Reports are the Pats may upgrade the WRs through trade (not necessarily Hopkins)

[Toofy]

That's why I mentioned the need for speed on offense.. just imagine if M. Jones, Thornton and another burner lined up.. Defenses would have to at least respect the speed we would have.. that gives everyone room to work..

We need big play ability and to score quickly..

I think more than speed we need skilled route running .

The big knock on Thornton has been his route running and pretty bad conversion rate . It's not like he has forged ahead of the cornerbacks. His speed tbh has not translated . He needs to have those jukes, twitches and then take off.

Marcus seems to have that twitches and speed . He is going to be as effective as deebo or Tyreek . We need to open the playbook for him on offense .

Meyers has phenomenal route running capabilities and contested catch abilities but sadly YAc is missing thereby not leading to many first down or second down conversions . Mostly a safety release on 3rs down . We honestly don't have a replacement for that if he leaves .

Unless Marcus fits into the slot and is able to run in open space we cannot bank on Thornton , Bourne and Parker to be safety valve.

I would prioritize route running , intelligence and 3 cone times for whomsoever we are replacing Meyers with . My binkie is Wilson from Stanford in 3rd round. It's a risky bet but hopeful he becomes davante Adams Jr .

 

[Real fan 02]

I think more than speed we need skilled route running .

The big knock on Thornton has been his route running and pretty bad conversion rate . It's not like he has forged ahead of the cornerbacks. His speed tbh has not translated . He needs to have those jukes, twitches and then take off.

Marcus seems to have that twitches and speed . He is going to be as effective as deebo or Tyreek . We need to open the playbook for him on offense .

Meyers has phenomenal route running capabilities and contested catch abilities but sadly YAc is missing thereby not leading to many first down or second down conversions . Mostly a safety release on 3rs down . We honestly don't have a replacement for that if he leaves .

Unless Marcus fits into the slot and is able to run in open space we cannot bank on Thornton , Bourne and Parker to be safety valve.

I would prioritize route running , intelligence and 3 cone times for whomsoever we are replacing Meyers with . My binkie is Wilson from Stanford in 3rd round. It's a risky bet but hopeful he becomes davante Adams Jr .

Yes of course route running is very vital, But the speed factor is what DCs will have to respect.. what hurt us more than anything past few season is not having players with elite speed to carry coverages so the middle of the field is open, and Mac can pick apart LBs sinking in coverage... this ultimately helps the O line and the running game.. we are on the same page, I'm with you! As for me I'd go with Speed, ability, route running and catch Radius.. Thornton had some flashes.. he was a rook, and he'll be much better player under BOB.. as your mentioned his route running abilities will have to be more crisps than last season..

In all fairness probably everyone on offense with be better under BOB

 

[BobDigital]

Frankly, if we don't get someone like Hopkins I REALLY don't care. We need an ace there. Not more Bs and Cs. That being said, this team is more than a WR away. So i'd rather not use any picks trading for a player that won't put us over the top. It is dump contracts, trade guys and tank time. And if BB is not on board with that, it is time to part ways with him.

 

[Real fan 02]

Frankly, if we don't get someone like Hopkins I REALLY don't care. We need an ace there. Not more Bs and Cs. That being said, this team is more than a WR away. So i'd rather not use any picks trading for a player that won't put us over the top. It is dump contracts, trade guys and tank time. And if BB is not on board with that, it is time to part ways with him.

I hear ya, As far as Hop he is a little der but still a #1.. the guy was playing phenomenal until he got hurt.. he's still got game breaking speed, still a masterful route runner.. but your right.. we need an ace, we are a few pieces away on offense and defense..

 

[Stu Pidassle]

Oh without a doubt!!! As far as elite WRs you'd probably need at least 2 of them in today's game if your going to have them..

What's forgotten about is during our dynasties for the most part we played offense just like KC won with.. no elite WRs.. as you mentioned KC has elite TE, but we did it that way for years.. with elite QB play and great execution from our offense.

Realistically the team needs to follow the model of the early dynasty where the key components were a dominant defense complimented by an offense that did not give the ball away with ST contributing here and there. The offense was driven by clutch QB and WR play augmenting a clock chewing running game led by Antoine Smith and then Cory Dillon. It may not be super exciting, the good news is that we have the ingredients if Mac can take the next step.

 

[Real fan 02]

Realistically the team needs to follow the model of the early dynasty where the key components were a dominant defense complimented by an offense that did not give the ball away with ST contributing here and there. The offense was driven by clutch QB and WR play augmenting a clock chewing running game led by Antoine Smith and then Cory Dillon. It may not be super exciting, the good news is that we have the ingredients if Mac can take the next step.

Yes that is absolutely correct!! When we had those teams.. it was early on in TBs rise and he showed the ability to be clutch right of the bat... some QBs you can see the greatness right away, some it takes a little bit of time... we have the defense.. I still am confused on to what 2022 even was for us as a team.. however in 2023 NFL it's probably a good bet to be balanced on offense/defense..

In order for us to complile wins during the regular season we'll need to score.. no matter how we score, but we'll need to score anf get back to be a good redzone team offensively.. the key is now that it's 17 games we need to be around 10,11 wins... so I totally agree with you about Mac. The kid has the fight, he has the leadership abilities that you want to see..

2023 has to be all about Mac and the team around him.

 

[p8ryts]

Realistically the team needs to follow the model of the early dynasty where the key components were a dominant defense complimented by an offense that did not give the ball away with ST contributing here and there. The offense was driven by clutch QB and WR play augmenting a clock chewing running game led by Antoine Smith and then Cory Dillon. It may not be super exciting, the good news is that we have the ingredients if Mac can take the next step.

Absolutely and if that had happened last year we would have been in the play offs and had a decent team. Get back to Patriots football!!!!

 

[lancerman]

Realistically the team needs to follow the model of the early dynasty where the key components were a dominant defense complimented by an offense that did not give the ball away with ST contributing here and there. The offense was driven by clutch QB and WR play augmenting a clock chewing running game led by Antoine Smith and then Cory Dillon. It may not be super exciting, the good news is that we have the ingredients if Mac can take the next step.

That was a different era. And lets be real, Deion Branch at the time was still outpacing what we have at WR now by a fair bit. Now you need a passing game because no matter how good your defense is, a team like the Chiefs or Bills have the talent to erase an entire good game in a couple of late drives. Hell even in 2018 we shut them out for a half and they still went off and we needed to win a shootout. At some point you need to be able to win a race to 30 and control the game offensively. Also the Patriots from 2019 to the present have had a good defense and solid run games. The problem is that the margin for error is smaller and the offense keeps letting them down.

You also need to use the pass game as almost an extension of the run game nowadays.

 

[Stu Pidassle]

That was a different era. And lets be real, Deion Branch at the time was still outpacing what we have at WR now by a fair bit. Now you need a passing game because no matter how good your defense is, a team like the Chiefs or Bills have the talent to erase an entire good game in a couple of late drives. Hell even in 2018 we shut them out for a half and they still went off and we needed to win a shootout. At some point you need to be able to win a race to 30 and control the game offensively. Also the Patriots from 2019 to the present have had a good defense and solid run games. The problem is that the margin for error is smaller and the offense keeps letting them down.

You also need to use the pass game as almost an extension of the run game nowadays

Clearly the ability to score at will is a great luxury and the formula that drove the last part of the dynasty. It is not the only way to win. With all due respect to Dion Branch, the reality is that he was not that much better than Myers. He wasn't even on the 2001 team and never had a 1,000 yard season. Substitute the Rams for the Chiefs and the statement about erasing a lead quickly was just as true back then. Those early Pats teams could win the super bowl now.

 

[Ross12]

It’d be interesting if BOB could unlock the potential of Henry and Jonnu in a 2TE offense like he did back in the day. Makes a premier WR less important… Maybe they can trade for Darren Waller too.

If they don’t want to utilize multiple TEs, Jonnu can be traded to save $4.4M on the cap, but guessing he stays. Hunter Henry could also optionally be cut or traded to save $10M on the cap, but I would probably keep him if I was going to keep one TE. Jonnu’s the better blocker though so if they just want one TE and would mainly use them as a blocker then maybe they’d cut Hunter and keep Jonnu.

 

[DaBruinz]

It’d be interesting if BOB could unlock the potential of Henry and Jonnu in a 2TE offense like he did back in the day. Makes a premier WR less important… Maybe they can trade for Darren Waller too.

If they don’t want to utilize multiple TEs, Jonnu can be traded to save $4.4M on the cap, but guessing he stays. Hunter Henry could also optionally be cut or traded to save $10M on the cap, but I would probably keep him if I was going to keep one TE. Jonnu’s the better blocker though so if they just want one TE and would mainly use them as a blocker then maybe they’d cut Hunter and keep Jonnu.

There are several talented TEs available in Free agency. Dalton Schultz and Mike Gesicki. You also have Auston Hooper, OJ Howard, Hayden Hurst, Josh Oliver, and Irv Smith.

 

[Ross12]

There are several talented TEs available in Free agency. Dalton Schultz and Mike Gesicki. You also have Auston Hooper, OJ Howard, Hayden Hurst, Josh Oliver, and Irv Smith.

I am curious about a couple of those guys, I wonder what the market will look like.

 

[p8ryts]

I am curious about a couple of those guys, I wonder what the market will look like.

Just equivalent to what we already have.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

It's obvious receivers matter.

They always have, historically.

90s Cowboys had Michael Irvin,
80s 49ers had Dwight Clark then Jerry rice
70s steelers had Lynn Swann, John Stallworth
70s Cowboys had Drew Pearson


And its obvious elite QBs matter
Staubach, Bradshaw, Montana, Elway, Favre, Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes, etc.

Only some teams have gotten by without them - and they usually had to be insane in other respects (crazy elite defense- 2000 ravens, 2015 broncos, etc. And teams like the 80s Giants and 2021 Rams had generational defensive players like LT and Aaron Donald)

Basically, in short, you need superstar players. You have to be great at one aspect of the game, otherwise it's increasingly hard to win.

The Pats don't have an elite QB. Mac can bounce back, but will he better than Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert?

Will bill o brien be good for Mac? That 2010-2011 Pats offense wasn't as easy as Brady and gronk and Welker made it look. They had to be on the same page and have great chemistry in reading the defense.

The Pats can't draft at receiver, and Bill doesn't like paying top dollar for the best player - he spent money on Agholor, Bourne, etc. Our receiving corps isn't bad, but it lacks a special player.

Our defense is good - but I can't call it great, because they haven't been able to really shut down a really good offense. It's been a while since we've done that.

our special teams is not good

that's the issue with the Pats. We are mid. And some of the areas we could improve on in the draft, I don't trust us to draft well there.

What do you guys think?

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Big help. Ii think we agree. I am questioning the idea that you have to have an elite #1 receiver in " today's NFL." Chiefs don't, unless you count kelce, which I grant is fair.

Yeah, the Chiefs are an exception almost like us - no elite #1 receiver, but a GOAT level QB/TE combo.

Eagles made the big game with an elite group. Last year the Rams Super Bowl MVP was literally a receiver... Tampa had a loaded receding corps, chiefs had tyreek and Kelce in 2020, etc. The Pats were the only team able to win inspite of it, and it required them having the GOAT QB and Belichick.

People who say receivers don't matter or elite QBs don't matter or superstars don't matter remind me of those who like to pretend that any mediocre team can win if they just have the right coaching. Which is silly, talent matters.

 

[StrawHatPatriot]

Realistically the team needs to follow the model of the early dynasty where the key components were a dominant defense complimented by an offense that did not give the ball away with ST contributing here and there. The offense was driven by clutch QB and WR play augmenting a clock chewing running game led by Antoine Smith and then Cory Dillon. It may not be super exciting, the good news is that we have the ingredients if Mac can take the next step.

But Mac isn't clutch.

Imploded against Baltimore and Buffalo (wk 18), wasn't clutch against Minnesota and Las Vegas, and didn't close out against NYJ and Pitt.

Kenny Pickett had more game winning drives in the last 3 weeks of the year than Mac Jones has had in his whole career.

And Mac probably isn't ever going to be as clinical as Brady was. That's tough bar to clear

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

It’d be interesting if BOB could unlock the potential of Henry and Jonnu in a 2TE offense like he did back in the day. Makes a premier WR less important… Maybe they can trade for Darren Waller too.

If they don’t want to utilize multiple TEs, Jonnu can be traded to save $4.4M on the cap, but guessing he stays. Hunter Henry could also optionally be cut or traded to save $10M on the cap, but I would probably keep him if I was going to keep one TE. Jonnu’s the better blocker though so if they just want one TE and would mainly use them as a blocker then maybe they’d cut Hunter and keep Jonnu.

I'm not sure what you do with either tbh. Neither can really block. Smith needs manipulated touches and Henry has been hit or miss here - some of the miss weren't his fault but it is what it is.

I'm curious how set he might be bc we definitely need some new personnel if we ant to run more 2TE.

 

[cmasspatsfan]

It's obvious receivers matter.

They always have, historically.

90s Cowboys had Michael Irvin,
80s 49ers had Dwight Clark then Jerry rice
70s steelers had Lynn Swann, John Stallworth
70s Cowboys had Drew Pearson


And its obvious elite QBs matter
Staubach, Bradshaw, Montana, Elway, Favre, Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers, Mahomes, etc.

Only some teams have gotten by without them - and they usually had to be insane in other respects (crazy elite defense- 2000 ravens, 2015 broncos, etc. And teams like the 80s Giants and 2021 Rams had generational defensive players like LT and Aaron Donald)

Basically, in short, you need superstar players. You have to be great at one aspect of the game, otherwise it's increasingly hard to win.

The Pats don't have an elite QB. Mac can bounce back, but will he better than Josh Allen, Joe Burrow, Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Justin Herbert?

Will bill o brien be good for Mac? That 2010-2011 Pats offense wasn't as easy as Brady and gronk and Welker made it look. They had to be on the same page and have great chemistry in reading the defense.

The Pats can't draft at receiver, and Bill doesn't like paying top dollar for the best player - he spent money on Agholor, Bourne, etc. Our receiving corps isn't bad, but it lacks a special player.

Our defense is good - but I can't call it great, because they haven't been able to really shut down a really good offense. It's been a while since we've done that.

our special teams is not good

that's the issue with the Pats. We are mid. And some of the areas we could improve on in the draft, I don't trust us to draft well there.

What do you guys think?

The last two drafts have been very good and we have a lot of picks this year. Lets see what the team looks like in August.

 

[Ross12]

I'm not sure what you do with either tbh. Neither can really block. Smith needs manipulated touches and Henry has been hit or miss here - some of the miss weren't his fault but it is what it is.

I'm curious how set he might be bc we definitely need some new personnel if we ant to run more 2TE.

Yup. If they want to they could trade Jonnu and cut or trade Henry for about a total of $17M in dead cap and $14M in cap space gained. Then they could sign new TEs with low first years if they want to try again.

 

[Steve102]

Yup. If they want to they could trade Jonnu and cut or trade Henry for about a total of $17M in dead cap and $14M in cap space gained. Then they could sign new TEs with low first years if they want to try again.

$3m net?