Celtics 2023 - 2024 Discussion

[Kdo5]

If he’s playing at his top level, yes. And certainly you need an alpha for order, but having a point guard like White is so valuable.

When I played basketball in high school, there was one player who got all this recognition, and we looked at his stats and he was averaging like 11 ppg so we didn’t get it, until we played them. Dude went on to play MLS pro soccer. Absolute monster on defense, stealing everything, changed out whole offense as we became skittish. He was up tempo all game and threw ridiculous passes and commanded the offense. Would only shoot if he had an open layup. But when they needed scoring he would go off. They won 3 state championships and he was widely regarded as best player in state averaging less than 15 ppg. Changed my perception of the game.

Shouldn’t dismiss what the On/Off says about DWhite on court.

He takes a lot of sub-10 point games because he’s never out there with minimum shot quota. His defense is always lights out. He’s a phenomenal decision maker and passer and positively affects the offense almost every play.

I think he’s similar to a guy like Chris Paul in how he changes the game on both sides of the court. Not quite at Paul’s level but also more clutch.

That said, if you could lose Tatum or White for the playoffs, I’d probably choose to lose White to be safe. But honestly I don’t know. Tatum is great but also loses quite a few games. If you went an entire season I bet win/loss is similar if you’re missing either player.

Tiny sample size but they’re 2-2 without White and 2-1 without Tatum.

The On/Off isn’t a small sample size though. Tatum without White goes from MVP level to solid starter level.

Derrick White isn’t even the #1 or #2 option on the team. He isn’t facing double teams like Tatum constantly does.

He is a solid facilitator, smart and takes advantage of the attention that the elite scorers on the team command. He is an excellent defender.

I think he had a case to be an All-Star and should be first team all defense.

But it is truly silly to argue that Derrick White is better than Tatum. I think you should just revert back to the Jaylen Brown stuff because now you’ve definitely taken it too far with this new take.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Derrick White isn’t even the #1 or #2 option on the team.

You immediately revert to offense, and even more specifically “who’s gonna shoot?”

Derrick White takes fewer shots, mostly by choice. He’s instrumental in creating shots for teammates, including Tatum.

He isn’t facing double teams like Tatum constantly does.

With this supporting cast and all those double teams, Tatum is averaging 4.9 assists per game. Also this should be baked into his net rating. Not adding up.

He is a solid facilitator, smart and takes advantage of the attention that the elite scorers on the team command. He is an excellent defender.

He has shooting splits of 47/40/90. That’s bordering on elite.

I think he had a case to be an All-Star and should be first team all defense.

Agree on both counts.

But it is truly silly to argue that Derrick White is better than Tatum.

If Tatum is better, why is Tatum’s net rating much worse without White than White’s net rating without Tatum?

I think you should just revert back to the Jaylen Brown stuff because now you’ve definitely taken it too far with this new take.

Lol

Tatum isn’t having a great year…not bad, not great for him. Career wise, there’s no question it’s Tatum.

This year? There are so many absurd stats being thrown around Twitter about Derrick White, some of which I’ve posted. His play is absurdly high.

There are only a handful of players in the NBA who are truly elite on both sides of the ball. White is the one of the few.

This isn’t really a knock on Tatum. I’m hoping they’ll extend him at all costs. And could White just be having an outlier season? Definitely. But these numbers are real, and they’re contextual. White is currently the team’s best player. He does it in a quiet way but if you pay close attention to his game, and then compare to other point guards, so many great things stand out (shooting efficiency, passing efficiency, basketball IQ, court vision, quickness), and so many common point guard things aren’t there (bad decisions, too much dribbling, turnovers, forced shots.)

Tatum is better by the expectancy factor. We know his level of play and expect him to be there. White doesn’t have that. We expect White to be more of a role player and that his play will regress. And maybe those are true. But who is actually better based only on 2023-24 impact? White.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The argument for Tatum is that he’s the alpha dog, and you can’t base everything on efficiency because you need a big gun. And I do agree which is why advanced stats aren’t everything. But Tatum’s garbage play in clutch situations, and DWhite’s assassin like poise (NO turnovers in crunch time, so many daggers) kind of negates Tatum as the alpha dog that sets the pace.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

D White turns 30 in July. Tatum just turned 26. About a 4 year gap. Give Tatum 2 more years and there will be no comparison. The NBA takes time. Tatum is still young. I think MJ won his first title at 28?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

D White turns 30 in July. Tatum just turned 26. About a 4 year gap. Give Tatum 2 more years and there will be no comparison. The NBA takes time. Tatum is still young. I think MJ won his first title at 28?

I love Tatum and agree there’s an even higher ceiling.

But we all get frustrated by his mental lapses, lazy passes, iso ball, poor clock management etc. You’d like to think that’s just noise but it isn’t. Those things repeat and add up and that’s why White has better overall efficiency numbers.

White is playing at his pinnacle. Tatum is playing well but continues to do some head scratching things. Hopefully Tatum will continue to improve mentally as he has physically. You can tell he’s trying but he needs to work on those bad impulses. White is simply more mentally disciplined and it makes a big difference. I believe in JT though. Also White isn’t a fair comparison because he’s like 99.9 percentile guy when it comes to court vision, efficiency, and decisions, both sides of the court.

 

[Kdo5]

D White turns 30 in July. Tatum just turned 26. About a 4 year gap. Give Tatum 2 more years and there will be no comparison. The NBA takes time. Tatum is still young. I think MJ won his first title at 28?

There’s no comparison right now. You can love DWhite as a player and not buy into this scorching hawt take that Tatum isn’t the best player on the Celtics.

White is having an excellent season. One season doesn’t make him a better player than Tatum, especially when you consider that BPM isn’t the ball end all. There is more context to whether said player is better than another than that statistic alone.

 

[jimnance]

Lot of valid points made about both players by everyone.
I like both players.
Tatum's biggest flaw is that he sucks in crunchtime.
Still time to correct that.
One point that nobody mentioned:
DWhite does not get doubleteamed on offense like Tatum does.
If DWhite were to shoot at the same volume as Tatum, his offensive #'s would go ?way down. Tatum is scoring with 2 guys hanging on him a lot.
I dont see DWhite having that ability.
And I love DWhite. Great 2 way player.
But Tatum is also an excellent defender( tho not in Whites class)
Tatum is the best player on the team.

 

[Kdo5]

Lot of valid points made about both players by everyone.
I like both players.
Tatum's biggest flaw is that he sucks in crunchtime.
Still time to correct that.
One point that nobody mentioned:
DWhite does not get doubleteamed on offense like Tatum does.
If DWhite were to shoot at the same volume as Tatum, his offensive #'s would go ?way down. Tatum is scoring with 2 guys hanging on him a lot.
I dont see DWhite having that ability.
And I love DWhite. Great 2 way player.
But Tatum is also an excellent defender( tho not in Whites class)
Tatum is the best player on the team.

I mentioned that very point. Saying DWhite is better than Tatum is saying that Derrick White is a top 10 player in the NBA at least. And that is stupid talk.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I mentioned that very point. Saying DWhite is better than Tatum is saying that Derrick White is a top 10 player in the NBA at least. And that is stupid talk.

Stupid talk? This was last year’s RAPTOR grades. Maybe people should have paying closer attention…because when you see nine players that intuitively “fit” it usually means the tenth isn’t some weird statistical fluke.



Here’s this season’s RAPTOR now that White’s minutes have increased. I just keep hearing about how his efficiency will tank though. White is still 10th. Actually 10th in WAR, tied with Tatum for 7th in RAPTOR.

 

[Kdo5]

Stupid talk? This was last year’s RAPTOR grades. Maybe people should have paying closer attention…because when you see nine players that intuitively “fit” it usually means the tenth isn’t some weird statistical fluke.



Here’s this season’s RAPTOR now that White’s minutes have increased. I just keep hearing about how his efficiency will tank though. White is still 10th. Actually 10th in WAR, tied with Tatum for 7th in RAPTOR.

One big thing I’d note is that Derrick White plays with elite talent surrounding him who absolutely help take pressure off. He is a #3 offensive option or #4 on the current squad.

All the other guys on the list are #1’s. There is a luxury in him never having to deal with a double team or the opponents best defenders. Additionally this luxury means he can commit maximum effort to his defense. You could not ask White to put up an efficient 22+ ppg while playing all-NBA defense.

You **** on Tatum/Brown constantly without realizing that life would be a lot more difficult for Derrick White without them being the object of the opponents attention.

Context is important. Your analytics entirely miss it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

One big thing I’d note is that Derrick White plays with elite talent surrounding him who absolutely help take pressure off. He is a #3 offensive option or #4 on the current squad.

Again On/Off data

Tatum benefits more from White than White from Tatum. Funny you say this when Brown is literally at almost 0 with White off the court and +12 with him. Think about that…over the entire season the scoreboard has been a net neutral for Brown, despite all those other great players, without White. Who needs who? Those double teams are accounted for in the bottom line.

And for all the talk about the KP/JB pick and roll, KP is at a minus rating without White. Crazy isn’t it? Both of those guys go from trading points and treading water without White to dominating games with him.

Numbers don’t lie.

Also White’s overall RAPTOR ranking was the same in 2022-23. His offense benefits somewhat from the spacing improvement, as does everyone elses.

All the other guys on the list are #1’s.

You’re starting to get it…wait…

There is a luxury in him never having to deal with a double team or the opponents best defenders. Additionally this luxury means he can commit maximum effort to his defense.

…never mind.

You could not ask White to put up an efficient 22+ ppg while playing all-NBA defense.

He’s at 47/40/90 shooting. He could tail off a lot to still be in efficiency categories of a lot of those guys.

Meanwhile you couldn’t ask another guy to play all world defense and still have the same energy on offense. What’s your point?

You **** on Tatum/Brown constantly without realizing that life would be a lot more difficult for Derrick White without them being the object of the opponents attention.

Except the argument goes both ways. See Tatum and Brown’s on/off. The numbers declare they need White more than White needs them. Fact. Unless you’re really just basing this on points and not actual team success.

I do not **** on Tatum constantly. I love Tatum. One of my favorite Boston athletes. But he needs to defer to White and others in crunch time. And my praise for White was never supposed to be about crapping on Tatum, but you’re wanting to drag this out.

Context is important. Your analytics entirely miss it.

They’re not my analytics. RAPTOR is a very widely used metric. Do you think Brad Stevens uses “the eeeeye test”? Guess who was 11th in RAPTOR last year? Jrue Holiday. Guess who has always been an analytics darling? Kristaps Porzingis. Guess who isn’t? Marcus Smart (bad) and Jaylen Brown (not bad but very overrated). Analytics forces you to abandon your bias by accounting for more factors.

Tatum is rated fairly by the analytics. He’s ahead of White. That’s fair. As I said, Tatum is still a little better in overall impact but this doesn’t factor in the crunch time factor. White (and KP/JH) is the reason they usually don’t fold like a cheap tent in dogfight games now like they often have with JT/JB.

Notice the RAPTOR ratings are align well with everything else? SGA and Jokic are top 2 in NBA. As you said, all #1s. So how does Derrick White get on the top 10? Plenty of other players benefit from double teams, good supporting casts etc. White was on there last year without a stacked team. Clearly it wasn’t flukey due to low minutes.

 

[Kdo5]

Again On/Off data

Tatum benefits more from White than White from Tatum.

Also White’s overall RAPTOR ranking was the same in 2022-23. His offense benefits somewhat from the spacing improvement, as does everyone elses.


You’re starting to get it…wait…

…never mind.

He’s at 47/40/90 shooting. He could tail off a lot to still be in efficiency categories of a lot of those guys.

Meanwhile you couldn’t ask another guy to play all world defense and still have the same energy on offense. What’s your point?

Except the argument goes both ways. See Tatum and Brown’s on/off. The numbers declare they need White more than White needs them. Fact. Unless you’re really just basing this on points and not actual team success.

I do not **** on Tatum constantly.

They’re not my analytics. RAPTOR is a very widely used metric. Do you think Brad Stevens uses “the eeeeye test”? Guess who was 11th in RAPTOR last year? Jrue Holiday. Guess who has always been an analytics darling? Kristaps Porzingis.

Do they need White more than White needs them?

It’s a good question. IIRC Tatum and Brown have been to two ECF without White and had regular season and playoff success. White didn’t exactly take the Spurs places without Tatum & Brown.

They are all better off together and all have improved as players together. Your takes make it seem like I don’t like DWhite. I think he’s great. He fit with Tatum & Brown and they’ve all elevated each other.

But your complete obsession with declaring White is the best, Brown sucks, Tatum isn’t the best on the team is overkill. I don’t understand why it is so important to you to do so.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Do they need White more than White needs them?

It’s a good question. IIRC Tatum and Brown have been to two ECF without White and had regular season and playoff success. White didn’t exactly take the Spurs places without Tatum & Brown.

They are all better off together and all have improved as players together. Your takes make it seem like I don’t like DWhite. I think he’s great.

But your complete obsession with declaring White is the best, Brown sucks, Tatum isn’t the best on the team is overkill. I don’t understand why it is so important to you to do so.

I said White is the best player on the team and cited a couple of figures. I was going to leave it there. Just my opinion.

You can back firing that my take is “silly” and “stupid” among other things. I’m defending it.

Saying Tatum isn’t the best player on the team when he’s tied in RAPTOR with White, and White has been unquestionably better in pressure situations, wasn’t supposed to be a total dump on Tatum. I feel White deserves the recognition just as you feel Tatum does.

 

[Kdo5]

I said White is the best player on the team and cited a couple of figures. I was going to leave it there. Just my opinion.

You can back firing that my take is “silly” and “stupid” among other things. I’m defending it.

Saying Tatum isn’t the best player on the team when he’s tied in RAPTOR with White, and White has been unquestionably better in pressure situations, wasn’t supposed to be a total dump on Tatum. I feel White deserves the recognition just as you feel Tatum does.

Everyone here recognizes that White is a damn good player. Go write to NBA.com or whoever gave their player rankings that left him out of their top 75.

You are preaching to a choir about Derrick White. But you just obsess over diminishing other guys to talk him up when it doesn’t need to be the case. It’s not just this instance where you do it “and will leave it”. You do it very repetitively.

White benefits from playing next to Tatum/Brown every bit as much as they do with him. It’s great to watch and hopefully they can do what it takes to keep those three together for the foreseeable future.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

White benefits from playing next to Tatum/Porzingis every bit as much as they do with him. It’s great to watch and hopefully they can do what it takes to keep those three together for the foreseeable future.

Fixed it for you.

 

[Kdo5]

Fixed it for you.

See? You can’t help yourself. You have a fixation to say Jaylen Brown is bad constantly.

You could’ve said it and left it at that months ago. But you are obsessed. It’s weird.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

See? You can’t help yourself. You have a fixation to say Jaylen Brown is bad constantly.

You could’ve said it and left it at that months ago. But you are obsessed. It’s weird.

You can stop responding any time as well. How does Derrick White benefit from Jaylen Brown? He may draw doubles but look at the insane split there.

White benefits from Tatum, yes.

 

[Kdo5]

So the two guards and Tatum (who plays the point much of the time) pass the ball more than Jaylen Brown.

Big revelation.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

So the two guards and Tatum (who plays the point a lot of times) pass the ball more than Jaylen Brown whose offensive game is predicated on cut and score.

Big revelation.

Delusion. Brown has virtually nothing to do with White’s success. I’m not ****ting on Brown these days for the sake of the thread, but let’s just leave it there. Can talk about his individual game within his own contained island but he’s not opening up anything for White, and should not be cited as a factor for why White is killing analytics.

Also your answer is ridiculous. Every player passes significantly more than Brown. Look at the ratio of passes received/made.