.Big ****ing deal, he’s 6’6, 320, and in the top 1% of all tackles to come out since 1985. He was the consensus #1 tackle all season, and went first among them. The Patriots love the kid, and he has the attitude, ability, and work ethic to become great. I would bet my house that when the Bledsoe/Brady debate took place you were 110% for Bledsoe, the $100 million man, and not for the career backup 6th rounder.

 

[Grogan14]

Simmons would have been a major risk as a top 10 pick with that patella injury. Everyone had him in the 20's, and sure enough he ended up 32nd - every team passed on him until KC at 32. We'll see how things turn out - if he stays healthy and becomes an all-pro then all the doctors were wrong.

A trade down to 15-20 would have put Simmons in play and allowed for lots more draft capital in the 26 draft

 

[Crazy Patriot Guy]

A trade down to 15-20 would have put Simmons in play and allowed for lots more draft capital in the 26 draft

Did you happen to watch the draft? After the Jaguars moved up to #2 for Travis Hunter, there was zero trades until the Giants moved up to #25 for Jaxson Dart.

So in your trade down scenario, who is moving up and why?

 

[hornetfb85]

Would like to know what type of trade you would expect to go from 4 to 20. That is a massive drop down.

 

[imahobgoblin]

A trade down to 15-20 would have put Simmons in play and allowed for lots more draft capital in the 26 draft

Just shut up already and go back to the Jets forum. You suck.

 

[imahobgoblin]

Did you happen to watch the draft? After the Jaguars moved up to #2 for Travis Hunter, there was zero trades until the Giants moved up to #25 for Jaxson Dart.

So in your trade down scenario, who is moving up and why?

No he does not watch anything. He is locked away in the recesses of his own mind far away from reality.

 

[patfanken]

Its not hate. Why does everyone onthis board think that pointing out factual limitations is “hate”

He is not Jonathan Ogden or Anthony Munoz ( or Josh Simmons LOL) OK?

That is not “hate”
Most rookie LTs will not be perfect in all phases. He is just not a generational talent

Right on the money with this one, Sam. He likely is NOT the kind of "generational' talent you want to find when draft as high as #4. We simply got unlucky to be bad when the high-end talent was very thin at the top of the draft.

One thing we do know from experience is that good, very good, great, and exceptional player will be found all throughout this draft when this class is tallied 10 years from now.

But we live in the now and what do we know about Campbell now. We really know nothing about what he will eventually be when he hits 90% of his ceiling in 3 or 4 years and he enters his prime. Zero,

All we know now is this:

He is an exceptional athlete for his size.

He is a hard worker who is more likely to use all the questions about him to fuel him.

I am sure he knows all about his physical limitations and like so many before him will do whatever he has to do to maximize his playing potential... JUST like a lot of great players have had to do. We just erected a statue to one of them.

He currently looks like he will be and excellent run blocker. Strong at the point of attack and exceptional at the 2nd level. And he certainly has room to get better.

Even "generational" OLmen give up sacks pressures and commit penalties, etc. Campbell will do so as well and more early in his career.

If all he ends up being THIS year is a good solid starting LT in this league, I'm fine with that regardless of the pick. But that's because that is not all he might end up being down the road. Is he a bust if he ends up with multiple pro bowls and a few all pro seasons

BTW- I think it is going to be a LOT of fun this season carping at KC and Jet fans about their respective OT's even though we have the highest bar

I think I am going to spend some time to do a better job at learning the mechanics of pass blocking at the NFL level. I'm having a problem trying to figure out just how a couple of inches of arm length can seemly doom a player's career at the OT position while it's perfectly fine for a G. Dante doesn't seem to get it either so maybe I'm in good company, but I'm still willing to learn. So if you have some links I might find interesting, I'd appreciate a PM or just add them to the thread. I think others might find them interesting too, since we spend so much damned time talking about the topic.

 

[PWRxWLF]

Right on the money with this one, Sam. He likely is NOT the kind of "generational' talent you want to find when draft as high as #4. We simply got unlucky to be bad when the high-end talent was very thin at the top of the draft.

One thing we do know from experience is that good, very good, great, and exceptional player will be found all throughout this draft when this class is tallied 10 years from now.

But we live in the now and what do we know about Campbell now. We really know nothing about what he will eventually be when he hits 90% of his ceiling in 3 or 4 years and he enters his prime. Zero,

All we know now is this:

He is an exceptional athlete for his size.

He is a hard worker who is more likely to use all the questions about him to fuel him.

I am sure he knows all about his physical limitations and like so many before him will do whatever he has to do to maximize his playing potential... JUST like a lot of great players have had to do. We just erected a statue to one of them.

He currently looks like he will be and excellent run blocker. Strong at the point of attack and exceptional at the 2nd level. And he certainly has room to get better.

Even "generational" OLmen give up sacks pressures and commit penalties, etc. Campbell will do so as well and more early in his career.

If all he ends up being THIS year is a good solid starting LT in this league, I'm fine with that regardless of the pick. But that's because that is not all he might end up being down the road. Is he a bust if he ends up with multiple pro bowls and a few all pro seasons

BTW- I think it is going to be a LOT of fun this season carping at KC and Jet fans about their respective OT's even though we have the highest bar

I think I am going to spend some time to do a better job at learning the mechanics of pass blocking at the NFL level. I'm having a problem trying to figure out just how a couple of inches of arm length can seemly doom a player's career at the OT position while it's perfectly fine for a G. Dante doesn't seem to get it either so maybe I'm in good company, but I'm still willing to learn. So if you have some links I might find interesting, I'd appreciate a PM or just add them to the thread. I think others might find them interesting too, since we spend so much damned time talking about the topic.

Not X’s and O’s but a good article.

No absolutes: A lesson on o-line arm length with Dante Scarnecchia

Are Will Campbell's undersized arms a red flag? Phil Perry turned to coaching legend Dante Scarnecchia for an in-depth breakdown of arm length and its imapct.

www.nbcsportsboston.com

 

[mgteich]

Did you happen to watch the draft? After the Jaguars moved up to #2 for Travis Hunter, there was zero trades until the Giants moved up to #25 for Jaxson Dart.

So in your trade down scenario, who is moving up and why?

Many of us wanted Campbell.

Many of us wanted us to move down to 8- 10 or so and pick the BTA.

Many of us wanted us to move down to 15-10 and draft a franchise OT.
==============
As time went on, many switched from Plan 2 to Plan 1 when no trade seemed likely.

No one outside of the staff knows how hard we tried to trade and what, if anything, we were offered.
==========
In the end, most of us celebrated the fact that we likely got the best LT in the draft, and at least our 2025 LT starter.

 

[sb1]

Simmons looked good. Still think with his knee he is a high risk high reward pick the Patriots should not be making in this stage of the rebuild but the Chiefs can. The Pats window is not open yet so I’d rather see them not take those risks.

This is nowhere near the whiff on Polk over McConkey. Campbell is good and I expect him to improve. They’ll be fine.

 

[Huckleberry1]

As much as I love the draft what ends up getting overlooked, and is the most important factor imo, is how good a prospect is at playing football, and as a fan base Patriot fans should understand this better than any others.

Tom Brady was right on his draft weekend. He sat there for days waiting for his name to be called, and he knew, and his college performance backed this up, that he was a better quarterback than any of the 6 who were drafted before him. However he was one of the worst Combine performers in the history of that event, with a pathetic 2.74 RAS score. But Brady knew that he knew how to run an offense and play football better than any of them. He also understood the amount of knowledge, practice, and dedication it would take to become great, and that it wasn’t what you came in as that mattered most, but what you made yourself into that would really count. Unfortunately for many prospects they believe the hype they have gotten as stars at their various schools and levels of play as amateurs, and believe they have already made it when their name is called, when in truth that’s just the beginning of the road. It’s the players who really understand this, and come into the Pro’s knowing they are going to have to work their asses off constantly throughout their careers who end up being the greatest contributors and players. Brady is the greatest example of this, but far from alone. Tedy Bruschi came in as an undersized defensive end, and was far from the prototype to convert to a middle linebacker, but made that switch and ended up using his uncanny instincts for what the play was, and where the ball was going to turn himself into a great middle linebacker and core piece of their first Dynasty, the one that brought them 3 rings. Kevin Faulk came in as an undersized running back and had serious fumbling issues, but worked hard to overcome those obstacles and ended up not only being a critical part of moving the chains in their offense, but also the leader in their running back room, and a team leader for that aforementioned Dynasty. Matt Light, a second round pick out of Purdue, who unfortunately was also believed to have “ arms too short” but became a rock on Brady’s blind side was another guy whose knowledge of the game and football instincts turned him into one of their most reliable players. Richard Seymour was trashed by local media and fans as a wasted pick, when it should have been David Terrell, because he only had 6 sacks in his college career, but ended up showing the local media, and fans who screamed for a WR that he was the best football player they could have gotten, and went on to a Hall of Fame career.

I could go on about this ad nauseum but my dog really wants to go out. My point is this, being a great football player matters more than just the metrics. It requires football knowledge, a great attitude, instincts developed over their career to recognize situations and respond the right way to them, and the athletic ability to get your job done. Some positions require more athletic ability than others, but all require dedication and hard work. So rather than fixating on 1/3 of an inch in arm length take all considerations into account, then judge them on how hard they play, and how they play. And realize that this rookie class is just starting out, not finished products, and give them the chance to turn themselves into NFL players, as that takes time and effort, and almost never happens overnight.

 

[mayoclinic]

A trade down to 15-20 would have put Simmons in play and allowed for lots more draft capital in the 26 draft

100% agree. Unfortunately, other teams weren't cooperating. No trade partner, no trade.

Right now, Campbell looks like he'll develop into a 10 year starter of some kind, whether at tackle or guard. Not that shabby. Give him time.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

This is nowhere near the whiff on Polk over McConkey. Campbell is good and I expect him to improve. They’ll be fine.

The trade was Polk and Baker for McConkey. Still a huge whiff.

I was almost always in favor of trading down for more picks but at some point the talent drops off so trading down is a mistake. McConkey is an example. The Pats had offers to trade down for the Henderson pick and took the pick instead of trading.

 

[Dec54]

A trade down to 15-20 would have put Simmons in play and allowed for lots more draft capital in the 26 draft

Give it a rest won't you. You don't half spout some drivel and that is a FACT.

 

[Dec54]

As much as I love the draft what ends up getting overlooked, and is the most important factor imo, is how good a prospect is at playing football, and as a fan base Patriot fans should understand this better than any others.

Tom Brady was right on his draft weekend. He sat there for days waiting for his name to be called, and he knew, and his college performance backed this up, that he was a better quarterback than any of the 6 who were drafted before him. However he was one of the worst Combine performers in the history of that event, with a pathetic 2.74 RAS score. But Brady knew that he knew how to run an offense and play football better than any of them. He also understood the amount of knowledge, practice, and dedication it would take to become great, and that it wasn’t what you came in as that mattered most, but what you made yourself into that would really count. Unfortunately for many prospects they believe the hype they have gotten as stars at their various schools and levels of play as amateurs, and believe they have already made it when their name is called, when in truth that’s just the beginning of the road. It’s the players who really understand this, and come into the Pro’s knowing they are going to have to work their asses off constantly throughout their careers who end up being the greatest contributors and players. Brady is the greatest example of this, but far from alone. Tedy Bruschi came in as an undersized defensive end, and was far from the prototype to convert to a middle linebacker, but made that switch and ended up using his uncanny instincts for what the play was, and where the ball was going to turn himself into a great middle linebacker and core piece of their first Dynasty, the one that brought them 3 rings. Kevin Faulk came in as an undersized running back and had serious fumbling issues, but worked hard to overcome those obstacles and ended up not only being a critical part of moving the chains in their offense, but also the leader in their running back room, and a team leader for that aforementioned Dynasty. Matt Light, a second round pick out of Purdue, who unfortunately was also believed to have “ arms too short” but became a rock on Brady’s blind side was another guy whose knowledge of the game and football instincts turned him into one of their most reliable players. Richard Seymour was trashed by local media and fans as a wasted pick, when it should have been David Terrell, because he only had 6 sacks in his college career, but ended up showing the local media, and fans who screamed for a WR that he was the best football player they could have gotten, and went on to a Hall of Fame career.

I could go on about this ad nauseum but my dog really wants to go out. My point is this, being a great football player matters more than just the metrics. It requires football knowledge, a great attitude, instincts developed over their career to recognize situations and respond the right way to them, and the athletic ability to get your job done. Some positions require more athletic ability than others, but all require dedication and hard work. So rather than fixating on 1/3 of an inch in arm length take all considerations into account, then judge them on how hard they play, and how they play. And realize that this rookie class is just starting out, not finished products, and give them the chance to turn themselves into NFL players, as that takes time and effort, and almost never happens overnight.

Great post as always Huck. Can you teach state and sam how to be produce good posts, their's are always such crap.

 

[Huckleberry1]

Great post as always Huck. Can you teach state and sam how to be produce good posts, their's are always such crap.

I think Sam and State need to learn how to read before they can write, but thanks.

 

[n1997y]

I was almost always in favor of trading down for more picks but at some point the talent drops off so trading down is a mistake.

100% agree. Unfortunately, other teams weren't cooperating. No trade partner, no trade.

That point is something that everyone who advocates trading down in the draft needs to remember. And it’s not just finding a team that wants to trade, but how much they will make it cost.

Folks say we should traded down to get Simmons plus another pick instead of using pick number four on Campbell, would you have traded #4 plus our 2026 first rounder to make that move? Say, for a late first and late second in 2025? You can’t expect to just snap your fingers and have other teams dance your tune.

 

[Grogan14]

Give it a rest won't you. You don't half spout some drivel and that is a FACT.

Calm down. Put me on mute. Too many people on this board telling other people what to do.
If you do not want to read it mute it. I will mute you

 

[mgteich]

Supposedly he looks amazing so far in TC.
This could be another situation like Ladd Mcconkey where its obvious Pats picked the wrong player. Will Campbell will not be in the same top tier as Simmons.

Henderson is the steal of the draft