College VIDEO on Mac - the potential is clearly there - it’s frustrating

[crawhammer]

Mac's WRs were DeVonte Smith, Jaylen Waddle and John Metchie. So he had that major advantage in college.

 

[Kdo5]

Your last paragraph is the biggest issue I have. I think the coaching on offense is particularly bad and is kneecapping everyone so I can't make a great evaluation on Mac. Last year he had a leash, this year he has an albatross. He might never be that guy, but these two years make that assessment hard and there is now the possibility that we have to make a decision without actually knowing what we have and he could go to a team like the Jets or Raiders and all of a sudden be serviceable and then we have the double hit of having to see him help another team and knowing we are stuck with the coaches that blew it.

The offensive coaches must go, whether we continue with Mac or not. It’s not a situation of choosing one or the other.

 

[Ian]

Mac's WRs were DeVonte Smith, Jaylen Waddle and John Metchie. So he had that major advantage in college.

True. But Josh Allen has Stefon Diggs, Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie. Tua has Tyreek Hill, Jalen Waddle, and Cedrick Wilson. We don't have Brady anymore, we're going to need to add that type of talent at some point, regardless of who is at QB.

 

[Rob0729]

There was at least one example in the OSU Champ game when the line broke down a little, and the panicked Mac that we've been used to this year appeared (when imho he didn't need to). That being said, Mac continued to do well even when Heisman DSmith had to leave with an injury before the end of the half, and the Mac train kept rolling during that game, even with the hobbled Waddle. There were points early last season when Mac was close to the only positive part of this team. OL got cleaned up, and they went on that run. Everyone got ****y (and hurt) post bye, and the team self destructed. He can certainly be really good.

Zappe's being as good as he is, imho, has been a negative for Mac. Instead of lighting a fire, he's playing super conservative. He hasn't had an INT that was his "fault" (hit while throwing) since the Bears game (the did it hit the wire throw) over 2 months ago. Also the look back left throw in that OSU game was over 3.5 seconds. The great thing about Zappe is that there are already examples this year of his scanning the whole field under 2 secs post snap.

Is the conservativeness on Jones or Patricia? He wasn't conservative in the second half on Sunday. In fact, he threw some nice balls into tight windows (the Bourne catch on the sidelines being the most notable).



Even the alleyoops play to the practice squad TE was a nice pass in tight coverage (I think Henry would have caught it without having to deflecting it to Meyers).



Neither of those plays are conservative. There were other less notable plays where he was less than conservative.

And Jones wasn't conservative against the Vikes.

And as Kurt Warner said about Jones last year, that Jones' superpower was to scan the field quickly. In fact, he said there were times Jones was too quick.

I still think they gave Zappe a lot more help with a lot play action under center and being a run first team. Both of those things are things they got away from with Jones.

 

[Ian]

I still think they gave Zappe a lot more help with a lot play action under center and being a run first team. Both of those things are things they got away from with Jones.

Zappe had an extra tight end to block, which helps protection-wise but takes away a weapon. They did that a lot last year for Mac, but obviously the plan must have been to try and free those guys up more this year. Although, I still don't understand the Brown and Wynn switch. I've watched a lot of games from last year trying to make some sense of this and still don't recall seeing a play where either was any worse than they were this year. In fact, in most cases, they were better. Now one is injured, and both are bitter, with each guy underperforming.

 

[crawhammer]

True. But Josh Allen has Stefon Diggs, Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie. Tua has Tyreek Hill, Jalen Waddle, and Cedrick Wilson. We don't have Brady anymore, we're going to need to add that type of talent at some point, regardless of who is at QB.

Agreed. But, although I do agree Mac needs a legit WR1, I kind of like their current WRs. Bourne has been completely undervalued by the coaching staff. I would have Parker, Meyers and Bourne at the top of the depth chart. Agholor shouldn't be useless. He made a brilliant catch against the Steelers and overall he should be serviceable. Henry is a decent TE that probably hasn't been deployed properly by the OC. Stevenson looks like an excellent receiving back. So Mac's weapons aren't bad.

 

[Ian]

Agreed. But, although I do agree Mac needs a legit WR1, I kind of like their current WRs. Bourne has been completely undervalued by the coaching staff. I would have Parker, Meyers and Bourne at the top of the depth chart. Agholor shouldn't be useless. He made a brilliant catch against the Steelers and overall he should be serviceable. Henry is a decent TE that probably hasn't been deployed properly by the OC. Stevenson looks like an excellent receiving back. So Mac's weapons aren't bad.

They need a real WR1, with Bourne, Meyers and Thornton. I would say Bourne is the only guy I'm not willing to give up on.

Agholor and Parker can both go because neither is or has been consistent and Agholor is ridiculously overpriced for a guy with his production. That and I'm still a little bitter about how bad Parker was on those early-season turnovers where he was the target on 4 of those 5 picks for Jones to start the season.

For WR depth, I don't hate Wilkerson. He was on the rise before he got hurt and he showed some promise. Both him and Tre Nixon. Although, obviously I'm not married to either.

 

[Jim Beankie]

And we see plays like this all the time around the league, and Mac has the arm for it:

But we don't have a WR who can win a one-on-one off the line like this. And Mac isn't Russell Wilson, but he's got enough of an arm and enough touch to get it downfield if he has time and the guy can get behind a cornerback.

Pats do have a guy who can win off the line (well for the next 2 games anyway). He just has bad top end speed. See 23:04 against an All Pro CB with a similar play:

 

[crawhammer]

They need a real WR1, with Bourne, Meyers and Thornton. I would say Bourne is the only guy I'm not willing to give up on.

Agholor and Parker can both go because neither is or has been consistent and Agholor is ridiculously overpriced for a guy with his production. That and I'm still a little bitter about how bad Parker was on those early-season turnovers where he was the target on 4 of those 5 picks for Jones to start the season.

For WR depth, I don't hate Wilkerson. He was on the rise before he got hurt and he showed some promise. Both him and Tre Nixon. Although, obviously I'm not married to either.

Have you seen the list of potential FA WRs? It's not pretty.

He's not a #1 but Greg Dortch looks like he has a lot of potential.
Allen Lazard has good size and could be ready to take off somewhere other than Green Bay.

There's not much to pick from.

 

[Steve102]

True. But Josh Allen has Stefon Diggs, Gabe Davis and Isaiah McKenzie. Tua has Tyreek Hill, Jalen Waddle, and Cedrick Wilson. We don't have Brady anymore, we're going to need to add that type of talent at some point, regardless of who is at QB.

... and Bill has shown his disdain for those guys... high level talent at WR that eat up cap space instead opting for mid-pack guys. I am of the belief that his middle of the road WRs on the roster with better than average to elite slots is fine when he had top talent at QB to elevate them, but when you have a middle of the pack or below QB, you'd better have top flight wideouts.

short version: Bill's team building method doesn't work when the QB is subpar and the OC is uber conservative.

 

[Ian]

Pats do have a guy who can win off the line (well for the next 2 games anyway). He just has bad top end speed. See 23:04 against an All Pro CB with a similar play:

LOL, I'm a Meyers guy, so I don't need to be convinced

 

[Ian]

Have you seen the list of potential FA WRs? It's not pretty.

He's not a #1 but Greg Dortch looks like he has a lot of potential.
Allen Lazard has good size and could be ready to take off somewhere other than Green Bay.

There's not much to pick from.

I think they're going to have to do a similar Wes Welker-esque type of trade...I just haven't had time to figure out who that might be yet. Albeit, we were all curious about the talk he had with DeAndre Hopkins in Arizona, but I feel like that getting a guy already locked into a deal might be how they could approach it.

 

[Rob0729]

They need a real WR1, with Bourne, Meyers and Thornton. I would say Bourne is the only guy I'm not willing to give up on.

Agholor and Parker can both go because neither is or has been consistent and Agholor is ridiculously overpriced for a guy with his production. That and I'm still a little bitter about how bad Parker was on those early-season turnovers where he was the target on 4 of those 5 picks for Jones to start the season.

For WR depth, I don't hate Wilkerson. He was on the rise before he got hurt and he showed some promise. Both him and Tre Nixon. Although, obviously I'm not married to either.

I would trade for DeAndre Hopkins or possibly Tee Higgins (who might be had since the Bengals might have trouble paying him because he will want #1 WR money). Hopkins is more realistic and Belichick loves the guy. He is a true #1 WR.

I may let Meyers go because he may command more than he is worth on the open market because the WR free agent class sucks. If they can get him at the right price, keep him. But he isn't worth even average #1 WR money. He is a #2 WR.

Agholor is definitely gone.

I give Parker one more year. Parker counts $6.3 million against the cap and he can be a difference maker on the field. Just not consistently. As a #2 or #3 WR, he could be an excellent piece of the pie.

Obviously if Bourne is actually used correctly, he is an excellent #2 WR assuming you have a true #1.

I haven't given up on Thornton, but the guy needs to be coached better. He seems to lack the fundamentals which I think has a lot to do with the coaching debacle. If O'Brien or another experience OC comes in, I think they can coach him up better.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Is the conservativeness on Jones or Patricia? He wasn't conservative in the second half on Sunday. In fact, he threw some nice balls into tight windows (the Bourne catch on the sidelines being the most notable).



Even the alleyoops play to the practice squad TE was a nice pass in tight coverage (I think Henry would have caught it without having to deflecting it to Meyers).



Neither of those plays are conservative. There were other less notable plays where he was less than conservative.

And Jones wasn't conservative against the Vikes.

And as Kurt Warner said about Jones last year, that Jones' superpower was to scan the field quickly. In fact, he said there were times Jones was too quick.

I still think they gave Zappe a lot more help with a lot play action under center and being a run first team. Both of those things are things they got away from with Jones.

Great points - esp about the Vikes game and Warner's comments from last year, though down 22-0 gotta let him loose. There's definitely a regression this year, and it's clear where it's from. Any truth to what I heard about Judge possibly calling the plays in the 2nd half?

Side note not pertinent to the discussion: Scotty's almost an inch taller and way more explosive (no measured VJ, tho) than Henry. It's debatable whether HH would've come down with that.

 

[Rob0729]

Great points - esp about the Vikes game and Warner's comments from last year, though down 22-0 gotta let him loose. There's definitely a regression this year, and it's clear where it's from. Any truth to what I heard about Judge possibly calling the plays in the 2nd half?

Side note not pertinent to the discussion: Scotty's almost an inch taller and way more explosive (no measured VJ, tho) than Henry. It's debatable whether HH would've come down with that.

Maybe Henry wouldn't have gotten down to the endzone in time. Not sure. But I am not sure if Washington even really needed to jump for that ball. His hands weren't over his head when the ball hit them. His hands were at helmet level. If Henry could have gotten into the end zone in time, I think he would have been far more likely to come down with that ball.

I haven't heard anything about Judge making calls. I have heard from some of the local writers last week that Nick Caley could take over play calling duties. They kinda made it like nothing is off the table kind of thing and not that there was a plan for him to do it if the offense failed. So I am not sure if they ever made a change. As far as I know, no one is reporting it.

 

[Ian]

I may let Meyers go because he may command more than he is worth on the open market because the WR free agent class sucks. If they can get him at the right price, keep him. But he isn't worth even average #1 WR money. He is a #2 WR.

I don't know what he'll get in the WR market, but I'd like to think he'd probably have to believe he'd be more productive here than elsewhere. Not to mention, I don't know what type of off-the-field marketing he's doing but clearly, that value would be higher here also.

He's got the right attitude and work-ethic and he also does a great job of finding a way to get open. Hopefully it works out. Although I agree, if someone offers him a big payday, we'd have to let him walk.

 

[Jim Beankie]

Maybe Henry wouldn't have gotten down to the endzone in time. Not sure. But I am not sure if Washington even really needed to jump for that ball. His hands weren't over his head when the ball hit them. His hands were at helmet level. If Henry could have gotten into the end zone in time, I think he would have been far more likely to come down with that ball.

I haven't heard anything about Judge making calls. I have heard from some of the local writers last week that Nick Caley could take over play calling duties. They kinda made it like nothing is off the table kind of thing and not that there was a plan for him to do it if the offense failed. So I am not sure if they ever made a change. As far as I know, no one is reporting it.

I stand corrected on the Scotty jump - didn't realize it was barely over his head.

Patty seemed like he was calling the plays in the 2nd half, as well.

Also, re: Mac conservative - you didn't even mention the completed throw to Bourne in triple coverage.

 

[Rob0729]

I don't know what he'll get in the WR market, but I'd like to think he'd probably have to believe he'd be more productive here than elsewhere. Not to mention, I don't know what type of off-the-field marketing he's doing but clearly, that value would be higher here also.

He's got the right attitude and work-ethic and he also does a great job of finding a way to get open. Hopefully it works out. Although I agree, if someone offers him a big payday, we'd have to let him walk.

Meyers is the best WR in the free agency market. He is bound to be overpaid.

 

[Trolltolls]

Mac's WRs were DeVonte Smith, Jaylen Waddle and John Metchie. So he had that major advantage in college.

Waddle was out the majority of the year but the point remains

 

[Ian]

Meyers is the best WR in the free agency market. He is bound to be overpaid.

He certainly is statistically, but obviously, the question is would he have that same type of production in someone else's offense? And big-picture-wise, will the difference be enough to make him want to leave? Obviously, if it's crazy, he's out. But if it's more but the opportunities and outlook are better here, would he stay? I guess that's the biggest question I have.