The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[Joker]

Jones is going into his thrid season on a rookie deal...he's not now nor was he ever going to be traded, moved, cut demoted or any other fairy story you clowns want to constantly dream up. It's sink or swim time for the kid. No one knows what will happen but Mac WILL be the starting QB in 2023. Stop masturbating about all your little binkie options to the contrary.

 

[Kasmir]

Ranking of all NFL QB's by the guy whose video I posted when I opened this thread:



I think it's well done; I like this guy's thinking.

 

[crawhammer]

You're comparing apples to oranges as well as cherrypicking.

It's this simple. You essentially said the Ravens pass defense wasn't bad when they played the Patriots in week 3 so it was understandable Mac had 0 TDs and 3 INTs. Right, they weren't just bad, they got completely humiliated by Tua in week 2. He had 4 TDs in the 4th quarter alone. It's not cherry picking when you say "at that juncture" and I point to the week before.

All things aren't equal with those teams/game situations and the Patriots, as I pointed out.

Totally agree. And there are several variables you can cherry pick here. The popular Mac scapegoat is Patricia. But let's not act like Tua didn't have a first time head coach while Mac has an all time great head coach in his 28th season. Should be clear advantage Mac.

But the bottom line in all this conflation you're pursuing, of course, is making a case against Mac. Which doesn't interest me, primarily because it's a DOA exercise in pointless negativity.

I made a week to week comparison, I didn't conflate anything. And it's not an exercise in negativity just for the sake of it, I made a point, which you said was misleading so I explained how it wasn't.

 

[crawhammer]

Jones is going into his thrid season on a rookie deal...he's not now nor was he ever going to be traded, moved, cut demoted or any other fairy story you clowns want to constantly dream up. It's sink or swim time for the kid. No one knows what will happen but Mac WILL be the starting QB in 2023. Stop masturbating about all your little binkie options to the contrary.

Talk to the Mod then. He tagged an Albert Breer article about trading Mac and then speculated on how it could make sense. I'm pretty sure that kicked off these discussions. What else do you want to discuss? The Conor McDermott signing. Slate.

 

[40yrpatsfan]

Actually all you did was cite statistics, not comment on the actual play.

 

[Tunescribe]

It's this simple. You essentially said the Ravens pass defense wasn't bad when they played the Patriots in week 3 so it was understandable Mac had 0 TDs and 3 INTs. Right, they weren't just bad, they got completely humiliated by Tua in week 2. He had 4 TDs in the 4th quarter alone. It's not cherry picking when you say "at that juncture" and I point to the week before.


Totally agree. And there are several variables you can cherry pick here. The popular Mac scapegoat is Patricia. But let's not act like Tua didn't have a first time head coach while Mac has an all time great head coach in his 28th season. Should be clear advantage Mac.


I made a week to week comparison, I didn't conflate anything. And it's not an exercise in negativity just for the sake of it, I made a point, which you said was misleading so I explained how it wasn't.

Have you been taking lessons from Andy Johnson (Ring6)? The reaches you make are ridiculously outlandish. Calling Patricia a mere "popular scapegoat" then suggesting Mac had a clear advantage facing Baltimore because of BB? You either are woefully misinformed or just don't care. There is no point or logic to your negativity, you're just arguing for the sake of argument as in the Slater signing thread.

 

[Joker]

Talk to the Mod then. He tagged an Albert Breer article about trading Mac and then speculated on how it could make sense. I'm pretty sure that kicked off these discussions. What else do you want to discuss? The Conor McDermott signing. Slate.

No..I'm talking to YOU...you're a pathological nutcase spewing fantasy scenarios you dream up in that "fantasy football" cranium of yours on a daily basis. There is a stark difference between the fantasies of a paid NFL bullshyt artist and actual reality.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I do think Patricia was an almost uniquely bad OC in the modern era, but Mac still did worse in the areas he still had control over on top of that.

I hope most Pats fans feel this way. And we can stop with blaming Patricia for everything or pretending Mac completely sucks. I get people gravitate towards extremes but this was as clear as anything.

Patricia is a meatball but Mac's mechanics, TO's/decision making, wilting under *immediate* pressure/trouble with second level pressure either predate sausage-head or have nothing to do with Patricia if we're being honest. That said Patricia was very bad and might be the biggest stain on Bill's resume. Certainly post-Brady.

 

[Ollie]

Totally agree. And there are several variables you can cherry pick here. The popular Mac scapegoat is Patricia. But let's not act like Tua didn't have a first time head coach while Mac has an all time great head coach in his 28th season. Should be clear advantage Mac.

Cmon As you say there are several variables here but regardless of first time coach or otherwise McDaniels is a very highly rated offensive mind whereas Mac had Patrica who will most likely never get near an offense again. Tua also had Waddle and Hill and Mac had Meyers and Parker.

 

[Ollie]

I hope most Pats fans feel this way. And we can stop with blaming Patricia for everything or pretending Mac completely sucks. I get people gravitate towards extremes but this was as clear as anything.

Patricia is a meatball but Mac's mechanics, TO's/decision making, wilting under *immediate* pressure/trouble with second level pressure either predate sausage-head or have nothing to do with Patricia if we're being honest. That said Patricia was very bad and might be the biggest stain on Bill's resume. Certainly post-Brady.

Do you not think coaching affects decision making, mechanics etc? Look at Daniel Jones this year. Not amazing but much better. Mac had Judge as QB coach and MP as OC and virtually no RT all year. Macs decision making and mechanics got worse from year 1-2. Mac at the end of his first year was starting to develop some pocket presence (not great but it was improving) this went back massively in yr 2. It's hard to to pin that at least in part to the situation he was put in. Some of it is how he handled it which i don't think was great but coaching matters. Thats undeniable.
I'm not a Mac apologist. In fact i don't really like him much as a person from what i can see so far and i think he will always be limited as a QB but he was put in an awful situation last year and i think that makes it very hard to come to any useful judgement about him from it.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Do you not think coaching affects decision making, mechanics etc? Look at Daniel Jones this year. Not amazing but much better. Mac had Judge as QB coach and MP as OC and virtually no RT all year. Macs decision making and mechanics got worse from year 1-2. Mac at the end of his first year was starting to develop some pocket presence (not great but it was improving) this went back massively in yr 2. It's hard to to pin that at least in part to the situation he was put in. Some of it is how he handled it which i don't think was great but coaching matters. Thats undeniable.
I'm not a Mac apologist. In fact i don't really like him much as a person from what i can see so far and i think he will always be limited as a QB but he was put in an awful situation last year and i think that makes it very hard to come to any useful judgement about him from it.

I've already been through this but blaming Patricia for his mechanics is kind of weak to me for several reasons.

Mac's trouble with mechanics predate Patricia/Judge. They actually weren't that good or great Y1 either. I talked a good deal about it before the draft. So again going to House didn't surprise me.
Also not all OC/QB are made the same. Some have specific experience helping and developing QB's. Some excel in design and scheme. Some have a OL background. So just bc someone is an OC doesn't make them qualified. Judge might have been a QB coach in title but blaming or pointing to him for something that's ultimately on Mac isn't it. It would be great if we had someone with actual expertise but we knew going in Judge never really developed a QB. Ultimately his mechanics are his responsibility and I can tell you for a fact there's many QB in this league that wouldn't listen to their QB coach when it comes to mechanics anyway. That's a trusted, long-term development. You don't just allow anyone in that space believe it or not. No for most part, the best are working with people they've spent thousands of hours with. They want their coaches to design the plays, give input of coverages, something they might have missed, specific details on opposing players etc.

The idea that Patricia or Judge is responsible for Jones shakey mechanics is kind of laughable when you really think about it. It's never been eithers space and the issue predates both. It would be great if they had experience in that area but again we knew they didn't going in.

 

[Tunescribe]

Mac's mechanics, TO's/decision making, wilting under *immediate* pressure/trouble with second level pressure either predate sausage-head or have nothing to do with Patricia if we're being honest.

I'm surprised at you for saying this. When the kid is thrust into trying to navigate a house-of-cards offense where everything from protection to timing to receiver route running is out of sync and up for grabs on any given play, OF COURSE he's going to lose confidence and look like crap. You can't myopically assess quarterback play in a vacuum and that's what too many people here are guilty of with all this over-the-top Mac bashing.

Do you not think coaching affects decision making, mechanics etc? Look at Daniel Jones this year. Not amazing but much better. Mac had Judge as QB coach and MP as OC and virtually no RT all year. Macs decision making and mechanics got worse from year 1-2. Mac at the end of his first year was starting to develop some pocket presence (not great but it was improving) this went back massively in yr 2. It's hard to to pin that at least in part to the situation he was put in. Some of it is how he handled it which i don't think was great but coaching matters. Thats undeniable.
I'm not a Mac apologist. In fact i don't really like him much as a person from what i can see so far and i think he will always be limited as a QB but he was put in an awful situation last year and i think that makes it very hard to come to any useful judgement about him from it.

Yes.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Also can we stop bringing up Daniel Jones lol??? His passing stats really weren't that different and upside us in his legs. I'm actually a fan of him and had him graded out similarly to Mac. He's not someone to point at though.

ANY/A
2022 - 2023
5.62 2022 5.89

YA
6.7 - 6.8

NY/A
5.92 - 5.74

AY/A
6.4 - 6.9

TD INT
10 7

15 5

Mind you he missed 5-6 games in 21. He improved but it really wasn't substantial and again all his upside is in his legs.

I generally hope we throw everything at helping Mac reach his peak. I smile every time I hear Higgins or Aiyuk or someone else mentioned coming here.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

I'm surprised at you for saying this. When the kid is thrust into trying to navigate a house-of-cards offense where everything from protection to timing to receiver route running is out of sync and up for grabs on any given play, OF COURSE he's going to lose confidence and look like crap. You can't myopically assess quarterback play in a vacuum and that's what too many people here are guilty of with all this over-the-top Mac bashing.



Yes.

I outlined why it's foolish to blame those two for his mechanics. I'd love to hear a real counter but I'm not getting that. And when I hear "anti-Mac" or we it's tough to take them serious. There's a tiny minority that really don't like Mac. Most are pretty level headed about him.

Again it would be nice to have a QB coach with that type of experience. We didn't have that, which is on Bill, not Mac. And these problems go back to Bama. They actually were there in Y1 and obviously an issue considering Mac went to House.

Yes of course it doesnt help when things fall apart around you but that's NOT an excuse to fall apart yourself. Or resort to messy mechanics when things go bad.

Again most QB's work with specialized, specific people for that stuff. Not two Chooch's brought in off the apple cart hours before the season. They weren't qualified as it was for the basics nevermind tweaking a QB mechanics.

There's plenty to blame those two about. They were very bad but Mac's mechanics are on him more than anyone else. The fact that the OL was **** or Patricia was a meatball doesn't excuse Mac of sloppy footwork or release points. Or the fact that he can't ID second level pressure to save his life.

 

[Tunescribe]

I outlined why it's foolish to blame those two for his mechanics. I'd love to hear a real counter but I'm not getting that. And when I hear "anti-Mac" or we it's tough to take them serious. There's a tiny minority that really don't like Mac. Most are pretty level headed about him.

Again it would be nice to have a QB coach with that type of experience. We didn't have that, which is on Bill, not Mac. And these problems go back to Bama. They actually were there in Y1 and obviously an issue considering Mac went to House.

Yes of course it doesnt help when things fall apart around you but that's NOT an excuse to fall apart yourself. Or resort to messy mechanics when things go bad.

Again most QB's work with specialized, specific people for that stuff. Not two Chooch's brought in off the apple cart hours before the season. They weren't qualified as it was for the basics nevermind tweaking a QB mechanics.

There's plenty to blame those two about. They were very bad but Mac's mechanics are on him more than anyone else. The fact that the OL was **** or Patricia was a meatball doesn't excuse Mac of sloppy footwork or release points. Or the fact that he can't ID second level pressure to save his life.

Solid mechanics are important but I fear you're overemphasizing and putting too fine a point on this. Aaron Rodgers' mechanics are terrible in the conventional sense but he's managed pretty well largely through consistency enabled by continuity. Decision-making off pre- and post-snap reads is where the rubber hits the road in QB play and again, Mac's ability to do anything WITH CONSISTENCY suffered last season from the slipshod manner in which things were handled around him. Adjusting for the unexpected from an opponent is challenging enough. Continually having to adjust for the unexpected from your own people as well as the opponent is going to mess with a quarterback's game down to basic fundamentals including footwork and throwing mechanics.

 

[sb1]

I like the fact Mac has experience in big games with the spotlight on and a huge audience. He knows what those games are like. The Brady bowl in Foxboro in 2021 is one such game and he played well despite it being just his 4th game of his career. Obviously the National Championship is another. The finale in Buffalo this past season with the Hamlin situation and a very emotional team lining up against him. He also has a playoff game under his belt in the same hostile road environment. So he’s not a newbie to all of that.

If things go really well for him and the Patriots over the next little while maybe we’ll see him in more big games.

 

[Kasmir]

I hope most Pats fans feel this way. And we can stop with blaming Patricia for everything or pretending Mac completely sucks. I get people gravitate towards extremes but this was as clear as anything.

Patricia is a meatball but Mac's mechanics, TO's/decision making, wilting under *immediate* pressure/trouble with second level pressure either predate sausage-head or have nothing to do with Patricia if we're being honest. That said Patricia was very bad and might be the biggest stain on Bill's resume. Certainly post-Brady.

C'mon while there's some truth in what you say it doesn't explain Mac's catastrophic regression from 2021 to 2022. By any measure he was *much* worse. Same receivers too -- plus DeVante Parker! So what changed? Also look at Trevor Lawrence 2021 to 2022; he was far worse than Mac in 2021 and far better in 2022. Clearly the respective coaching changes are implicated in both cases.

 

[crawhammer]

Have you been taking lessons from Andy Johnson (Ring6)?

No.

The reaches you make are ridiculously outlandish.

Comparing results from week 2 to week 3. Not a reach in the slightest.

Calling Patricia a mere "popular scapegoat"

I didn't say "merely." Patricia is a total loser, I have zero confidence in his coaching capabilities, but apparently BB thinks he's good enough to put in charge of his franchise quarterback. In the Slater thread, I got it shoved down my throat how BB said Slater is an all time great STer so it must be true. IBWT.

BB loves Patricia but I think he's an incompetent. I also think it's true that the Mac apologists are using Patricia to excuse away Mac's poor play. That's called scapegoating.

then suggesting Mac had a clear advantage facing Baltimore because of BB?

BB doesn't give his players an advantage? And not the cheating advantages that @MAC10 accuses him of. 28 years of head coaching experience and knowledge, the majority of it successfully. IBWT, right?

Tua had a head coach with 1 game's worth of experience and he went off for 469 yards and 6 TDs against the Baltimore defense. Mac had Belichick and he managed 0 TDs and 3 INTs. This isn't just fantasy football talk either... Tua and the Dolphins won their game, Mac and the Patriots lost. QB play and game results are not just a coincidence.

You either are woefully misinformed or just don't care.

About what?

There is no point or logic to your negativity, you're just arguing for the sake of argument as in the Slater signing thread.

I'm here to talk about the Patriots and the NFL. Everything single thread on the forum is full of opinions, debates and "arguments." There's positivity and negativity coming from every one of us.

 

[crawhammer]

No..I'm talking to YOU...you're a pathological nutcase spewing fantasy scenarios you dream up in that "fantasy football" cranium of yours on a daily basis. There is a stark difference between the fantasies of a paid NFL bullshyt artist and actual reality.

lol you feel better now?

You said this...

Jones is going into his thrid season on a rookie deal...he's not now nor was he ever going to be traded, moved, cut demoted or any other fairy story you clowns want to constantly dream up.

The Mod got this going so you're talking to him too. And the many other people who have speculated about Mac's future with the team.

You don't know much about fantasy football either. It's about cumulative individual stats with no bearing on team or game results (other than the DEF position).

Stats are important in the fantasy leagues and the actual NFL. But not once have I ever brought a fantasy football tabulation or result into a discussion about an actual NFL football game.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Matt Cassel ranks Mac Jones among the worst QB’s in the league.