The optimistic case for Mac Jones

[Rob0729]

And posters were celebrating that this year - especially an ex mod.

That's just what he is. Pats have to build around his limitations and get players who can take shorter passes and make defenders miss.

Of course every team will have plays that can be had, but the OC might have been the worst we've seen in the NFL for a very...very long time. It's pretty rare to see plays designs so bad that players are running into each other and when players are open - they aren't because there's another receiver running in the area bringing a defender with them.

The defense was good until they played a competent offense. Since 2020, they have a 10-20 record against teams .500 and above and 4 straight years of a losing record in December.

He was no match for Rex Ryan.

He's got one now.

LOL! Yes, Mac Jones ceiling is Brian Hoyer when he started for the O’Brien Texans. You have no idea if Jones is mediocre. He was mediocre with one of the worst coached offenses in league history. Who know where he is with a real coaching staff.

And against the Jets, if Brady wasn‘t intercepted while the Pats were in field goal range on the first drive if that game, I think the game would have gone very differently.

 

[Rob0729]

Conflating check down with first read is....odd?

I am not conflating anything. I am stating Mac Haters make diametrically opposing arguments why they think he sucks. Some say if the first read isn’t there, he quickly checks down rather than letting the play develops. Others say he locks into his first read and doesn’t scan the field at his other reads.

 

[Tunescribe]

Yet again, I am mind-boggled at the claim Zappe has a “significantly” weaker arm than Mac.

Really?

Really. It's not a "claim," it is the way it is. If Bailey's labored throwing motion and Ian's breakdowns don't help un-boggle your mind, nothing else will.

 

[Zuma]

Really. It's not a "claim," it is the way it is. If Bailey's labored throwing motion and Ian's breakdowns don't help un-boggle your mind, nothing else will.

How would you feel if Zappe was clearly the better QB in camp and pre-season in 2023. That is question one. Question 2 is how would you feel if BB started Zappe week one and the Patriots win 11 games including one playoff game.

Edit: ask me the same about Mac. @Tunescribe

 

[Tunescribe]

How would you feel if Zappe was clearly the better QB in camp and pre-season in 2023. That is question one. Question 2 is how would you feel if BB started Zappe week one and the Patriots win 11 games including one playoff game.

Answers:

No. 1: I would be surprised.
No. 2: I would be thrilled.

I am not "anti-Zappe" by any stretch, I want him to do well just like I want Mac to do well. If he beat out Mac he would have my support.

 

[Triumph]

You Mac Haters need to get your story straight You say he is a check down QB Another Mac Hater will say if Mac’s first read isn’t open he doesn‘t go through his progressions and just forces the pass or takes the sack. So Mac is so bad that he is a check down QB who cannot check down and never does.

You fans of Mac are delusional.

Corky was the 8th leading check down QB in 2021 and you all crowned him THE GUY. Captain Checkdown: The quarterbacks who most and least rely on checkdown passes | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

He most definitely still checks down because he has no deep ball. When your boy throws long the INTs come in droves. Thats why the Pats would not let him throw deep after Corky came back from his near fatal ankle sprain. THE GUY - your boy Corky Mac - led the 2022 NFL season in screen passes with 65.

Look at the Bengals game. 50% of your star QBs completions were CHECK DOWNS. Cincinnati Bengals at New England Patriots - December 24th, 2022 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

3rd drive
Strong 5 yard pass
Meyer 4 yard pass
4th drive
Strong 5 yard pass
5th drive
Stevenson 4 yard pass
3 incomplete deep passes
6th drive
Meyers 6 yard pass
7th drive
Meyers 3 yard pass
Jonnu 4 yard pass
8th drive
Bourne 1 yard pass
Stevenson - 1 yard pass

This is the reason why its so laughable and why anyone who isn't blind cant take you Fans of Mac serious.

 

[Triumph]

I am not conflating anything. I am stating Mac Haters make diametrically opposing arguments why they think he sucks.

He does suck.

Some say if the first read isn’t there, he quickly checks down rather than letting the play develops.

Yup he does.

He gets rattled very easy. Sees ghosts.

Others say he locks into his first read and doesn’t scan the field at his other reads.

Yup he does. Double coverage dont matter.

Somehow Corky believes that he is John Elway.

 

[Tunescribe]

You fans of Mac are delusional.

Corky was the 8th leading check down QB in 2021 and you all crowned him THE GUY. Captain Checkdown: The quarterbacks who most and least rely on checkdown passes | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

He most definitely still checks down because he has no deep ball. When your boy throws long the INTs come in droves. Thats why the Pats would not let him throw deep after Corky came back from his near fatal ankle sprain. THE GUY - your boy Corky Mac - led the 2022 NFL season in screen passes with 65.

Look at the Bengals game. 50% of your star QBs completions were CHECK DOWNS. Cincinnati Bengals at New England Patriots - December 24th, 2022 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

3rd drive
Strong 5 yard pass
Meyer 4 yard pass
4th drive
Strong 5 yard pass
5th drive
Stevenson 4 yard pass
3 incomplete deep passes
6th drive
Meyers 6 yard pass
7th drive
Meyers 3 yard pass
Jonnu 4 yard pass
8th drive
Bourne 1 yard pass
Stevenson - 1 yard pass

This is the reason why its so laughable and why anyone who isn't blind cant take you Fans of Mac serious.

 

[Zuma]

Your answers:

No. 1: I would be surprised.
No. 2: I would be thrilled.

I am not "anti-Zappe" by any stretch, I want him to do well just like I want Mac to do well. If he beat out Mac he would have my support.

Right answers and I agree with all of them. And that is the difference with some here. Some will die on that Zappe or Mac hill no matter what. The GOAT isn’t walking through that door. We work with what we have. Taking bazaar sides to validate an argument . People are too set in their ways with which player they want to succeed just so they don’t lose an argument. The is Patsfans.com … not Zappe.com. I just want to win and I know their are a lot here that feel the same.

At the end of the day we are all just sitting at a bar talking about our team…having a few beers….virtually.

 

[stinkypete]

Bill O'Brien had mediocre offenses in Houston and never averaged more than 25 points per game during his stint. He had Watson from 2017 through 4 games in 2020 before getting fired.

Alabama fans were glad he left.

Mac doesn't have anywhere near the talent Watson had and the current skill position players in NE isn't good. Some of you guys are in real denial of expectations for this team going forward.

I'm not sure that's the case. I haven't talked to anyone who sees a ceiling of being a 10 - 11 win team and a fringe playoff entry in 2023. That expectation is realistic - don't crap your pants against the Bears or Raiders and the 2022 team is already there.

I expect the O'Brien offense to be middling to competent. That alone is a major step up from 2022.

 

[Rob0729]

You fans of Mac are delusional.

Corky was the 8th leading check down QB in 2021 and you all crowned him THE GUY. Captain Checkdown: The quarterbacks who most and least rely on checkdown passes | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

He most definitely still checks down because he has no deep ball. When your boy throws long the INTs come in droves. Thats why the Pats would not let him throw deep after Corky came back from his near fatal ankle sprain. THE GUY - your boy Corky Mac - led the 2022 NFL season in screen passes with 65.

Look at the Bengals game. 50% of your star QBs completions were CHECK DOWNS. Cincinnati Bengals at New England Patriots - December 24th, 2022 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

3rd drive
Strong 5 yard pass
Meyer 4 yard pass
4th drive
Strong 5 yard pass
5th drive
Stevenson 4 yard pass
3 incomplete deep passes
6th drive
Meyers 6 yard pass
7th drive
Meyers 3 yard pass
Jonnu 4 yard pass
8th drive
Bourne 1 yard pass
Stevenson - 1 yard pass

This is the reason why its so laughable and why anyone who isn't blind cant take you Fans of Mac serious.

First of all, checking down is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, here is the second sentence of the article YOU POSTED:

There’s nothing inherently wrong with checkdown passes — the best quarterbacks in the league employ them regularly, and they can be vital to an offense's success and efficiency — but quarterbacks shouldn’t be too keen on them.

Second of all, I never said that Jones didn't check down. I am just pointing out you Mac Haters can't get your story straight.

Third, I don't think anyone on this board takes you seriously. Your irrational over the top hate of Mac Jones has even the people who thinks Mac Jones sucks say to themselves that you are cray-cray. So don't talk to me about how people can take me seriously.

 

[Zuma]

First of all, checking down is not necessarily a bad thing. In fact, here is the second sentence of the article YOU POSTED:

There’s nothing inherently wrong with checkdown passes — the best quarterbacks in the league employ them regularly, and they can be vital to an offense's success and efficiency — but quarterbacks shouldn’t be too keen on them.

Second of all, I never said that Jones didn't check down. I am just pointing out you Mac Haters can't get your story straight.

Third, I don't think anyone on this board takes you seriously. Your irrational over the top hate of Mac Jones has even the people who thinks Mac Jones sucks say to themselves that you are cray-cray. So don't talk to me about how people can take me seriously.

Championships have been won by checking down for ****ssake.

 

[Rob0729]

He does suck.

Yup he does.

He gets rattled very easy. Sees ghosts.

Yup he does. Double coverage dont matter.

Somehow Corky believes that he is John Elway.

We don't know if Jones sucks. A lot of people who know far more about football than anyone on this board disagrees with you that Jones sucks. You see former QBs like Kurt Warner and Dan Orlovsky who are fans of Jones. Evan Lazar, who was initially not a fan of Jones, thinks he has the potential of being a good QB based in what he saw down the stretch last year.

Who knows what Jones is? We cannot judge him from last year because the offense was a disaster. Most of the biggest reasons were not because of anything Jones did.

 

[Rob0729]

Championships have been won by checking down for ****ssake.

Brady was considered a Captain Checkdown throughout his career. Some early in his career used it argue he was a game manager. Later in his career, it was used as a strength of how he could quickly go through his progressions to find the open man.

 

[sb1]

Zappe's 4 games

vs GB: completed 10 passes for less than 100 yards, was given first and 10 at midfield in OT and went 3 and out. I don't think he threw even half of his 15 attempts past the line of scrimmage.
vs Detroit: only 188 yards passing against an awful defense, was handed SIX 4th down stops by the defense and managed only 1 TD out of that. Leaned on his running game and defense to beat the powerhouse Lions.
vs Cleveland: good game even if he benefited from almost 7 yards after catch per completion. 7 YAC per completion is a big number.
vs Bears: he was horrible. Nuff said.

That goes with the preseason last summer where he was nothing special.

Not seeing anything here in this stretch that most other competent NFL backup QBs couldn't have done. I don't see a case here that Zappe is the guy. At all.

 

[Zuma]

Not seeing anything here in this stretch that most other competent NFL backup QBs couldn't have done. I don't see a case here that Zappe is the guy. At all.

Purdy is a competent backup as well.

 

[Rob0729]

You fans of Mac are delusional.

Corky was the 8th leading check down QB in 2021 and you all crowned him THE GUY. Captain Checkdown: The quarterbacks who most and least rely on checkdown passes | NFL News, Rankings and Statistics | PFF

He most definitely still checks down because he has no deep ball. When your boy throws long the INTs come in droves. Thats why the Pats would not let him throw deep after Corky came back from his near fatal ankle sprain. THE GUY - your boy Corky Mac - led the 2022 NFL season in screen passes with 65.

Look at the Bengals game. 50% of your star QBs completions were CHECK DOWNS. Cincinnati Bengals at New England Patriots - December 24th, 2022 | Pro-Football-Reference.com

3rd drive
Strong 5 yard pass
Meyer 4 yard pass
4th drive
Strong 5 yard pass
5th drive
Stevenson 4 yard pass
3 incomplete deep passes
6th drive
Meyers 6 yard pass
7th drive
Meyers 3 yard pass
Jonnu 4 yard pass
8th drive
Bourne 1 yard pass
Stevenson - 1 yard pass

This is the reason why its so laughable and why anyone who isn't blind cant take you Fans of Mac serious.

BTW, in 2018, Andrew Luck had basically the same percentage of check downs (8.2%) as Jones had in 2021 (8.3%). That year, Luck threw for 4,593 yards, 39 TDs, and had the second highest completion percentage of his career. And he was voted the Comeback Player of the Year that year.

Captain Checkdown: The quarterbacks who most and least rely on checkdown passes

While Blake Bortles has utilized the checkdown pass at a high rate, Buffalo Bills quarterback Josh Allen has avoided such plays.

www.pff.com

 

[sb1]

We don't know if Jones sucks. A lot of people who know far more about football than anyone on this board disagrees with you that Jones sucks. You see former QBs like Kurt Warner and Dan Orlovsky who are fans of Jones. Evan Lazar, who was initially not a fan of Jones, thinks he has the potential of being a good QB based in what he saw down the stretch last year.

Who knows what Jones is? We cannot judge him from last year because the offense was a disaster. Most of the biggest reasons were not because of anything Jones did.

Mac sucks compared to Tom Brady. So would just about anyone else that gets put in the position. It's unfair to expect that.

 

[Tunescribe]

Zappe's 4 games

vs GB: completed 10 passes for less than 100 yards, was given first and 10 at midfield in OT and went 3 and out. I don't think he threw even half of his 15 attempts past the line of scrimmage.
vs Detroit: only 188 yards passing against an awful defense, was handed SIX 4th down stops by the defense and managed only 1 TD out of that. Leaned on his running game and defense to beat the powerhouse Lions.
vs Cleveland: good game even if he benefited from almost 7 yards after catch per completion. 7 YAC per completion is a big number.
vs Bears: he was horrible. Nuff said.

That goes with the preseason last summer where he was nothing special.

Not seeing anything here in this stretch that most other competent NFL backup QBs couldn't have done. I don't see a case here that Zappe is the guy. At all.

I felt Zappe acquitted himself well for a rookie backup, getting the job done in Hoyer's absence. Of course, in the games he started he was tightly scripted throwing mostly to open first reads vs. porous defenses. The kid is very limited physically and has a lot to overcome in that department. A close look at his throwing motion, for example, shows he has to work up momentum and really heave the ball with all his might to get it places. His accuracy seems good, though. It will be interesting to see come training camp how both he and Mac developed during the offseason.

 

[Ian]

To clarify why I disagree with this.

I disagree that Zappe has a significantly worse arm than Mac.

I also disagree that Zappe is anywhere near Stidham. Zappe actually played in and started meaningful games, and produced statistically (and to the eye) at a much higher level than Stidham ever did, with a relatively larger (albeit still small overall) sample size.

I'd say noticeably is probably a better term. Mac figured out how to throw with some velocity without having to step (which having seen it, it meant more when Greg Cosell brought it up recently with Tom Curran), whereas Zappe still doesn't throw as hard as Mac even when he crow-hopped (I posted a couple of gifs in the media gallery that showed the two) on a similar distance throw.

https://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/media/bailey-zappe-21-yard-air-yards-throw-vs-lions-2022.42/

https://www.patsfans.com/new-england-patriots/messageboard/media/mac-jones-20yd-throw-air-yards-at-cardinals-2022.43/

Granted, it was a fraction of a second slower, so not a major difference. They're otherwise pretty close arm-wise.

Still, Mac had a full offseason, while Zappe was just a rookie. Brady looked like a different person in camp in 2001 compared to even the end of the 2000 season, so I'm sure Zappe will have spent his offseason getting better also.

I will say Zappe's arm angle already looked a little better in the video he posted throwing to Thornton, and it should be interesting to see where he's at by the time minicamp gets here. I'm sure Mac will get the benefit of the doubt, provided he performs well in training camp and preseason, but what happens from there is obviously going to decide everything, and I'm sure Zappe will make sure he's ready. That's all you can ask for.

But rooting for Mac to succeed this year is what we should all be hoping for. If Mac doesn't get back to building off his rookie performance, we all lose, especially if Zappe doesn't turn out to be the answer, either. Not having a viable QB puts us back to square one, and it'll be another frustrating year hoping to find any type of long-term answer and we've seen enough within the Division and around the league to know you can lose decades being a .500 team (or worse) before lightning strikes again.

So I'd say hoping for the best with Mac is where I fall right now because the alternative could be tough. But I'm at least glad they have Zappe because he's a member of this team and showed he can step in if need be and I already feel a heck of a lot confident with him than with Hoyer. If he turns out to be more, I'm sure we'll find out. But one player at a time at this point, especially when this year will decide Mac's future with the team as it is since they'll have to make a decision about his fifth-year option after this season.

They'll at least have Zappe for a couple of additional seasons after this one to figure things out if they ultimately close the book on Mac. Hopefully, that's not how things will play out but if it does, we're at least lucky in that regard.