Did Kraft put BB on notice?

[AQPE]

Another day, another awkward statement from Kraft. Thankfully we only have a small number of them reported. He’s not eloquent to say the least

 

[Wozzy]

I'm not a Vick fan. I think he fits most of the criticisms you throw at Lamar who to me is a noticeably better player than Vick. Cunningham's best moments were better than Vick's also. Cunningham had a few really impressive seasons.

There's nothing noticeably better about Lamar's first four seasons as a starter versus Vick's.

The discrepancy in overall production and effciency is easily explained in how the NFL has changed from now to then.

 

[203Pat]

If I had to guess about what would happen if BB suddenly had a debilitating illness that forced him from coaching tomorrow I think Billy O'Brien would instantly take over as head coach. No offense to Mayo but experience would trump feelings.

I would honestly rather BOB because in today's NFL I would always rather have an offensive minded coach but I think Mayo would have a 50/50 shot.

 

[crawhammer]

Lamar Jackson throws the fewest pass attempts in the NFL every season for a reason.

QB leaders in rushing attempts since Lamar Jackson entered the NFL in 2018:

1. Lamar Jackson (727)
2. Josh Allen (546)
3. Kyler Murray (381)

QB leaders in rushing yards since Lamar Jackson entered the NFL in 2018:

1. Lamar Jackson (4437)
2. Josh Allen (3087)
3. Kyler Murray (2204)

There's your reason.

 

[Wozzy]

I would honestly rather BOB because in today's NFL I would always rather have an offensive minded coach but I think Mayo would have a 50/50 shot.

I would also, Bob had a winning record with the Texans and his own GM did everything in his power to get him fired. With Groh running personnel, I could see them keep on winning.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Seems that way.

Yup, shots fired! It's Kraft's way of saying, hey I believe in you Bill, but you better make me look good for having faith in you or some things will have to change. Bob Kraft is the master of 'passive aggressive' praise. That's how he likes to do it.

This phrase here is the not so veiled threat/ultimatum: But in the end, this is a business. You either execute and win or you don’t.

 

[Wozzy]

QB leaders in rushing attempts since Lamar Jackson entered the NFL in 2018:

1. Lamar Jackson (727)
2. Josh Allen (546)
3. Kyler Murray (381)

QB leaders in rushing yards since Lamar Jackson entered the NFL in 2018:

1. Lamar Jackson (4437)
2. Josh Allen (3087)
3. Kyler Murray (2204)

There's your reason.

Passing is the job.

 

[VJCPatriot]

Passing is the job.

Scoring touchdowns is actually the job.

QB A - 4 passing touchdowns
QB B - 2 passing touchdowns, 2 rushing touchdowns
QB C - 3 rushing touchdowns, 1 passing touchdowns

They all did their job.

 

[crawhammer]

Passing is the job.

Do you understand what is a Running QB? Dual-threat QB?

 

[Love The Drake]

Another day, another awkward statement from Kraft. Thankfully we only have a small number of them reported. He’s not eloquent to say the least

Is there another one I wasn’t aware of?

 

[jeremy2020]

Do you understand what is a Running QB? Dual-threat QB?

You have to pass well to be a dual threat.

 

[TheRainMaker]

You have to pass well to be a dual threat.

Since being a full time starting QB, he averages 25 passing TD's per year and only 8 INT's. This would be higher if he didn't miss games which has only been 8 in 4 years. Joe Burrow has missed an entire season. The Ravens organization has done a terrible job surrounding him with talent.

 

[IcyPatriot]

 

[patfanken]

He's 26. He's made the playoffs every season when he was healthy at the end. The Ravens have completely fallen apart two seasons in a row without Lamar. In fact since he's been on the team, they're 45-16 with him and 8-13 without him. Those 45 wins are tied for the 6th-most through 61 career regular season starts by any quarterback since 1950. In his first full season as the starter he became the second youngest MVP in NFL history. And he already has the 5th-most rushing yards by a quarterback in NFL history.

Amazing that we are back with the same old arguments pro and con about Lamar Jackson. But here's the thing. There is a REASON why the NFL has flirted with running QB's for YEARS going back 80 years when the league transitioned from the single wing to the T-formation. Some of the formations I see today remind me of single wing concepts. Same shotgun snaps, multi-directional movement by the backs, and run/pass options for the QB. This isn't new, in fact its REALLY old. The only difference is the quality, speed and size of the athlete's running it.

But in the end THIS debate on Jackson shouldn't BE about what Jackson has done so far. The question rather should be about what you can expect to get out of him for the fully guaranteed contract he is going to want over the next 3-5. Think about this Craw. There is a reason why RB's are a relative fungable position where the value of the player erodes after 4-6 years. It's about the beating these guys take and what it takes out of their games. TIME and TIME again, team have given big 2nd contracts to quality RB's and have ended up regretting it. The fact is the just don't hold up and by 30 most are just done.

Now you're a stats guy, In one post you mentioned Jackson had 727 rushing attempts in his career, by far the most for a QB since 2018, around 145 attempts per year In comparison Rham had 210 last year as our first rushing option (after 133 in 2021). From what I gather 210 attempts is about what you'd expect from your top RB these days though guys like Barkley and Henry get 300 some years.

But you get the point. Add sacks and QB hits, Lamar has already taken way more hits than ANY QB in the league, and he's NOT 250 like Allen. It IS going to take a toll. Even you have to admit it. He is NOT going to be the same player 3-5 years from now. He is going to slow down. He is going to be hurt even more. It is just the physics of the game and UNLESS his game radically evolves and becomes more like Mahome's it is going to flame out EVENTUALLY, like RGIII's did.

Now I HATE to defend anything about the Ravens, BUT they have taken a lot of heat lately for not giving Jackson any star WR's. But what they did was MUCH better. That created a unique offense that highlighted his skill set and drafted FOR those skills. Spread formations and speedy WR's would have improved his passing stats but would have also gotten him killed when he ran the ball. So the Raven drafted FOR those sets of skills, big tough FB's and TE's, Strong OL's and Tight formations. Doesn't look pretty, but it was amazingly effective, especially the first 3 years before defenses started to catch up and Lamar thrived in it. But he's been in the league 5 years and only played in the last game of the season twice.

I'd be fine with giving him 90MM guaranteed for 2 years with a team option for a third at $50MM guaranteed 4/1 of the 3rd year. Anything longer would be nuts. Simple truth

Craw you keep focusing on citing INDIVIDUAL facts, and they ARE quite impressive. But the TEAM results are not....so far. Plus remember have a QB with the kind of cap hit that Jackson wants GUARANTEED, means it will be THAT much harder to build a TEAM around him that can win a superbowl on both sides of the ball.

simple cap fact, for every dollar you give one player there is one less dollar to give everyone else. Hard to build a superbowl roster that is one deeps

 

[crawhammer]

Amazing that we are back with the same old arguments pro and con about Lamar Jackson. But here's the thing. There is a REASON why the NFL has flirted with running QB's for YEARS going back 80 years when the league transitioned from the single wing to the T-formation. Some of the formations I see today remind me of single wing concepts. Same shotgun snaps, multi-directional movement by the backs, and run/pass options for the QB. This isn't new, in fact its REALLY old. The only difference is the quality, speed and size of the athlete's running it.

But in the end THIS debate on Jackson shouldn't BE about what Jackson has done so far. The question rather should be about what you can expect to get out of him for the fully guaranteed contract he is going to want over the next 3-5. Think about this Craw. There is a reason why RB's are a relative fungable position where the value of the player erodes after 4-6 years. It's about the beating these guys take and what it takes out of their games. TIME and TIME again, team have given big 2nd contracts to quality RB's and have ended up regretting it. The fact is the just don't hold up and by 30 most are just done.

Now you're a stats guy, In one post you mentioned Jackson had 727 rushing attempts in his career, by far the most for a QB since 2018, around 145 attempts per year In comparison Rham had 210 last year as our first rushing option (after 133 in 2021). From what I gather 210 attempts is about what you'd expect from your top RB these days though guys like Barkley and Henry get 300 some years.

But you get the point. Add sacks and QB hits, Lamar has already taken way more hits than ANY QB in the league, and he's NOT 250 like Allen. It IS going to take a toll. Even you have to admit it. He is NOT going to be the same player 3-5 years from now. He is going to slow down. He is going to be hurt even more. It is just the physics of the game and UNLESS his game radically evolves and becomes more like Mahome's it is going to flame out EVENTUALLY, like RGIII's did.

Now I HATE to defend anything about the Ravens, BUT they have taken a lot of heat lately for not giving Jackson any star WR's. But what they did was MUCH better. That created a unique offense that highlighted his skill set and drafted FOR those skills. Spread formations and speedy WR's would have improved his passing stats but would have also gotten him killed when he ran the ball. So the Raven drafted FOR those sets of skills, big tough FB's and TE's, Strong OL's and Tight formations. Doesn't look pretty, but it was amazingly effective, especially the first 3 years before defenses started to catch up and Lamar thrived in it. But he's been in the league 5 years and only played in the last game of the season twice.

I'd be fine with giving him 90MM guaranteed for 2 years with a team option for a third at $50MM guaranteed 4/1 of the 3rd year. Anything longer would be nuts. Simple truth

Craw you keep focusing on citing INDIVIDUAL facts, and they ARE quite impressive. But the TEAM results are not....so far. Plus remember have a QB with the kind of cap hit that Jackson wants GUARANTEED, means it will be THAT much harder to build a TEAM around him that can win a superbowl on both sides of the ball.

simple cap fact, for every dollar you give one player there is one less dollar to give everyone else. Hard to build a superbowl roster that is one deeps

Excellent post. Especially how you fleshed out your points. Ultimately it sounds like you're willing to commit to Lamar for 2-3 seasons, which is fine, especially since it coincides with BB's retirement timeline. BB's experience coupled with an elite football player like Lamar sounds like a good idea to me. I don't think that specific type of contract is going to fly with Lamar however, so it will take more and that's where we separate because I'm willing to full on commit to Lamar for 5 years if that's what it takes.

Honestly if we gets 2 or 3 seasons of Lamar at his ceiling and he flames out by years 4 and 5 then I'm ok with that because it'll be 2-3 seasons of seriously being in contention. The way I see it is the alternative is middling results with Mediocre Mac for the next 3-5 seasons... will he even be good enough to sign to that second hefty contract? Doubtful. Zappe might be better then Mac but my guess is he's not good enough either.

Are we getting Hopkins? Or some better WR1 for Mac/Zappe by the start of 2023? The team as currently constituted doesn't have a strong enough supporting cast to carry a moderate QB talent. Lamar on the other hand would make our offense exponentially more dangerous.

 

[FCB02062]

I certainly hope Kraft put Bill the Coach and Bill the GM on proper notice.....Coach Bill of the 6-22 record vs non scrub or rookie QBs....a complete and utter failure vs any good quarterbacks from the 2020 season to last season....that's a performance that gets coachea fired

 

[FCB02062]

the bird brain likes going 6-22 vs non-scrubs apparently. Prescott, Russel Wilson w Payton, Jimmy G, Tua 2x, Rodgers 2x, Allen 2x, Mahomes, Hurts, Herbert, D Jones.... that's 13 games vs non-scrubs....based on Bill the Coach's absolutely embarrassing record the last 3 years vs good QBs (21% winning pct), The Pats will likely win around 3 games of those 13. So out of Washington, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Indianapolis, Pats take 3 or split.... we're looking at 5 or 6 wins in 2023.
let's all hope that Belichick miraculously turns into a winning coach without #12, because facts are facts and in the words of a great coach who's won everywhere he's coached with numerous quarterbacks..."you are what your record says you are", and the Patriots are a sub .500 team over the last 3 seasons...

 

[TheRainMaker]

I certainly hope Kraft put Bill the Coach and Bill the GM on proper notice.....Coach Bill of the 6-22 record vs non scrub or rookie QBs....a complete and utter failure vs any good quarterbacks from the 2020 season to last season....that's a performance that gets coachea fired

the bird brain likes going 6-22 vs non-scrubs apparently. Prescott, Russel Wilson w Payton, Jimmy G, Tua 2x, Rodgers 2x, Allen 2x, Mahomes, Hurts, Herbert, D Jones.... that's 13 games vs non-scrubs....based on Bill the Coach's absolutely embarrassing record the last 3 years vs good QBs (21% winning pct), The Pats will likely win around 3 games of those 13. So out of Washington, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, Indianapolis, Pats take 3 or split.... we're looking at 5 or 6 wins in 2023.
let's all hope that Belichick miraculously turns into a winning coach without #12, because facts are facts and in the words of a great coach who's won everywhere he's coached with numerous quarterbacks..."you are what your record says you are", and the Patriots are a sub .500 team over the last 3 seasons...

The Pats offense stinks which is one reason for the losing record vs competent teams, but what isn't talked about enough is how Bill's scheme hasn't fazed competent QB's for quite some time. Rob Ninkovich, Ty Law, Teddy Brushci and Ted Johnson have mentioned competent offenses are given little to no resistance. A big part of it is the lack of talent on that side of the ball. Bill could transform the D with a better MLB and an outside CB.

Not sure where you got the 6-22 record, but I have 10-20 vs teams at .500 since 2020.

 

[FCB02062]

The Pats offense stinks which is one reason for the losing record vs competent teams, but what isn't talked about enough is how Bill's scheme hasn't phased competent QB's for quite some time. Rob Ninkovich, Ty Law and Teddy Brushci and Ted Johnson have mentioned competent offenses are given little to no resistance. A big part of it is the lack of talent on that side of the ball. Bill could transform the D with a better MLB and an outside CB.

Not sure where you got the 6-22 record, but I have 10-20 vs teams at .500 since 2020.

here.... my post from another thread.... there no way the Belichick fanboys can refute this... he sucks without #12

 

[patfanken]

Excellent post. Especially how you fleshed out your points. Ultimately it sounds like you're willing to commit to Lamar for 2-3 seasons, which is fine, especially since it coincides with BB's retirement timeline. BB's experience coupled with an elite football player like Lamar sounds like a good idea to me. I don't think that specific type of contract is going to fly with Lamar however, so it will take more and that's where we separate because I'm willing to full on commit to Lamar for 5 years if that's what it takes.

Honestly if we gets 2 or 3 seasons of Lamar at his ceiling and he flames out by years 4 and 5 then I'm ok with that because it'll be 2-3 seasons of seriously being in contention. The way I see it is the alternative is middling results with Mediocre Mac for the next 3-5 seasons... will he even be good enough to sign to that second hefty contract? Doubtful. Zappe might be better then Mac but my guess is he's not good enough either.

Are we getting Hopkins? Or some better WR1 for Mac/Zappe by the start of 2023? The team as currently constituted doesn't have a strong enough supporting cast to carry a moderate QB talent. Lamar on the other hand would make our offense exponentially more dangerous.

But here's the thing again. For the next 2 years WITH Jackson you have to account for around a $50MM cap hit each year, and unless you can figure out a way to improve his passing game and limit his rushing attempts to 50-70 a year instead of 145, the likelihood he is going to be healthy for the playoffs will decrease every year he plays for us.

We have a LOT of cap space over the next 2 years, but we also have a just a few signed beyond 2023 (around 23 IIRC), so we will need to use a LOT of that cap space in filling out a squad of quality players. So it won't be limitless. One of my pet peeves in reporting cap space is they rarely use BOTH figures. The amount of space AND the # of players signed. You need both to really understand what the team can do.'

Right now I believe that Mac CAN develop into a nice starting QB in the Kirk Cousins mode. Surround him with a quality team and as he gets better we can be a championship contender AND when it comes time to extend him he becomes a $25MM/yr QB not a 50MM one.
But at least for the next 3 years we will be able to surround him with better and better players

The thing I can't seem to get passed with Lamar is the "availability" question. BUT that being said, if you felt that he could be effective AND put himself a lot less at risk then you have to look at him hard to see if he had that in him.