PATRIOTS TRAINING CAMP Tuesday Patriots Training Camp Thread 8/13

[FredFromDartmouth]

Those players were here last year.

I agree slightly at QB only because you really can’t get worse, but they can’t close.

If Hooper is better than Gesicki it’s munute.

Year 2 Douglass would compare to year 1 Douglas. “Any two” of guys who were either behind them or never played in the league is just a hope.

Thats the rosiest of pictures of improvement from 4 wins.

I hope I’m wrong. I will be rooting for them to win every game but they haven’t even tried to field the best team they can. I have to be honest.

Choosing not to spend 43,000,000 would be lie trading all your draft picks into next year. Worse in fact because with 43,000,000 you could sign more starters than you had draft picks.

And we no longer have the GOAT coach. He might not have been the GOAT GM, ahem, but I would rather have him on the sidelines than anyone else. You never went into a game worrying that you would be out coached. He had a mystique and aura about him that intimidated other teams even before they stepped on the field, "What sneaky trick was Bill gonna pull on us this time?" He is the one that made other teams try to hide their lips when they talked. He inspired fear and gave some teams such as the Jets an inferiority complex. The Jets laugh at us now...

Four wins seems optimistic. Now if we had a LT like that guy from the Cowboys, then maybe we would be OK.

 

[PatsFan2]

I was all was a for kissing and making up with Trent Brown but got frowned upon by the majority. How we like it now.

 

[KCSVEN]

I’m curious, do you mean to say you have no issue with them “punting on this year”

And if as expected they win 3-4 games this year, why wouldn’t they punt on next year too?

I have issues with them punting on the year, but I understand it and other than the refusal to start Maye I'm not sure they had much choice.

The new regime inherited a terrible offensive roster, they have a hard time enticing free agents and players in trade to come here knowing they look like one of worst teams in the league to them. One option is to overpay players, which to me is a bad choice as you take away from 2025 and 2026 when, IMO, players may actually want to come here. The chose the other option which is resign guys you like, add some mid-tier guys that don't tie up your cap. They then need to hit on 2 drafts in a row.

They are not the Jets with an old QB going for 1 last swan song and a good defense that you are going to have to start spending cap money on. Jets window is 1-2 years MAX, the Pats window starts in 1-2 years. Nobody can argue their approach is different than the Jets would be.

Maye and Wolf get a pass from management in year 1, its BB's fault they left them a crap roster. As long as they are not embarrassing, they keep their jobs, and a top 5 pick next year sets them up for way more chance of success than drafting 12th. Resigning the defensive guys they hope keeps them from being embarrassing,

Personally, I spent 100's of hours looking at the QB prospects, looking back at historical prospects over the years to see what qualities made them flops or stars etc. and concluded Maye is a generational QB prospect. IMO, they play him all year they can't draft top 5 but by the end of the year we would know if my research was correct and that he is a guy that will be talked about as the best QB in the NFL for the next decade, and you can build around that picking at 12 or 2 next year. So I would play him and try to win as much as possible with the rookies playing as much as possible, only sets them up for the 2nd year leap and a promising 2025.

 

[Sicilian]

My response mimicked your snarky response. I even copied your words to make it obvious. I am following your lead.

Fair enough, I apologize.

 

[KCSVEN]

No they don’t.
But at least we agree ownership tanked the season

The CBA rule uses cash spending, so they’re way ahead of pace. OTC says $305M in 2024 cash spending right now, which is 119.4% of the $255.4M cap.

I guess I meant they have to in order to compete and I believe Kraft and Wolf want to compete and know the window starts in 2025/26 and cap-wise they have the room.

The cap will go up, the Patriots will roll 25 million or so to 2025 and the notion Kraft is cheap (despite being 20% over cash spending in a rebuilding year)and won't spend to win to me is not true. He'll allow the spending, he's getting up there, he wants to compete again, so IMO they will definitely have to spend more in terms of free agency.

In 2025 and 2026 they would more likely overpay for Calvin Ridley and Tyron Smith (both guys with a little risk involved in doing so) and outbid anyone Moreso than they would in 2024 for instance.
They JUST offered Aiyuk a massive contract because at his age he'd be a huge contributor in the 2025 and 2026 and on when they could win. He was a no brainer, but I think they will extend themselves more starting next year, even for the less of a no brainer talent than Aiyuk just to make sure they upgrade.

 

[Family]

Why not? When you have a terrible team and money to fix it with why would you sit on the money? Don’t we want to field the best team? Wouldn’t it be great to surround the rookie qb with better teammates? What if you spent that cap space, added 6-8 starters, put your qb on the field, watched him develop, win 7-8 games, and identified what was needed to grow that to 10-12?

I’m afraid we are worse than the Jets with a worse plan. The Jets always tried to compete.
We seem to have a plan of don’t improve hoard the resources and then some magic day in the future we will start doing exactly what we could be doing today

If you say we shouldn’t spend because we suck, then doing nothing to improve means we shouldn’t sting next year either because we will still
suck.

I don’t get people defending doing nothing to improve.

KC/KC/Cinci/KC/KC/NE/NE/NE

AFC Super Bowl teams the last eight years. Even if you have Josh Allen, you aren't going to the Super Bowl in the AFC.

So really the only thing that matters is whether Drake Maye is a HOF quarterback. Anything less and no strategy works. Any discussion really starts and ends what's the best way to get Maye there.

Your ideas are one way to get him there. But there are others. Sitting the QB is Green Bay's way. It's worked twice, and KC did it with Mahomes. In that situation, it really doesn't matter who was signed this off season.

They have a long road, but it begins and ends this round with Maye, like it did with Mac the three years before. There doesn't seem to be a single right way to develop a QB, and build a champion. What they did this off season is really a lot of talk over nothing. Next year is the first year to judge.

 

[State]

Last year it was around this time of the year that the Pats traded for Lowe and Wheatley. It makes me wonder if the Pats are going to make any moves for OT support.

 

[Clonamery]

KC/KC/Cinci/KC/KC/NE/NE/NE

AFC Super Bowl teams the last eight years. Even if you have Josh Allen, you aren't going to the Super Bowl in the AFC.

So really the only thing that matters is whether Drake Maye is a HOF quarterback. Anything less and no strategy works. Any discussion really starts and ends what's the best way to get Maye there.

Your ideas are one way to get him there. But there are others. Sitting the QB is Green Bay's way. It's worked twice, and KC did it with Mahomes. In that situation, it really doesn't matter who was signed this off season.

They have a long road, but it begins and ends this round with Maye, like it did with Mac the three years before. There doesn't seem to be a single right way to develop a QB, and build a champion. What they did this off season is really a lot of talk over nothing. Next year is the first year to judge.

Yup. New QB must survive with as little damage to his mind and body as possible.

 

[Jim Beankie]

KC/KC/Cinci/KC/KC/NE/NE/NE

AFC Super Bowl teams the last eight years. Even if you have Josh Allen, you aren't going to the Super Bowl in the AFC.

So really the only thing that matters is whether Drake Maye is a HOF quarterback. Anything less and no strategy works. Any discussion really starts and ends what's the best way to get Maye there.

Your ideas are one way to get him there. But there are others. Sitting the QB is Green Bay's way. It's worked twice, and KC did it with Mahomes. In that situation, it really doesn't matter who was signed this off season.

They have a long road, but it begins and ends this round with Maye, like it did with Mac the three years before. There doesn't seem to be a single right way to develop a QB, and build a champion. What they did this off season is really a lot of talk over nothing. Next year is the first year to judge.

The probable next HoF QB, Brees, also did not start his rookie year.

They also got Milton. Behind the calm yet upbeat façade might be a raging storm of motivation similar to another Orange Bowl winning 6th Rd pick who played for Michigan.

 

[State]

That's all well and good, but finding a team that has so many of those that they're willing to part with one is pretty much impossible right now.

Yes. It’s also why a premium is put on these large humans in the draft. So when a guy drops over weight concerns, much as happened to Onwenu some years earlier, you draft him instead of a Sacramento State hybrid defender not even Jim Nagy could tell you much about.

Major screwup by Belichick. His drafting prerogatives should have been taken away from him after 2015 when he thought taking Jordan Richards, that unathletic safety from Stanford, in the second round was a swell idea.

Dawand Jones>Marte Mapu

 

[Nunchucks]

When they picked Polk instead of a tackle this was the obvious result. Let's hope it was worth it

 

[Wozzy]

Pats played the Eagles last year in the regular season with DAndrews, Trent, Anderseon, Mafi and Sow. They did a great job. Hey, I'm trying to be positive. They might've just been trying stuff out today.....

My optimistic take is they could have a bounce back against the Eagles when they meet next. We’ll see…

Even if they perform slightly better offensively and clean up procedural errors, they still won’t have good blocking on the edges.

Until the coaches realize Chuks and Lowe are not the answer or the young tackles push their way into the starting line it’s going to look bad.

 

[Wozzy]

When they picked Polk instead of a tackle this was the obvious result. Let's hope it was worth it

Not just refusing to take a tackle at #2, but the decisions leading up to that. Rushing to sign Chuks first like he was some priority free agent. Not going after known commodities like Oli Udoh, Yosh Nijman or Andrus Peat instead.

I mean there’s a guy here complaining about Kraft being cheap and the collaboration not spending money. I don’t necessarily agree, but if there’s one area they could have splurged a little more it was here.

Don’t sign Chuks and sign all three of these guys above instead, sign two out of three. None of them got massive deals. they got similar money to Chuks and unlike him they are good and can play tackle or guard… they have position versatility.

Our line would be looking great right now, and they wouldn’t have spent much more. But the fact Wolf had a boner to draft WR immediately after Maye, the one he wanted got taken so he traded back and took a WR anyway. The fact he was willing to throw a stupid amount of money at Calvin Ridley and Aiyuk even though they weren’t worthy of that kind of money.

All these ^ things show a flawed value system, a blind spot in their player evaluation and team building process.

He’s in love with shiny hood ornaments, great GM’s like his dad build their teams from the inside out. Get the QB and OLine right and you can figure everything else out afterward.

I’d also add that while BB faltered in the draft towards the end of the dynasty, where he excelled was finding guys we referred to as “value vets.” Guys who were good players but maybe not as valued on the open market the way big names were.

These guys were typically late round picks or UDFA’s who took the long road to playing time, they proved themselves in limited snaps and on special teams. Welker, Lawrence Guy, Vrabel, Ninck. All three of the linemen I mentioned above fall into that category. We seem to have lost that very important team building aspect with his departure.

We’ll see if Wolf is some drafting genius who will prove us all wrong. Color me skeptical. We’ll also have people here saying words like “rebuilding” and talking about how this was a long term plan… garbage, there’s no justification for signing poor players and letting other similarly priced good players go elsewhere. This 2024 team could have gotten good fast, they only had to fix one phase… offense. No excuses…

 

[Clonamery]

Not just refusing to take a tackle at #2, but the decisions leading up to that. Rushing to sign Chuks first like he was some priority free agent. Not going after known commodities like Oli Udoh, Yosh Nijman or Andrus Peat instead.

I mean there’s a guy here complaining about Kraft being cheap and the collaboration not spending money. I don’t necessarily agree, but if there’s one area they could have splurged a little more it was here.

Don’t sign Chuks and sign all three of these guys above instead, sign two out of three. None of them got massive deals. they got similar money to Chuks and unlike him they are good and can play tackle or guard… they have position versatility.

Our line would be looking great right now, and they wouldn’t have spent much more. But the fact Wolf had a boner to draft WR immediately after Maye, the one he wanted got taken so he traded back and took a WR anyway. The fact he was willing to throw a stupid amount of money at Calvin Ridley and Aiyuk even though they weren’t worthy of that kind of money.

All these ^ things show a flawed value system, a blind spot in their player evaluation and team building process.

He’s in love with shiny hood ornaments, great GM’s like his dad build their teams from the inside out. Get the QB and OLine right and you can figure everything else out afterward.

I’d also add that while BB faltered in the draft towards the end of the dynasty, where he excelled was finding guys we referred to as “value vets.” Guys who were good players but maybe not as valued on the open market the way big names were.

These guys were typically late round picks or UDFA’s who took the long road to playing time, they proved themselves in limited snaps and on special teams. Welker, Lawrence Guy, Vrabel, Ninck. All three of the linemen I mentioned above fall into that category. We seem to have lost that very important team building aspect with his departure.

We’ll see if Wolf is some drafting genius who will prove us all wrong. Color me skeptical. We’ll also have people here saying words like “rebuilding” and talking about how this was a long term plan… garbage, there’s no justification for signing poor players and letting other similarly priced good players go elsewhere. This 2024 team could have gotten good fast, they only had to fix one phase… offense. No excuses…

Yum. Breakfast with all the fixings.

 

[Family]

Not just refusing to take a tackle at #2, but the decisions leading up to that. Rushing to sign Chuks first like he was some priority free agent. Not going after known commodities like Oli Udoh, Yosh Nijman or Andrus Peat instead.

I mean there’s a guy here complaining about Kraft being cheap and the collaboration not spending money. I don’t necessarily agree, but if there’s one area they could have splurged a little more it was here.

Don’t sign Chuks and sign all three of these guys above instead, sign two out of three. None of them got massive deals. they got similar money to Chuks and unlike him they are good and can play tackle or guard… they have position versatility.

Our line would be looking great right now, and they wouldn’t have spent much more. But the fact Wolf had a boner to draft WR immediately after Maye, the one he wanted got taken so he traded back and took a WR anyway. The fact he was willing to throw a stupid amount of money at Calvin Ridley and Aiyuk even though they weren’t worthy of that kind of money.

All these ^ things show a flawed value system, a blind spot in their player evaluation and team building process.

He’s in love with shiny hood ornaments, great GM’s like his dad build their teams from the inside out. Get the QB and OLine right and you can figure everything else out afterward.

I’d also add that while BB faltered in the draft towards the end of the dynasty, where he excelled was finding guys we referred to as “value vets.” Guys who were good players but maybe not as valued on the open market the way big names were.

These guys were typically late round picks or UDFA’s who took the long road to playing time, they proved themselves in limited snaps and on special teams. Welker, Lawrence Guy, Vrabel, Ninck. All three of the linemen I mentioned above fall into that category. We seem to have lost that very important team building aspect with his departure.

We’ll see if Wolf is some drafting genius who will prove us all wrong. Color me skeptical. We’ll also have people here saying words like “rebuilding” and talking about how this was a long term plan… garbage, there’s no justification for signing poor players and letting other similarly priced good players go elsewhere. This 2024 team could have gotten good fast, they only had to fix one phase… offense. No excuses…

Exactly.

There are valid arguments as to how they've gone about the rebuild (which is still up the in the air), but the willingness to spend money is not one of them.

 

[Wozzy]

Exactly.

There are valid arguments as to how they've gone about the rebuild (which is still up the in the air), but the willingness to spend money is not one of them.

I’m still holding out hope for Wallace, Zuri Henry, Anderson and Diesch. But the longer this off-season drags on and I read Lowe and Okorafor are starting with the 1’s the more annoyed I get. These young guys might take time, let’s hope that’s the case.

I wouldn’t be so annoyed with this situation if I wasn’t here on draft day pounding the table for a tackle at #2, if I wasn’t here all off-season begging them to sign some of these free agent tackles I mention above… only to watch them sign similar deals that Chuks got elsewhere.

Annoying as fck…

 

[Family]

I’m still holding out hope for Wallace, Zuri Henry, Anderson and Diesch. But the longer this off-season drags on and I read Lowe and Okorafor are starting with the 1’s the more annoyed I get. These young guys might take time, let’s hope that’s the case.

I wouldn’t be so annoyed with this situation if I wasn’t here on draft day pounding the table for a tackle at #2, if I wasn’t here all off-season begging them to sign some of these free agent tackles I mention above… only to watch them sign similar deals that Chuks got elsewhere.

Annoying as fck…

I'll still give them space that there are so many needs, and they weren't happy with 2nd round OT choices VS WR, that it's a two-year draft rebuild at these positions.

I'm with you that this group's decisions though have been iffy.

 

[Wozzy]

I'll still give them space that there are so many needs, and they weren't happy with 2nd round OT choices VS WR, that it's a two-year draft rebuild at these positions.

I'm with you that this group's decisions though have been iffy.

I didn’t see a team with a lot of needs this off-season. I saw a team with important needs. QB, OT, WR in that order.

I also saw a team with the 3rd overall pick, eight total picks, the third most cap space this season and endless cap space going forward. They had one phase to fix, offense, with a few positions needed to make it better and endless resources. If they failed to do so it won’t be because they needed more time. Especially if some of these options I offered above succeed with their respective teams. The Pats might fix it in time, but it will be their errors that slowed them down.

We’ll see, hope is not completely gone for this season. Nobody expected a Super Bowl this year, but a competitive exciting team was possible.

 

[signbabybrady]

Not just refusing to take a tackle at #2, but the decisions leading up to that. Rushing to sign Chuks first like he was some priority free agent. Not going after known commodities like Oli Udoh, Yosh Nijman or Andrus Peat instead.

I mean there’s a guy here complaining about Kraft being cheap and the collaboration not spending money. I don’t necessarily agree, but if there’s one area they could have splurged a little more it was here.

Don’t sign Chuks and sign all three of these guys above instead, sign two out of three. None of them got massive deals. they got similar money to Chuks and unlike him they are good and can play tackle or guard… they have position versatility.

Our line would be looking great right now, and they wouldn’t have spent much more. But the fact Wolf had a boner to draft WR immediately after Maye, the one he wanted got taken so he traded back and took a WR anyway. The fact he was willing to throw a stupid amount of money at Calvin Ridley and Aiyuk even though they weren’t worthy of that kind of money.

All these ^ things show a flawed value system, a blind spot in their player evaluation and team building process.

He’s in love with shiny hood ornaments, great GM’s like his dad build their teams from the inside out. Get the QB and OLine right and you can figure everything else out afterward.

I’d also add that while BB faltered in the draft towards the end of the dynasty, where he excelled was finding guys we referred to as “value vets.” Guys who were good players but maybe not as valued on the open market the way big names were.

These guys were typically late round picks or UDFA’s who took the long road to playing time, they proved themselves in limited snaps and on special teams. Welker, Lawrence Guy, Vrabel, Ninck. All three of the linemen I mentioned above fall into that category. We seem to have lost that very important team building aspect with his departure.

We’ll see if Wolf is some drafting genius who will prove us all wrong. Color me skeptical. We’ll also have people here saying words like “rebuilding” and talking about how this was a long term plan… garbage, there’s no justification for signing poor players and letting other similarly priced good players go elsewhere. This 2024 team could have gotten good fast, they only had to fix one phase… offense. No excuses…

Not making OL a high priority is bafflingly stupid.

That said when we signed our free agents I was mostly underwhelmed but now seeing some of them in camp I'm actually encouraged that this free agent class looks better than we all thought.

Gibson and Marco Wilson appear like they'll have significant roles. Jaylin Hawkins looks like a decent 3rd safety. Hooper seems to be fitting in pretty nicely. I'm sure there's a few I'm not thinking of too.

I'd give them all up for a good LT but let's not hold the OL failures against the rest of the free agent class.

 

[n1997y]

Yup. New QB must survive with as little damage to his mind and body as possible.

Perfect explanation of why Brissett is QB1 and Maye won’t start until the OL shows improvement.