Who Was Responsible For the 2023 Draft? For the 2024 Draft?

[TheRainMaker]

The reason Bill is not here anymore is because he didn’t bring in enough impact players since Brady left. 2020-2023 drafts were overall terrible.

The 2023 draft had 12 players and almost none of them made an impact that season. You can’t have that as HC trying to keep their job after two 2 losing seasons in 3 years.

The irony is after all these years of drafting CB’s, Bill won’t be here to coach the best one he’s drafted. I look forward to his matchup against Houston’s WR’s.

I want to like Keion White, but he’s really cooled off after teams have tape on him and made adjustments. And I don’t want to hear “double teams” because good players always find a way.

I’ll wait until the end of the year on Mapu, but I haven’t been a fan of his since he was drafted.

Douglas is a good find at WR. I see Maye getting him the ball more.

 

[ViperGTS]

The reason Bill is not here anymore is because he didn’t bring in enough impact players since Brady left. 2020-2023 drafts were overall terrible.

The 2023 draft had 12 players and almost none of them made an impact that season. You can’t have that as HC trying to keep their job after two 2 losing seasons in 3 years.

The irony is after all these years of drafting CB’s, Bill won’t be here to coach the best one he’s drafted. I look forward to his matchup against Houston’s WR’s.

I want to like Keion White, but he’s really cooled off after teams have tape on him and made adjustments. And I don’t want to hear “double teams” because good players always find a way.

I’ll wait until the end of the year on Mapu, but I haven’t been a fan of his since he was drafted.

Douglas is a good find at WR. I see Maye getting him the ball more.

Thats an incorrect statement. How many times did a "great" defensive lineman suck against the Pats for many reason to include that. Almost all of them, whenever they went against a Watt, Taylor, etc etc..especially the ends...they didn't fare too well because they were getting chipped or doubled.

I guess those types of guys weren't good players.

 

[mgteich]

If Bill was judged based on the 2023 Draft, he would have been extended, not fired. There are many reasons to fire Bill, the 2023 Draft was NOT one of them.
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Wolf has 2-3 years to give the team the personnel it needs to be playoff contenders.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Thats an incorrect statement. How many times did a "great" defensive lineman suck against the Pats for many reason to include that. Almost all of them, whenever they went against a Watt, Taylor, etc etc..especially the ends...they didn't fare too well because they were getting chipped or doubled.

I guess those types of guys weren't good players.

They certainly didn't suck and they were also playing against a superior team in the Pats overall - especially when it came to good pass rushers on bad teams.

And using Watt is a bad example as he was one of the best in the game. Who is Keion White?

Are you also referring to Jason Taylor? That guy ate Matt Light's lunch on a regular basis.

 

[Huckleberry1]

What positions should they have taken?

The tackles in that draft have busted.

This year's draft is looking like a huge disappointment. You can't draft at the top of each round and end up with only a top QB and a 2nd

The Gonzalez pick was a great pick. He could end up being a consistent All Pro selection.

 

[Huckleberry1]

This is not true. RK owned the team from 2000 - 2024 and has said publicly that BB did not have complete oversight of the team for significant portions of his tenure.

Some here keep saying that, but no one has provided any proof to back it up. And who is it that had final say over Belichick? I have never seen anything to that effect. I could be wrong, but so far no one has ever shown anything to support these claims. Except Wozzy, who apparently works in the Patriots front office and has first hand knowledge of all of their deliberations.

 

[upstater1]

The reason Bill is not here anymore is because he didn’t bring in enough impact players since Brady left. 2020-2023 drafts were overall terrible.

The 2023 draft had 12 players and almost none of them made an impact that season. You can’t have that as HC trying to keep their job after two 2 losing seasons in 3 years.

The irony is after all these years of drafting CB’s, Bill won’t be here to coach the best one he’s drafted. I look forward to his matchup against Houston’s WR’s.

I want to like Keion White, but he’s really cooled off after teams have tape on him and made adjustments. And I don’t want to hear “double teams” because good players always find a way.

I’ll wait until the end of the year on Mapu, but I haven’t been a fan of his since he was drafted.

Douglas is a good find at WR. I see Maye getting him the ball more.

3 starters in each draft. That's what you want and need. Teams don't do better than that.

If you look back on those drafts, the Patriots fulfilled that in 3 of the 4.

Onwenu, Anfernee, Dugger, Rham, Barmore, Marcus Jones, Strange, Jack Jones a starter but a headcase, Douglas, Sow, Keion White, Gonzalez.

This is not a failure. 13 starters in 4 drafts is par for the course.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Some here keep saying that, but no one has provided any proof to back it up.

The backup has been posted many times. You could use Google. RK spoke about the drafting process changes in about 2020, and when taking questions at the "BB leaving" news conference.

And who is it that had final say over Belichick? I have never seen anything to that effect. I could be wrong, but so far no one has ever shown anything to support these claims. Except Wozzy, who apparently works in the Patriots front office and has first hand knowledge of all of their deliberations.

RK never went into details. We do not know. But RK clearly stated that BB did not have full control at first, maybe up until 2005/2006???. Robert clearly states the drafting management changed in 2020 or so.

 

[upstater1]

Some here keep saying that, but no one has provided any proof to back it up. And who is it that had final say over Belichick? I have never seen anything to that effect. I could be wrong, but so far no one has ever shown anything to support these claims. Except Wozzy, who apparently works in the Patriots front office and has first hand knowledge of all of their deliberations.

It was in all the newspapers. Kraft demanded that Belichick would have to collaborate and bring in more voices in the final decision making. It was a change.

What do you believe that means?

Does it mean Belichick listens to his scouts and personnel people and then overrules them in the end anyway?

How is that different than prior to 2020?

 

[TheRainMaker]

3 starters in each draft. That's what you want and need. Teams don't do better than that.

If you look back on those drafts, the Patriots fulfilled that in 3 of the 4.

Onwenu, Anfernee, Dugger, Rham, Barmore, Marcus Jones, Strange, Jack Jones a starter but a headcase, Douglas, Sow, Keion White, Gonzalez.

This is not a failure. 13 starters in 4 drafts is par for the course.

I'm sorry, but most, if not all of those players don't move the needle for most GM's in the NFL. In fact, it's one of the biggest reason they ended up 4-13 by 2023. Saying they were starters on a losing team is nothing to brag about.

Bill has not drafted one Pro Bowl/All Pro player on offense or defense since Collins in 2013 and Thuney in 2016. That's not going to get it done and it eventually caught up to him. Every GM needs impact players, but Bill didn't have any.

 

[ViperGTS]

They certainly didn't suck and they were also playing against a superior team in the Pats overall - especially when it came to good pass rushers on bad teams.

And using Watt is a bad example as he was one of the best in the game. Who is Keion White?

Are you also referring to Jason Taylor? That guy ate Matt Light's lunch on a regular basis.

Taylor had his moments for sure. But that was a rarity and it wasn't all the time.

 

[upstater1]

I'm sorry, but most, if not all of those players don't move the needle for most GM's in the NFL. In fact, it's one of the biggest reason they ended up 4-13 by 2023. Saying they were starters on a losing team is nothing to brag about.

Bill has not drafted one Pro Bowl/All Pro player on offense or defense since Collins in 2013 and Thuney in 2016. That's not going to get it done and it eventually caught up to him. Every GM needs impact players, but Bill didn't have any.

Cam Newton, Mac Jones, Jacoby Brissett, Bailey Zappe.

This is the NFL. You can't win with these jokers.

In fact, it's miracle that they averaged 7.5 wins a year with these guys.

As for drafting All-Pro caliber players, I'd submit that Barmore and Gonzalez are already there. Onwenu received 22 1st team All-Pro votes as a guard in 2022. Dugger is another player that "moves the needle." Marcus Jones obviously made it as a KR-PR (All-Pro). Keion White is on his way.

The idea that the Patriots don't have any players who move the needle is countered by these 6 players.

QB matters a lot in the NFL. A lot.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

CB = Gonzo, EGDE = White, and WR = Douglas. Three of the top positional needs in any draft. Maybe you don't follow the Pats in the off season?

I said "on day one and two"; Douglas was round 6.

As I've said before, Belichick defended drafting for value by arguing If you draft for need and take the wrong player, you've wasted a pick and still have a need. The problem is that there's another equally valid argument: if you have a need and don't draft someone, you still have a need and it's harder/more expensive to fill.

In Belichick's case, a key problem is that he largely ignored the tackle position for years. The only tackle he drafted in the first three rounds from 2019 to 2023 was Yodny Cajuste, who they knew wouldn't be available much if at all as a rookie. Heck, if he didn't mangle the guard position so badly by letting Mason, Thuney, and Karras leave, he could've stayed at 21 and taken Tyler Smith, who's been a Pro Bowler for Dallas instead of trading down and taking Strange.

 

[upstater1]

I said "on day one and two"; Douglas was round 6.

As I've said before, Belichick defended drafting for value by arguing If you draft for need and take the wrong player, you've wasted a pick and still have a need. The problem is that there's another equally valid argument: if you have a need and don't draft someone, you still have a need and it's harder/more expensive to fill.

In Belichick's case, a key problem is that he largely ignored the tackle position for years. The only tackle he drafted in the first three rounds from 2019 to 2023 was Yodny Cajuste, who they knew wouldn't be available much if at all as a rookie. Heck, if he didn't mangle the guard position so badly by letting Mason, Thuney, and Karras leave, he could've stayed at 21 and taken Tyler Smith, who's been a Pro Bowler for Dallas instead of trading down and taking Strange.

He gave Thuney's money to Mason. That was a mistake. Mason left and showed he as washed up. He almost got Brady killed. Karras was never replacing Andrews and Karras is a horrible guard.

You're right that he failed to find a tackle. But they spent a #1 on Isaiah Wynn who busted. Then they whiffed on finding a tackle in the 22 draft as all 6 tackles were taken before they were set to pick. Tyler Smith panned out but was considered a second rounder, a shock he's this good. On the other hand, look at the top tackles from that draft. 4 busts. It's not so easy at that position.

We've been looking for a tackle for years and are either not in position to pick one or else the guys we were looking at (Broderick Jones) end up busting.

Same thing happened this year by the way. We didn't get our guy, and we REACHED.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

He gave Thuney's money to Mason. That was a mistake. Mason left and showed he as washed up. He almost got Brady killed. Karras was never replacing Andrews and Karras is a horrible guard.

We've been looking for a tackle for years and are either not in position to pick one or else the guys we were looking at (Broderick Jones) end up busting.

Karras has started every game for Cincinnati since he signed there. Jones was benched in one game this season, but has started every game since, so I have to think he'd at least be an upgrade over the status quo.

 

[JohnJH]

Robinson is a stretch. In the few games he played he was poor. Hopefully he can improve.

I would have rather had Braelon Allen in the 4th Round (which I advocated for on here prior to the Draft).

 

[upstater1]

Karras has started every game for Cincinnati since he signed there. Jones was benched in one game this season, but has started every game since, so I have to think he'd at least be an upgrade over the status quo.

At center. Not guard.

Jones has not been playing well at all. Would you trade Gonzalez for him straight up?

 

[JohnJH]

It's to early to really judge 2023 let alone this year in 2024. Some years, you get guys you know need a 'red shirt' year and often rookies get hurt year one as they are just not physically ready to be a pro. Caeden Wallace was likely one of them this year. I laugh when I see comments that this draft was a complete failure in week 3. I saw similar (haters/over-reactors/fools?) say the same in mid-summer!!! Some because the team had the gall to not take their guy. Seems we have a lot of NFL scouts and draft analysts that know better than the team that did the detail research. Overall, this team has a decent amount of talent, but is crippled on the o-line. So many over-react (media including) saying the team is holistically bad and that is way false. Bottom line is, if Maye becomes a top 7-8 QB, this draft was huge. So many teams take decades to find a QB and lose in the interim. Look at the Bills 20 years between Jim Kelly and Allen. Jets since Namath... and we're pissed here in NE given it's been 5 years since a SB trophy.

If Maye becomes a Stud (or reasonable facsimile thereof), Polk becomes a solid #2 WR, and Wallace can become a solid RT, anything else is a bonus. LT and C are MUST needs in the 2025 Draft. We also need talented RB depth, A solid DL to complement Barmore (if he ever comes back), speed at LB, and a #2 CB to go with Gonzo. A legit FS wouldn't hurt. FA is one place where we might be able to address some defensive players (hopefully still in their Mid-20's so they'll be around for awhile). I'd want a clean bill of health for a Tee Higgins if for some reason he actually wants to come here (or any similar receiver). I don't want a WR that is too close to 30.

 

[JohnJH]

If Bill was judged based on the 2023 Draft, he would have been extended, not fired. There are many reasons to fire Bill, the 2023 Draft was NOT one of them.
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Wolf has 2-3 years to give the team the personnel it needs to be playoff contenders.

2-3 years sounds about right to see if Wolf gets to keep his job or not, based on drafting and other personnel decisions.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

Jones has not been playing well at all. Would you trade Gonzalez for him straight up?

Now, no.

A more relevant question is, if I were in BB's shoes in last year's draft, would I take Jones vs. Gonzalez and a fourth-round pick, knowing that the need at tackle is a lot greater? Honestly, I think it's about 50-50 that I would.