Mac Jones - Thats my QB poll

[Tunescribe]

I 100% agree with you, though, Zappe was pretty fearless, and he was definitely better about sliding up. Mac moves well laterally, but he's not big on climbing the pocket. He tends to sit at the back of the pocket and doesn't really slide up, or at least not as well as Zappe does.

I just don't get this. Honestly. Mac moves "up" when he has room to do so.

I am so damn sick of these faux "Zappe vs. Mac" arguments that lack reasonably solid bases for comparison. Zappe negotiating time in the pocket vs. the likes of Cleveland and Detroit is worlds different than Mac vs. New Jersey, Miami or Buffalo.

Sorry I disappointed you…? Not sure what I said that was so hurtful. Several people including Ian have agreed with it already but I will try better next time I guess.

You can dispense with the sarcasm, it wasn't at all "hurtful." The only thing that disappoints me is your unwillingness to be objective about it from all angles of consideration. Your Zappe preference is transparent and unfortunately, Ian is not always right.

 

[Ian]

Well said Ian. I agree with pretty much everything you said. It is curious how Mac was better with pocket presence as a rookie early and then regressed as time went on. His pocket presence was widely considered a strength coming out of college so it’s definitely sort of strange. Maybe he is just not comfortable with getting hit? He’s been relatively sturdy despite the hits so I don’t consider him fragile but wonder if he’s mentally spooked a bit.

I’m definitely looking forward to seeing how things progress - Mac has the tools to be the overall better QB but Zappe can also close that gap entirely if Mac doesn’t take a big step forward. I’d also consider drafting a QB like Jake Haener in the 4th or later to add to the competition. I like his skillset even if he’s small and he’s a high character guy.

I think the other part of it was that he lost confidence because the line was so inconsistent. I also feel like there were issues with the protections, which the Herald article sort of alluded to. The whole, "if this, then this ..." thing seemed to be a question where they didn't seem to have a lot of answers. Mac made so many adjustments his rookie year and a lot of the success came from that. At the same time, those adjustments started with McDaniels, and Patricia was not good on the fly, especially as the game progressed. The numbers essentially told the story, especially when you look at 1st/3rd QTR totals vs 2nd/4th quarter numbers.

Maybe that confidence comes back this year if someone emerges at left tackle and Brown moves to right tackle, or however it plays out. Or if he has more confidence in the game plans. But it was definitely a little strange to see, and my guess also was the guys at this level also hit a little harder, so I'm sure that played a role because Brady did a lot of the same until he backed off a little following the ridiculous shoulder separation he suffered after the 2002 season. He sort of realized that he needed to pick his moments a little more, so maybe that's also what Jones is trying to get better about doing.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Well said Ian. I agree with pretty much everything you said. It is curious how Mac was better with pocket presence as a rookie early and then regressed as time went on. His pocket presence was widely considered a strength coming out of college so it’s definitely sort of strange. Maybe he is just not comfortable with getting hit? He’s been relatively sturdy despite the hits so I don’t consider him fragile but wonder if he’s mentally spooked a bit.

I’m definitely looking forward to seeing how things progress - Mac has the tools to be the overall better QB but Zappe can also close that gap entirely if Mac doesn’t take a big step forward. I’d also consider drafting a QB like Jake Haener in the 4th or later to add to the competition. I like his skillset even if he’s small and he’s a high character guy.

A rookie in any pro sport can have advantages which make the transition from college smooth - playing on a major D1 team with lots of support, for example.

Way ... way too much attention has been paid to coaches. When I think of athletes, specifically quarterbacks, I don't usually focus on who their offensive coordinator was. Joe Bugel did a lot for Joe Theisman - by having him hand off the ball to Riggins.

The case that Brady made everybody look good - and that they were otherwise badly flawed and/or mediocre - has been strengthened.

Kraft & Belichick have had tremendous, repeated opportunities the last few years to keep the franchise in championship contention, and instead they've been twiddling around in their own personal beliefs and trying to make themselves look right.

Apparently, years of success and accolades discouraged any development of self examination, criticism or adjustment of philosophical approaches.

 

[Ian]

I just don't get this. Honestly. Mac moves "up" when he has room to do so.

I am so damn sick of these faux "Zappe vs. Mac" arguments that lack reasonably solid bases for comparison. Zappe negotiating time in the pocket vs. the likes of Cleveland and Detroit is worlds different than Mac vs. New Jersey, Miami or Buffalo.

He tends to sit back a little farther, but as I said, he moves just fine laterally. I think part of it had to do with his protection because I definitely noticed a difference there from his rookie year. At the same time, I do believe he didn't have a lot of trust and got hit a lot, which absolutely affected him. But as I told Ross, I believe he didn't have confidence in their protections or some of the audibles, especially given what we learned from the Herald article. So I think that was an issue that hurt him.

To your point, my bigger issue is with the people who say Jones doesn't see the field. If you watch the All-22 from the angle where you can see his eyes, he doesn't turn his head, but his eyes absolutely move, and he still goes through his progressions. In fact, he does a great job moving guys and drawing his guys open. Obviously, the offense last year didn't always allow for that, but it's definitely one of his strengths.

 

[Ian]

Ian is not always right.

Tune has known me long enough where I 100% agree with this comment.

 

[Ross12]

Tune has known me long enough where I 100% agree with this comment.

Of course, but Tunescribe stated I should “run my conclusions by someone else” and see if anyone agrees. Was simply stating several folks including yourself already had.

 

[Ian]

I just don't get this. Honestly. Mac moves "up" when he has room to do so.

I am so damn sick of these faux "Zappe vs. Mac" arguments that lack reasonably solid bases for comparison. Zappe negotiating time in the pocket vs. the likes of Cleveland and Detroit is worlds different than Mac vs. New Jersey, Miami or Buffalo.



You can dispense with the sarcasm, it wasn't at all "hurtful." The only thing that disappoints me is your unwillingness to be objective about it from all angles of consideration. Your Zappe preference is transparent and unfortunately, Ian is not always right.

Again, he wasn't like that in the early part of the year. There were multiple examples in the Ravens game where he slid up and made some terrific throws:







Again, I'm guessing getting crushed as often as he did - and lacking the confidence in the protections - probably made him more hesitant down the stretch.

People forget how good he really has been when the system was solid. Hoping for more of that in 2023.

 

[maust]

Ian is not always right.

Tune has known me long enough where I 100% agree with this comment.

 

[Ross12]

You can dispense with the sarcasm, it wasn't at all "hurtful." The only thing that disappoints me is your unwillingness to be objective about it from all angles of consideration. Your Zappe preference is transparent and unfortunately, Ian is not always right.

You seemed very offended by my post based upon your wording. I feel I’m relatively objective but I’m certainly not perfect. Truthfully I do not know who should start this season - that’ll be up to Bill and BOB. Don’t know how each guy will adapt to the new offense. I’ll root for both/either. I have not voted in the “poll” this thread is based upon.

 

[Huckleberry1]

I'm of course looking forward to the end of this subject and getting on with the business of football.

Jones never should have seen the field after getting injured. Zappe would have gained important, valuable experience, the team would have at least made the playoffs and we'd have something to build on.

Patricia is no worse than the vast majority of OC's in the league. Judge may not be great but he's not going to sabotage a Super Bowl run all by himself.

Lol. You thought they were going on a Super Bowl run with Bailey Zappe and the Patricia/ Judge offensive juggernaut? I have seen many posts from you Actual, but never one that I considered bash.t crazy. That one however…….

 

[Love The Drake]

Again, he wasn't like that in the early part of the year. There were multiple examples in the Ravens game where he slid up and made some terrific throws:







Again, I'm guessing getting crushed as often as he did - and lacking the confidence in the protections - probably made him more hesitant down the stretch.

People forget how good he really has been when the system was solid. Hoping for more of that in 2023.

Fantastic he played so well in the Ravens game.
Could actually be worth something if we do go broke for Jackson.

 

[Ian]

Fantastic he played so well in the Ravens game.
Could actually be worth something if we do go broke for Jackson.

No way Belichick gives up two first-round picks for him, or I should say, I'd be shocked if that happened. The best you might be willing to hope for would be for him to hit free agency and come here that way, because this remains a team in need of adding talented young depth and that's just far too high a price to give up for him.

 

[Tunescribe]

He tends to sit back a little farther, but as I said, he moves just fine laterally. I think part of it had to do with his protection because I definitely noticed a difference there from his rookie year. At the same time, I do believe he didn't have a lot of trust and got hit a lot, which absolutely affected him. But as I told Ross, I believe he didn't have confidence in their protections or some of the audibles, especially given what we learned from the Herald article. So I think that was an issue that hurt him.

To your point, my bigger issue is with the people who say Jones doesn't see the field. If you watch the All-22 from the angle where you can see his eyes, he doesn't turn his head, but his eyes absolutely move, and he still goes through his progressions. In fact, he does a great job moving guys and drawing his guys open. Obviously, the offense last year didn't always allow for that, but it's definitely one of his strengths.

Ian, you posted the comparative videos of Zappe setting up and throwing. We'll have to revisit them but I seem to recall Zappe taking deeper drops because he has to work forward momentum into his throws for needed velocity (compensating for lack of arm strength). We both observed how he really has to hop and "heave" the ball, remember? Might that somewhat be mistaken for "skillfully moving up in the pocket"?

OK, re. Mac "moving fine laterally" but not "up" in the pocket as perhaps he should per @Ross12 : you seem to be parsing this by suggesting Mac (rightly) lacked confidence in his protection last season considering (A) the OL's personnel/scheme problems and I'll add (B) out-of-sync timing with the receivers via Patricia's bungling. I also will note that (C), Mac was further constrained coming back early from his high ankle sprain and (D), the injury combined with Patricia placing a premium on avoiding turnovers -- PLUS the OL woes PLUS timing issues with receivers -- contributed to Mac noticeably bailing on plays early.

Again, from what Mac showed in 2021 as well as during stretches especially late last season, his pocket movement laterally and vertically appears fine when he has room to maneuver sans the above uniquely mitigating factors. Off the top of my head I can recall completed passes by Mac vs. Baltimore, Minnesota and the second Buffalo game from moving vertically in the pocket, including well past his blockers to the LOS.

To suggest that Zappe negotiates the pocket better than Mac in any respect, especially considering the circumstances of his limited playing sample, just doesn't fly. We need to see more from Bailey vs. stronger defenses than he faced last season to even start that discussion.

 

[Ian]

Off the top of my head I can recall completed passes by Mac vs. Baltimore, Minnesota and the second Buffalo game from moving vertically in the pocket, including well past his blockers to the LOS.

You're definitely right - and I posted several of those a couple of posts earlier (LINK) showing him sliding up and making some great throws. I just haven't gone back through the season yet to try and pinpoint where things might have changed. And Zappe only played two games and I think only took one real bad hit where he got blindsided and - if I recall - lost the ball, so definitely not a good sample size. He might also become a little more skittish if the protection is ever the way it was against a good defense.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Lol. You thought they were going on a Super Bowl run with Bailey Zappe and the Patricia/ Judge offensive juggernaut? I have seen many posts from you Actual, but never one that I considered bash.t crazy. That one however…….

An expression, as an example.

Aside from apprehension about our defense handling the Cincy O-Line, our title chances in '88 had Flutie been kept in there were legit.

Speaking of 'batsh*t crazy', how about the '01 team had Brady been kept in there? I think I've provided enough amusement for tonight.

 

[ctpatsfan77]

This is the single biggest thing that stood out between Zappe and Mac to me. When the pocket tightened, Mac went down or otherwise got erratic; Zappe just slid in the pocket wherever he needed to go and kept his eyes downfield going through his progressions. If Mac can learn to play in the pocket like Zappe then he'll be in a much better spot.

It also helps that they used PA far more with Zappe than they did with Mac.

 

[Joker]

If Zappe was on Carolina's roster or Houston's, what would you all say? Nothing...because if you remove your binocular vision on this subject, Zappe is, at best, a CAREER back-up in this league. It remains to be seen if Mac also fits THAT description.

 

[Huckleberry1]

An expression, as an example.

Aside from apprehension about our defense handling the Cincy O-Line, our title chances in '88 had Flutie been kept in there were legit.

Speaking of 'batsh*t crazy', how about the '01 team had Brady been kept in there? I think I've provided enough amusement for tonight.

Brady had a year under his belt, and his play snd that of the team around him was getting better throughout the season, so there was a basis to believe in them. I don’t think there is any comparison from that team to last year’s Patriotsvteam. There was no point last season where I felt like they were a playoff team, or getting better as the season wore on. That’s not a knock on Zappe, as he played well when he played, but while the defense played well at times the team as a whole never went on a run where I felt like they were putting it together, and were going to be a tough team to beat.

There will be a QB competition this year, and if Zappe has grasped the offense as well as Brady had in his 2nd season then Jones is going to have a battle on his hands, as I think that was the primary reason Belichick went back to Iones when he returned from injury.

 

[Huckleberry1]

No way Belichick gives up two first-round picks for him, or I should say, I'd be shocked if that happened. The best you might be willing to hope for would be for him to hit free agency and come here that way, because this remains a team in need of adding talented young depth and that's just far too high a price to give up for him.

I think Belichick would be willing to give up two 1st’s for a franchise QB, and Jackson was a league MVP, so he has the to be put in that category. What I don’t see him giving up is the $$$$$$$$ to cause Baltimore to not match the deal. And when you think about it that it is to Belichick’s credit, because most coaches/ GM’s with the power to make that decision would most likely do it, especially at the end of their career, and with the all time wins record in sight. If it were Parcells he would absolutely do it, as he wouldn’t care what happened to the salary cap or team once he was gone. And in this case Belichick might have Kraft on his side in terms of going for it now, as like Belichick he too is at the end of his tenure as owner of the franchise, and he could also want to win one more on the way out.

 

[DarrylS]

I am solidly in the Mac Camp, and will reconsider if he does not flourish in the O run by BOB, last year was a cluster.... of unimaginable proportions from minicamp on. We heard about adjustment issues early and they were magnified during the season.
So will remain on board and anticipate a huge improvement this year, a few more weapons might be helpful. My hope is that Mac has not lost his confidence and will not play "scared".