The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[Real fan 02]

The biggest issue is he's still a young kid and they do need to surround him with better talent, there's no question there. That's a trend we're seeing around the league and most young quarterbacks have a better cast around them than Mac has.

And as we saw in Jacksonville - and even with the Giants - coaching definitely matters. I looked and there were a fair amount of Jaguars fans who were done with Lawrence after last season and some of the conversations were similar to here, with some even continuing to hate on Lawrence even after a solid bounce-back season. That's sort of my concern here is that people will become so blinded by their opinions that they'll fail to see the forest through the trees. We need him to get better and play well, or we're going to be in tough shape.

I was won over by Mac his rookie season... after seeing the QB play of cam.. Mac was a revelation... he gave the fans some optimism..

Jax is the perfect comparison.. they rebuilt thier team similar to us.. a high draft pick in Lawrence, some FA signings..

A stout defense and good RB room..

Like us coaching most certainly was thier issue with Myer.

Your right we need to surround him with some talent.. I'm definitely optimistic about the upcoming season for sure!!

 

[sb1]

Ask the Buffalo Bills what QB purgatory is like.

After Jim Kelly it went Todd Collins - Flutie - Rob Johnson - Van Pelt - Drew. Then after Drew it went- JP Losman (1st round bust) - Trent Edwards - Fitz - EJ Manuel (1st round bust) - Thad Lewis - Kyle Orton - Tyrod Taylor (with their first playoff appearance since Flutie) and after that only then they found Josh Allen. Took only 20 years.

I don't want us to experience that. Let's hope Mac is legit.

 

[Rob0729]

The NFL actually did this little documentary video prior to last season, which I came across last night and it was pretty well done. It won't embed, but you can obviously watch it on YouTube:

It's funny how some on this board have either dismissed or rewritten the history of Jones' rookie season and making his play this past season, despite all the issues everywhere else on the offense from the coaching to the o-line to receivers, what Jones has been from the start. And even then, they only see Jones as what he was early and mid-season and not what he was down the stretch where he wasn't that bad despite the issues around him.

Again, I am optimistic that now that he has O'Brien he can build on what he did in his rookie season and become a top 10 QB. I don't think it is a given it will happen, but I see little from this past season that can be used as a barometer of whether he will succede or fail because of the extraordinary conditions he was under. But I will say this, if he combine his strengths of 2021 (good decision making, good pocket presence, quick release, etc.) and his strengths of 2022 (big play ability), he might be a better QB than most of the people on this board think.

 

[Wozzy]

Brady made the Pats OL the best in the NFL.

Brady and the offensive coaches made an already good offensive line better. Give us a break. Brady didn’t help them run block at all.

Mahomes has an arm to fear and he gets the ball away quickly.

He also has one of the best offensive lines in the league and the preeminent offensive genius as his coordinator.

When your QB is noodle armed and slow, its a bad combination. The offense suffers. The OL cant hold their blocks all day.

Mac has shown his arm isn’t the problem… no more than Kirk Cousins arm is a problem. He needs to prove his decision making has advanced and last season was a lost season. “Weak arm” is nonsense. Most passes don’t travel beyond 20 air yards. The coaches have to do a better job in 2023.

 

[Ian]

It's funny how some on this board have either dismissed or rewritten the history of Jones' rookie season and making his play this past season, despite all the issues everywhere else on the offense from the coaching to the o-line to receivers, what Jones has been from the start. And even then, they only see Jones as what he was early and mid-season and not what he was down the stretch where he wasn't that bad despite the issues around him.

Again, I am optimistic that now that he has O'Brien he can build on what he did in his rookie season and become a top 10 QB. I don't think it is a given it will happen, but I see little from this past season that can be used as a barometer of whether he will succede or fail because of the extraordinary conditions he was under. But I will say this, if he combine his strengths of 2021 (good decision making, good pocket presence, quick release, etc.) and his strengths of 2022 (big play ability), he might be a better QB than most of the people on this board think.

When you're coming off of Brady, and play in a Division with Josh Allen and a Conference with Mahomes, it just sets a tough bar. People want to obviously become a contender again and without a perceived elite QB, it feels impossible.

People don't view Mac as elite, but I feel like that's sort of an obvious thing because the kid's in his second season and he won most of those games as a rookie with his head. He's got a decent arm, which is all you need to be able to be successful. You saw what he did late in the year when they had moments and what he did in the first half against Buffalo at the end. The potential is clearly there.

But the bar needs to be lowered. They need him to essentially do what Brady did in his first few seasons and that's move the ball and score points, regardless of how it happens. Their red zone offense was bad last year and that wasn't all on Mac. Again, Patricia's biggest weakness was adjusting mid-game and in the moment. The stats prove it (1st and 3rd QTR were their strongest).

Again, not that it matters. This is year three and he'll need to take a big step forward in order to prove he's the guy or they won't pick up his option. All I'm saying is for people to let it play out and not be constantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. As I told @JR52, it's cool to criticize, but there's constructive criticism and then there's just constantly killing the kid and making the threads tough to want to delve into. That's something I'd like to see people start getting a little better about.

 

[Ian]

Also, when Buffalo got knocked out, a lot of people on that board who apparently didn't like Allen the way people don't like Mac, immediately started jumped on Allen about his mechanics, decision-making, etc. and how "he's not the guy." It's just a strange dynamic and it's certainly not exclusive to here.

 

[Wozzy]

Over the last two seasons (also of course Mac's first two seasons), Meyers led the team in targets (222), receptions (150), and yards (1670).

For an anemic offense especially, those are some big numbers.

Even with Meyers, the team is short a true WR1, having also to replace Agholor (I suppose in theory that'll be Thornton), and then Meyers too if he signs elsewhere.

If Meyers leaves then BB has to find two WR's near the top of the depth chart. Based on BB's overall track record with receivers, I'm not trusting that. Are you?

Meyers is good and I don’t want to insult him because he has done everything the team has asked of him and been a good soldier.

That being said he has played in the slot and the offense has always been designed to own the middle of the field. We have a long history of slot receiver success, TE success and third down back success for a reason. The offense is geared towards feeding those guys.

Bourne or another WR could play exclusively in the slot and put up numbers. Meyers does it well, just not Christian Kirk sized salary well. The key to being a good negotiator is you have to be willing to walk away.

“#1 WR” is a nonsense fan driven concept that nobody can seem to define. The Pats offensive problems last season wouldn’t have been solved with Deandre Hopkins instead of Devante Parker… they would have looked just as inept.

 

[Real fan 02]

Ask the Buffalo Bills what QB purgatory is like.

After Jim Kelly it went Todd Collins - Flutie - Rob Johnson - Van Pelt - Drew. Then after Drew it went- JP Losman (1st round bust) - Trent Edwards - Fitz - EJ Manuel (1st round bust) - Thad Lewis - Kyle Orton - Tyrod Taylor (with their first playoff appearance since Flutie) and after that only then they found Josh Allen. Took only 20 years.

I don't want us to experience that. Let's hope Mac is legit.

Thank you for posting that information, the Mac haters will try to say all those QB's are still better...

 

[Wozzy]

Also, when Buffalo got knocked out, a lot of people on that board who apparently didn't like Allen the way people don't like Mac, immediately started jumped on Allen about his mechanics, decision-making, etc. and how "he's not the guy." It's just a strange dynamic and it's certainly not exclusive to here.

It’s an uncomfortable truth for people who believe in magical franchise caliber QB’s that make all things possible, for the first two years of his career fans and media called Josh Allen “a bust” while he was developing. They wanted to run him out of town on a rail.

Not all players arrive ready to compete at the highest level, very often they need time to develop.

Often the team these QB’s go to are unprepared for success even if the QB was competent enough as a rookie.

The problem with the Chargers from the moment Herbert arrived was a Charger’s problem, not a Herbert problem. This isn’t a one size fits all thing.

 

[crawhammer]

Have you followed the thread? The posters who constantly spout "corky" as an insult do NOT want Mac to succeed.

All the "homer" crowd has said is Mac was bad last year but with as poor as the coaching and offense was that we know now let's "see" what happens with O'Brien and if he can look like he did under McDaniels where he looked promising. Not sure how that's a homer take.

It's more nuanced than "Mac sucks he will never be good! He held Patricia back!" Which is spouted every day on this board by the other side. There isn't anyone here saying Mac was amazing and the next Brady.

The 2 camps are basically "he sucks trade him!" Or "let's see how he does with O'Brien"

My issue with Mac is he started playing poorly as early as week 13 of 2021 (with McDaniels). In Mac's last 20 starts he has 22 TDs and 18 INTs. He also averaged 209 Y/G which is 22nd in the league. The team is 8-12 in Mac's last 20 starts as well.

We all agree BB made a huge mistake with Patricia, who no doubt ******ed Mac's development, but Mac also has to take some accountability for his poor play (for an extended period now). His arm isn't great, his mechanics (mainly lower body) look off, he's not seeing the whole field well, and he's made some really poor decisions and throws.

Mac isn't hopeless, and I think O'Brien will provide a boost to the entire offensive operation, but I personally would prefer an open competition for the starting job in camp. Zappe played really well until the second half of the Chicago game which was a disaster for the entire team (the Bears went 0-10 after that game). The team is 2-0 with Zappe as the starter and he probably could have beaten Aaron Rodgers in relief if the coaching staff hadn't stifled the offense with conservative play-calling in OT.

I don't think they're trading Mac because whichever veteran quarterback they theoretically replace him with will be too expensive and throw off their cap totals. O'Brien was brought in to fix the offense with Mac presumably but again I won't mind Zappe getting a decent look in camp. Either way I want the team to be good. I can get my schadenfreude by watching the Jets.

 

[crawhammer]

I actually wonder with these people how they would react if they get their wish and Jones was traded away to Las Vegas and with McDaniels, Adams, Renfrow, and the rest Jones gets over 4,000 yards and 30 or more TDs. My guess they will kill Belichick. A lot of the most vocal Jones critics were also the most vocal anti-Belichick people right after Brady left for Tampa. It seems some of these people just like to complain.

We were right.

 

[crawhammer]

Hard for me to understand that we are supposed to be patriots fans on the forum.. however I continue to see negative post about Mac, I cannot stress enough how much we need Mac to excel this season and beyond.. the AFC is probably the most competitive as it's been in years!!

Bingo! This also is why I have concern with Mac. His ceiling is too low in my opinion and he won't be competitive with several other quarterbacks in the conference... Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Jackson, Watson, Lawrence... ultimately Mac will have to play better than probably at least two of these quarterbacks to get through the AFC playoffs. As of right now I don't see that happening.

 

[sb1]

Bingo! This also is why I have concern with Mac. His ceiling is too low in my opinion and he won't be competitive with several other quarterbacks in the conference... Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Jackson, Watson, Lawrence... ultimately Mac will have to play better than probably at least two of these quarterbacks to get through the AFC playoffs. As of right now I don't see that happening.

Mac likely won't ever be THE reason the team wins a championship but I think he can be *a* reason why. But it starts with playing better this year. There's no more excuses. I need to see improvement.

 

[crawhammer]

Brady and the offensive coaches made an already good offensive line better. Give us a break. Brady didn’t help them run block at all.

Is it really lost on you how a quarterback can make his o-line look better?

 

[Rob0729]

We were right.

In hindsight sorta. But Belichick moving on from a 42 year old QB was not a bad idea. The fact is Brady defied the odds and played at a high level far higher than anyone imagined, but no one could have really said with certainty that he would have played at this level.

And let's face it, if Brady stayed, he probably would have retired with one less Super Bowl win. I don't see the 2020-2022 Patriots winning a Super Bowl with or with out Brady. Yes, they would have made the playoffs, but I don't know if they would have been much more successful than the 2019 season.

But I don't want to turn this into a Brady debate again.

 

[Zuma]

Meyers is good and I don’t want to insult him because he has done everything the team has asked of him and been a good soldier.

That being said he has played in the slot and the offense has always been designed to own the middle of the field. We have a long history of slot receiver success, TE success and third down back success for a reason. The offense is geared towards feeding those guys.

Bourne or another WR could play exclusively in the slot and put up numbers. Meyers does it well, just not Christian Kirk sized salary well. The key to being a good negotiator is you have to be willing to walk away.

“#1 WR” is a nonsense fan driven concept that nobody can seem to define. The Pats offensive problems last season wouldn’t have been solved with Deandre Hopkins instead of Devante Parker… they would have looked just as inept.

I'm going to die on this hill...

- Bourne should play in the slot. He is the most dynamic / shifty player on the team. IMO he would have 1000 yards if he was there full time
- Meyers should be at WR2 and move the chains when other options aren't available
- Our best WR should be at WR1...whoever that would be

I hope Meyers accepts a team friendly deal around $13-14 per.

 

[crawhammer]

Mac likely won't ever be THE reason the team wins a championship but I think he can be *a* reason why. But it starts with playing better this year. There's no more excuses. I need to see improvement.

He'll have to be. A 2000 Ravens like team is NOT winning this conference any time soon.

 

[crawhammer]

Mac has shown his arm isn’t the problem… no more than Kirk Cousins arm is a problem.

People need to take a closer look at Kirk Cousins career numbers before they start comparing Mac to him. Apparently a lot of people will be really surprised at how good Cousins looks (on paper at least).

 

[Wozzy]

Is it really lost on you how a quarterback can make his o-line look better?

An offense can get the ball out faster and limit opponents ability to pressure them. They can use scheme like screens, draw plays and counter run plays to offset what an opponent is trying to accomplish with their pass rush.

What a QB can’t do is make bad offensive linemen (or other players) look good. For a large majority of his career Tom had good to great offensive lines in front of him and when he didn’t the team failed. We’re talking real life here, not some fanboys wet dream.

 

[Ian]

An offense can get the ball out faster and limit opponents ability to pressure them. They can use scheme like screens, draw plays and counter run plays to offset what an opponent is trying to accomplish. What a QB can’t do is make bad offensive linemen or other players look good. For a large majority of his career Tom had good to great offensive lines in front of him and when he didn’t the team failed.

They also had to adjust the offense and put him in a position where he could start getting the ball out quicker after the Giants and Ravens both showed how vulnerable he was to pressure up the middle. If you go back and watch last season, they did a great job of that with Mac, compared to this year where a lot of the plays took longer to develop and - as we found out later on film - also weren't drawn up too well.