NFL GAME DAY DISCUSSION 2022 NFL Playoff Monday - Wild Card Round - Cow Patties vs the Avocados

[SHOWTIME15]

So let me get this straight. Brady is the only QB that needs weapons to excel in the NFL? Lol

Mahomes: Kelce-Hill-Watkins-Williams ('19 SB)

Stafford: Kupp-OBJ-Jefferson-Henderson ('21 SB)

Burrow: Chase-Higgins-Boyd-Mixon

Allen: Diggs-Davis-Knox-Singletary

Hurst: Brown-Smith-Goedert-Sanders

Cousins: Jefferson-Thielen-Hockenson-Cook

Herbert: Allen-Williams-Everett-Ekler

Confirmed, only Tom Brady needs weapons to win games.

What a moronic lazy AF take.

Look at the "weapons" Montana had in 1981 and 1984. Likewise, look at the "weapons" Brady had from 2001 to 2004. Brady is no longer able to carry scrubs to the super bowl.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Aikman? He's #2 on your all-time list? Is that where you're going with this?

No, he's not on my top 5 list, but his super bowl performances were amazing,

Jordan is obviously the NBA GOAT. And yes, everyone thinks Brady is the GOAT QB. And most, I didn't say everyone, think Brady is the NFL GOAT.

I think Jordan is the NBA GOAT, but some people think Lebron is. And please show me a poll of every person in America and if they think Brady is the GOAT. I guarantee you there are many who are going to bring up spygate and deflategate and argue against Brady. Who knows what information Bill got from spying on his teams from 2000 to 2007 and how much that helped the Pats.

If you're strictly debating Super Bowl performances then at least you can engage in an argument there. They're no debating who's the GOAT QB of the NFL.

Seems to me the GOAT QB would have thrown more than 1 TD pass in SB 42 with an undefeated season on the line. That's just me though.

 

[crawhammer]

Look at the "weapons" Montana had in 1981 and 1984. Likewise, look at the "weapons" Brady had from 2001 to 2004. Brady is no longer able to carry scrubs to the super bowl.

Are you calling the 2004 Patriots scrubs?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Are you calling the 2004 Patriots scrubs?

His WRs and TEs, yes.

 

[crawhammer]

No, he's not on my top 5 list, but his super bowl performances were amazing,

SB 28? 0 TD, 1 INT, 77.2 passer rating. Not amazing.
SB 30 was more about the Dallas defense and Neil O'Donnell sucking.
SB 27 Buffalo had 9 turnovers. 9!!

I think so, but some people think Lebron is. And please show me a poll of every person in America and if they think Brady is the GOAT. I guarantee you there are many who are going to bring up spygate and deflategate and argue against Brady. Who knows what information Bill got from spying on his teams from 2000 to 2007 and how much that helped the Pats.

LOL! You're serious? The poll won't count unless it's literally "every person in America"?

Deflategate was a complete joke. If it was even happening, it didn't help Brady one bit. Just look at his accomplishments after the bogus controversy.

Spygate is 100% on Bill. Impossible to know for sure since the league destroyed all of the tapes that Bill was hoarding but I suspect Brady got little from it. And whatever benefit there may have been, there wasn't a direct line to Brady (like he wasn't personally studying the tapes).

 

[crawhammer]

His WRs and TEs, yes.

Well then, you can put that one in the Brady's amazing column.

 

[venecol]

Look at the "weapons" Montana had in 1981 and 1984. Likewise, look at the "weapons" Brady had from 2001 to 2004. Brady is no longer able to carry scrubs to the super bowl.

Are Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Hurst, Cousins, Stafford able to carry scrubs to the SB?

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Are Mahomes, Allen, Burrow, Herbert, Hurst, Cousins, Stafford able to carry scrubs to the SB?

None of them have proven they can carry scrubs to the SB.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Spygate is 100% on Bill. Impossible to know for sure since the league destroyed all of the tapes that Bill was hoarding but I suspect Brady got little from it. And whatever benefit there may have been, there wasn't a direct line to Brady (like he wasn't personally studying the tapes).

Yes, but Brady and the players all benefitted. The guy studying the tapes was Ernie Adams and as we all know he talks with Bill and the coaching staff a lot. Why spend nearly 7 years on something if it didn't help? Doesn't make any sense.

 

[crawhammer]

Yes, but Brady and the players all benefitted. The guy studying the tapes was Ernie Adams and as we all know he talks with Bill and the coaching staff a lot. Why spend nearly 7 years on something if it didn't help? Doesn't make any sense.

They're obsessive compulsive. Ernie thinks he's the wizard behind the curtain and Bill's always scrounging around for the slightest advantage.

I don't know, the tapes are long gone, but the team firebombed the league during the 2007 season after the cat was out of the bag. As for Brady, overall, he's been a better quarterback post-Spygate.

 

[Wozzy]

Tampa Bay's running game was historically bad this season. By totals or by averages, on 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th down, in the first and second halves, before and after contact, red zone, low red zone, etc. Just REALLY bad.

You think things fell apart drastically (8 wins) on basically the same exact team as last year… but the head coach getting fired had nothing to do with it. Solid take.

I've never said coaching is irrelevant. Just the players are more important. Especially the quarterback.

You say it all the time. Brady made BB is what you say regularly. It’s complete nonsense, but you clearly think it. It’s even more obvious now that the Bucs fell apart but you think it’s coincidence and the Patriots offense was abominable and you don’t see the correlation. Great coaches find and nurture great players, they put them in an optimal environment to succeed. Bad coaches do the opposite.

Arians may have been a bit of a character but he also created offense wherever he coached… and their offense mysteriously collapsed when he left… despite having the greatest QB of all time playing for them.

Why didn’t Tom make Byron Leftwich… the guy just got canned?

 

[Wozzy]

That's worked out really well for the GOAT HC.

They failed this year because of coaching, so did the Bucs. Why didn’t Tom make the Bucs coaching look better so Leftwich didn’t get fired?

Logic isn’t your strongest…

That's not a fact at all until you show me the video to confirm it.

Sure…

But you're comparing HCs: BA to Bowles, Urban to Pederson, Judge to Daboll. Why pivot to Patricia? Bill was the HC in '21 and '22. Is Bill declining?

Assistant coaches can be good or bad, do I need to explain that any further?

 

[Efstratios]

Oh I see, let's ignore anyone who compromises your anti-Brady narrative.

Aikman? He's #2 on your all-time list? Is that where you're going with this?


Jordan is obviously the NBA GOAT. And yes, everyone thinks Brady is the GOAT QB. And most, I didn't say everyone, think Brady is the NFL GOAT.


If you're strictly debating Super Bowl performances then at least you can engage in an argument there. They're no debating who's the GOAT QB of the NFL.

Not to contest anything you said here related to TB12 (IMO I think the GOAT debate should have ended after SB 49 but I think there's a consensus it ended after 51), but discussions on the GOAT vis a vis the NBA are a bit dicier. I'd personally pick Jordan as the GOAT like you, but as Clayton Crowley (among others) pointed out, there are strong cases you could make for about 7-8 other players (ex: LeBron and Kareem for longevity, Wilt just as a pure athletic specimen, Bill due to his leadership, Magic for his versatility, Bird due to his absurd peak, Duncan for his consistency and so on).

 

[crawhammer]

You think things fell apart drastically (8 wins) on basically the same exact team as last year… but the head coach getting fired had nothing to do with it. Solid take.

Arians wasn't fired. Also the Brady narrative of moving BA out as the head coach hasn't held up. Seems now that it was more about BA's health.

The teams weren't exactly the same either. They had 4 rookies in prominent roles on offense. Injuries were a major problem. And there were diminishing returns from some key contributors (Fournette and Evans most specifically).

You say it all the time. Brady made BB is what you say regularly. It’s complete nonsense, but you clearly think it. It’s even more obvious now that the Bucs fell apart but you think it’s coincidence and the Patriots offense was abominable and you don’t see the correlation. Great coaches find and nurture great players, they put them in an optimal environment to succeed. Bad coaches do the opposite.

Arians may have been a bit of a character but he also created offense wherever he coached… and their offense mysteriously collapsed when he left… despite having the greatest QB of all time playing for them.

Why didn’t Tom make Byron Leftwich… the guy just got canned?

It's true, I think Brady made Belichick the GOAT HC, I won't repeat my reasoning but I don't deny Belichick's place in history either. I listed my top 4 head coaches of all-time and ranked Belichick #1. WTF more do you want?

It's still a fact that Belichick has never won anything as a head coach without Brady whereas Brady won a Super Bowl without Belichick. Don't get mad at me for merely stating fact.

Leftwich didn't get canned because Brady led game-winning drives in 5 of their 8 wins. He got canned because he called the same running play for 2 yards or less on nearly every single first down.

 

[TommyD4207]

Arians wasn't fired.

 

[Efstratios]

I saw Spygate brought up here and to what extent it afforded New England a competitive advantage. Between what Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher said about "stealing signals" being a widespread practice, the fact that other SB winning teams arguably did way worse when it came to gaining competitive advantages, the fact that it wasn't formally prohibited until the 2006 memo, and the fact that the technical nitty gritty of the issue was more about from where the camera was placed all sort of lend support to what Bill told Kraft about it granting a really insignificant competitive advantage (and that, as Kraft said, he was stupid for thumbing his nose at a commissioner desperate to assert authority). I'm sure a poster better versed in Pats History than I am could say more (during that 10 year SB drought, I remember multiple visiting fans from other teams who tried to bring it up being schooled by long time posters here), but I really do think the only cheating scandal more overblown than Spygate was Deflategate and has only been kept alive due to the whinging of bitter former players with axes to grind like Marshall Faulk.

 

[crawhammer]

I saw Spygate brought up here and to what extent it afforded New England a competitive advantage. Between what Jimmy Johnson and Bill Cowher said about "stealing signals" being a widespread practice, the fact that other SB winning teams arguably did way worse when it came to gaining competitive advantages, and the fact that the technical nitty gritty of the issue was more about from where the camera was placed all sort of lend support to what Bill told Kraft about it granting a really insignificant competitive advantage (and that, as Kraft said, he was stupid for thumbing his nose at a commissioner desperate to assert authority). I'm sure a poster better versed in Pats History than I am could say more (during that 10 year SB drought, I remember multiple visiting fans from other teams who tried to bring it up being schooled by long time posters here), but I really do think the only cheating scandal more overblown than Spygate was Deflategate.

Mostly agree. Ultimately Bill's arrogance got them in trouble with Spygate. I do think the reported library of tapes, and the complete destruction of them by the league, is a bit suspicious. But really I think it's unlikely the team gained much advantage from their filming practices. Deflategate is a nothing burger, embarrassing scope and persistence on the league's part.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

Not to contest anything you said here related to TB12 (IMO I think the GOAT debate should have ended after SB 49 but I think there's a consensus it ended after 51),

There is no consensus...other than maybe in NE.

 

[SHOWTIME15]

but the team firebombed the league during the 2007 season after the cat was out of the bag.

This speaks nothing to how it may or may not have helped NE win SBs 36, 38 and 39.

 

[Efstratios]

Mostly agree. Ultimately Bill's arrogance got them in trouble with Spygate. I do think the reported library of tapes, and the complete destruction of them by the league, is a bit suspicious. But really I think it's unlikely the team gained much advantage from their filming practices. Deflategate is a nothing burger, embarrassing scope and persistence on the league's part.

I get you there, but Jay Glazer (who saw the 2007 iirc) did come forward claiming that most of the footage was just of cheerleaders T&A. Obviously Goodell and co made everything look worse by destroying the tapes and by dolling out an absurd penalty that the infraction seem like a historically big deal.

Ultimately both Spygate and Deflategate really were perfect storms involving a league desperate to assert authority (the first time because Goodell was an incoming commissioner, the second because of a string of horribly managed scandals and snafus like the lockout of 2010-11, the replacement refs debacle of 2012, the CET controversy of 2013, the Ray Rice ****show of 2014), Goodell wanting to uphold his authority to dish out whatever penalties he chooses (IIRC, the district court ruling revolved around entirely around whether or not he did) and a ton of owners incensed by the fact that the Brady/BB regime continued to contend perennially for SBs.