Celtics 2023 - 2024 Discussion

[Kdo5]

The thing that scares me about Brown is his poor free throw shooting, or foul shooting in his case. That can bite a team in the ass in crunch time.

Always been a concern, for sure. It’s a weak spot in his game, along with getting stripped in traffic but he seems to be doing better in that regard with the turnovers.

 

[1960Pats]

That missed corner 3 is why he remains outside the very best players. He has to make that. But worse: we all knew he missed before he let it go. That’s the issue with him. He misses it every time in this type of game and situation.

Since you missed the game: the team just played like ass most of the time. Sloppy passing was the worst. Nuggets just contested every pass and played tough man to man defense. Tatum especially threw so many lazy lobs that got stolen. Reminiscent of the Heat playoff stuff. Bad three point and free throw shooting too but they still could have overcome that if they’d played solid fundamentals and moved the ball.

Denver probably beats them in a series. They’re just tougher and scrappier, and their leadership is stronger with Jokic and Murray.

That was a ****ing awesome dunk by Aaron Gordon at the end. Holy ****.

Tatum's cross-court bounce pass that went 8 feet into the air for an easy breakaway had me out of my seat.

He's been in the league too long to be making dumb plays like that.

 

[1960Pats]

Always been a concern, for sure. It’s a weak spot in his game, along with getting stripped in traffic but he seems to be doing better in that regard with the turnovers.

He seems to be playing a little more under control than in the past.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It’s frustrating to me that you can just feel when it’s a Tatum - Brown game. Like, everyone else is going to be a role player tonight so don’t even bother because the ball is going thru those two. Against tough defenses they almost always lose this type of game and you can really sense in the first quarter there’s something out of sync of offense.

When your offensive teammates are Marcus Smart and Al Horford, there’s some decent rationalization of this strategy. When you have a backcourt of Jrue Holiday and Derrick White, it’s just inexcusable to run the offense thru these two. Tatum isn’t a damn point guard and while he can get away with it against soft zones, he looks like a clown against suffocating defenses like Miami, Minnesota, and Denver.

Luckily the Celtics four worst matchups are all in the west (MIN, DEN, OKC, LAC) so we can just hope and pray they can get the finals and shoot well on 3s to avoid a series featuring these grinder games which they always lose.

 

[cupofjoe1962]

The only way I see the Celtics winning a championship is if they win the finals 4 to 1ish with a final game blowout

I would not pick the Celtics if they needed to play in the last 2 minutes of the game

Tatum gags the last shot more than anyone I can remember & Brown goes invisible the last 2 minutes of the game

Tatum is a superstar who doesn’t know how to win. He definitely does not have that Larry Bird “clutch” gene.

 

[Jim Beankie]

KP time, baby!!

 

[bresna]

Even this tweet misses last night's bad shot by Tatum because he missed that wide open 3 with 44 seconds left. It would have put them up by one and changed those last 44 seconds dramatically.

Tatum just isn't clutch.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Starting to downgrade Tatum overall after his iso fadeaway off balance midrange brick tonight at end of Q1. He’s a selfish player and never learns. Mazulla is also to blame but how can a player be so stubborn? Statistically he’s like the worst last second shooter in the league.

 

[Kdo5]

Starting to downgrade Tatum overall after his iso fadeaway off balance midrange brick tonight at end of Q1. He’s a selfish player and never learns. Mazulla is also to blame but how can a player be so stubborn? Statistically he’s like the worst last second shooter in the league.

Nah I’m not “downgrading him”, that’s an overreaction. I have faith in him. Is he selfish? Yes but that is the case for many superstars. If he wasn’t at least a little selfish that would tell me he’s too passive. He just needs to be smarter. If he wants the last shot that’s fine by me but the coach has to put him in a position to find a legitimately good shot and he has to be better at finding the right shot or passing it up to an open player.

JT had a few games that looked bad but I’ve also seen him save our bacon in the playoffs numerous times. He can do it. It’s a handful of plays that can easily shift the narrative. He’s won more than many of the top guys in the league, despite what the media would have you believe.

 

[jimnance]

Overall JT did not have a great game last night. Bad shooting + 4 turnovers.
He did show up better in the 4th. I liked his self-deprecation after the game. Reporter asks "what was the key tonight" and JT sez " I stopped turning the ball over"
Jaylen Brown continued his excellent play. Love his aggressiveness on offense and playing superb D.
Backcourt of Jrue and DWhite was great again as usual. Though Holiday had a couple uncharacteristic turnovers.
Kornet and Pritchard were sensational off the bench.
And Joe Mazzula. Let's give him some credit. His coaching made a huge difference in this game. Time and again, Sun's closed the gap, Joe called a TO and designed great plays coming out of TO that seemed to result in C's buckets every time.
Sun's were down Booker but we were down KP. That's an even swap.
Good bounceback game.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Nah I’m not “downgrading him”, that’s an overreaction. I have faith in him. Is he selfish? Yes but that is the case for many superstars. If he wasn’t at least a little selfish that would tell me he’s too passive. He just needs to be smarter. If he wants the last shot that’s fine by me but the coach has to put him in a position to find a legitimately good shot and he has to be better at finding the right shot or passing it up to an open player.

JT had a few games that looked bad but I’ve also seen him save our bacon in the playoffs numerous times. He can do it. It’s a handful of plays that can easily shift the narrative. He’s won more than many of the top guys in the league, despite what the media would have you believe.

Not saying I’m downgrading him to scrub level. I just really wonder about this guy’s mental makeup. Maybe this is just who he is and he’s never going to “grow out of it.” Can he still win a championship? Yes with enough help (like this team.) But under normal circumstances, he won’t.

 

[jimnance]

Yeah, that's not hyperbole.
Just an incredible block.
Good to see he's getting his due from national media. Especially ex- players, who know just how valuable he is.
Awesome move by Stevens getting Mr.White

 

[bresna]

What was up the referees last night? They were letting almost everything go. But the thing that bugged me the most was when they gave Brown a T and then a few plays later, a Suns player complains about the lack of a call, same as Brown, and no T. That was BS.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Derrick White is the best player on the Celtics.

Net Rating With/Without Derrick White
(Net Rating is +\- per 100 possessions)

Tatum wDW - 13.99
Tatum woDW - 7.29
DW Factor +6.7

Brown wDW - 11.97
Brown woDW - 0.91
DW Factor +11.06

Porzingis wDW - 17.16
Porzingis woDW - minus 2.94
DW Factor - +20.10

Holiday wDW - 9.86
Holiday woDW - 7.75
DW Factor - +2.11

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Celtics On/Off Leaders
(Team performance when player is on/off court)

White +7.6
Hauser +3.9
Porzingis +3.7
Tatum +1.9
Pritchard -0.1
Horford -2.6
Holiday -6.1
Brown -6.2

 

[Kdo5]

Derrick White is the best player on the Celtics.

Net Rating With/Without Derrick White
(Net Rating is +\- per 100 possessions)

Tatum wDW - 13.99
Tatum woDW - 7.29
DW Factor +6.7

Brown wDW - 11.97
Brown woDW - 0.91
DW Factor +11.06

Porzingis wDW - 17.16
Porzingis woDW - minus 2.94
DW Factor - +20.10

Holiday wDW - 9.86
Holiday woDW - 7.75
DW Factor - +2.11

Jayson Tatum is the best player on the Celtics.

Simplified it for you.

 

[bresna]

Starting to downgrade Tatum overall after his iso fadeaway off balance midrange brick tonight at end of Q1. He’s a selfish player and never learns. Mazulla is also to blame but how can a player be so stubborn? Statistically he’s like the worst last second shooter in the league.

He clanged the last shot of the 3rd quarter too. Same play for that matter. Iso fade-away. In a way, it's like they read all the criticisms of this play call and said, "Screw that - we'll do it anyway".

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

He clanged the last shot of the 3rd quarter too. Same play for that matter. Iso fade-away. In a way, it's like they read all the criticisms of this play call and said, "Screw that - we'll do it anyway".

It is really odd because they must know it has to change.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Jayson Tatum is the best player on the Celtics.

Simplified it for you.

If he’s playing at his top level, yes. And certainly you need an alpha for order, but having a point guard like White is so valuable.

When I played basketball in high school, there was one player who got all this recognition, and we looked at his stats and he was averaging like 11 ppg so we didn’t get it, until we played them. Dude went on to play MLS pro soccer. Absolute monster on defense, stealing everything, changed out whole offense as we became skittish. He was up tempo all game and threw ridiculous passes and commanded the offense. Would only shoot if he had an open layup. But when they needed scoring he would go off. They won 3 state championships and he was widely regarded as best player in state averaging less than 15 ppg. Changed my perception of the game.

Shouldn’t dismiss what the On/Off says about DWhite on court.

He takes a lot of sub-10 point games because he’s never out there with minimum shot quota. His defense is always lights out. He’s a phenomenal decision maker and passer and positively affects the offense almost every play.

I think he’s similar to a guy like Chris Paul in how he changes the game on both sides of the court. Not quite at Paul’s level but also more clutch.

That said, if you could lose Tatum or White for the playoffs, I’d probably choose to lose White to be safe. But honestly I don’t know. Tatum is great but also loses quite a few games. If you went an entire season I bet win/loss is similar if you’re missing either player.

Tiny sample size but they’re 2-2 without White and 2-1 without Tatum.

The On/Off isn’t a small sample size though. Tatum without White goes from MVP level to solid starter level.