Pats Rebuild Intermittent View of Progress

[BB8XSBW]

I do not think MJ is an elite QB and not sure he will ever reach that status. Great guy, great attitude...but...I would rather have Kenny Pickett to be honest with you.

Love the satire.

Hilarious stuff, OP.

 

[goheels22002]

It all comes down to Mac. And so far, he looks like the same player which is a limited passer.

Trent Dilfer says hi.

 

[crawhammer]

I mean, this isnt rocket surgery. Game #1 vs Buffalo, Jones won the game. Triumph said "he needs to beat Buffalo", he did, the win counts the same.

You're talking about style points, or seem to be, where Jones throws for 400 yds and 4TD in a shootout win. That would be cool, but if the Patriots win the game, and he doesn't, that's fine with me.

Jones's performance against the Bills last year had little to do with the 1-2 record. He cant make the Bills punt with the sheer force of his will. That's not how football works.

That win over Buffalo in the wind storm was a fluke. That game tells us nothing about either team. Jones also didn't play well against Buffalo in the two losses.

1. YOU have no idea what Mac Jones ceiling is. You sound like you don't believe what you see, but rather what you HEARD last April at the draft. Mac Jones had a GREAT year last season, not just a good one. He had close to 4000yds receiving as a rookie throwing to a very mediocre WR group and led them into the playoffs. He was the BEST of the 4 rookie QB's who were picked ahead of him. Now with a WR group that has added speed, size and more experience to that group (Thornton, when he returns, and Parker) The OL is STILL a work in progress, but if it gels as we hope, Mac CAN have a better year than last. You should put Mac in that "game manager" box (not that their's anything wrong with that)), anymore that you would have put Brady in that box back in 2000-2004.

Firstly, to your last point, comparing Jones to Brady isn't fair to Jones. He'll never match Brady's accomplishments at any point in his career. Who would? After 5 seasons, Brady had 3 Super Bowl rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and he had led the NFL in passing TDs (2002) and passing yards (2005). Jones isn't doing any of those things.

Secondly, I'm just guessing about Jones' potential. Obviously, he's only entering year two. However, I don't see elite potential at this point. You could have called his rookie season "great" if it wasn't for the last 5 games (when things went very poorly for Jones and the team). It's likely he'll be a good NFL quarterback for many seasons but he won't rival the elites.

As I said I like their skill position players... that's with a fully engaged Bourne and assuming health all round. However they're not an elite group.

My biggest concern with the offense is probably Patricia.

2. Josh Allen IS the best QB in the division and the Bills LOOK like they have a better overall roster as well, I don't disagree. BUT Bill has been able to beat better rosters for the last 2 decades. That's the beauty of football. It's the one game where better TEAMS, beat better rosters.

Right Bill beat better rosters when he had the best quarterback in the league on his side. That's not a knock on Bill either, it's just a fact, and having that advantage was HUGE.

3. The coaching staff has NOT been a train wreck. That is what you HEAR over and over again as the team goes thru the NORMAL ups and downs that occur when you make a significant shift in what you do on either offense or defense. And here's a clue. The defense is ALWAYS going to be ahead of the offense in camp. Patricia and Judge have over 20 years of coaching IN the NFL, they have PROVEN that they can coach over and over again. Patricia HAD ot master what offenses do in order to understand how to defend them. WHAT DON'T YOU GET ABOUT THAT. It might even be an advantage, understanding so well what moves defenses with take against certain formations, etc. I've said it over and over again. And despite the fact that both failed miserably as HC's, (BTW so did McDaniels), 99% of HC's eventually get fired, It doesn't mean they can't coach individuals and groups. Josh McDaniels got the play calling gig after just 2 years of coaching on the offensive side and 3 years coaching on the offensive side. Get over it.

Ok, well I'm not buying much of that. Until I'm proven wrong, Patricia seems like a really bad fit for a "new offense" and a second year quarterback. I don't even understand Judge's role at this point? Seems like he's Patricia's assistant. McDaniels had several seasons with the most brilliant quarterback ever so that's invaluable experience. I generally didn't have a problem with how McDaniels called a game so I would much prefer he be the OC now. I'd also much rather Bill turn the team over to McDaniels than who it looks like it's going to be now (Patricia).

4. Well this one is looking pretty good with FOUR players that seem like they will have a place in the regular rotation at their positions. (Strange, Thornton, JJones, and MJones. They also have a few darkhorses that may also stick like Roberts, Russey and Ray, right off the top of my head. Plus, Strong who looks he's going to go through the RB rookie year that so many have gone through. THAT's a rookie class that I'd take every year. But its about 3 years too early to really assess what this year's rookies will end up being. But even you would have to admit that "so far so good" would be a reasonable assessment to this rookie class.

I'm not just talking about this past draft, or even the last 2-3, I'm talking about the last 10. There's a lot of bad results in there... not every pick obviously but a majority.

From this past draft, Strange probably will be good, I suppose. The Thornton injury is a bigger concern for me than most I guess. He's a rookie missing a big chunk of time at the beginning of the season. It's going to slow his development and his involvement with the offense. Currently they have to figure out a good rotation of receivers without him so who knows what kind of role will be there for him once he's ready.

5. One comment on where we are in the rebuilding process. The rebuild has one more year to go, because it will be NEXT year where we will be VERY active in the FA market that we will have the wherewith-all between FA and another draft, that we will be able to fill in all the holes we find this season. So in 2023 the Pats will have a good QB with 2 years experience under his belt and more talent than he's had so far.

You make it sound like every move they'll make is going to work. We know that's not how the percentages actually work. Plus it's doubtful from this year to next that the Patriots will get anywhere even close to as good as Buffalo (who are legitimate Super Bowl contenders).

 

[jimnance]

At least until you're old enough to get arthritis...

Ouch!!

 

[goheels22002]

If I remember right Hightower was responsible for at least 2 70ish yard runs on major whiffs. Against indy and lac

I never want to say anything bad about Van Noy and Hightower - two of my all-time favorite Patriots LBs, but they were both exposed by the Bills in the two losses last year as slow to the point of attack and unable to cover receivers at the second level. It happens. Guys slow down as age and injuries take their toll.

This new group is going to be exciting to watch, I think. I like what they've got up front with Barmore in his second season, and the secondary is a great combination of veterans and youth. It won't be perfect, but the defense should be quicker to the ball and should be able to put more pressure on the QB this year with Matthew Judon leading the charge and drawing extra attention.

This coaching/coordinator noise is baloney - Joe Judge has ten years in the NFL and three seasons at Alabama. The guy has two college national championship rings and three Super Bowl rings. This ain't his first rodeo. Matt Patricia is in his 22nd year in the NFL. This "new coach" story line that baseball guy like Tony Masserotti and pot-stirrer Tom E. Curran are spewing is utter nonsense. Patricia and Judge have 32 years in the NFL - a pretty good replacement for a 2nd year QB who trained under Josh McDaniels as a rookie.

I expect more from Tom E. Curran than latching onto some idea that Patricia and Judge don't know what they are doing. They are football coaches, Since when are offensive and defensive coaches only capable of understanding and coaching one side of the line of scrimmage? It's like saying a guy who drives a manual Ford F-150 couldn't handle a Tesla that is more like driving an IPhone than a car.

If there is any team where players and coaches have to have deep understanding of the other side of the ball it is the Patriots. The coaching staff will be fine and outwork a lot of their opponents.

I'm pretty optimistic going into the season that this team is improved and flying under the radar.

 

[Boston Boxer]

2020 was going to be a lost year. Too many old players, no passing game, no money, no chance in hell.

2021 went as you'd expect with the influx of talent and a good rookie qb.

2022 to me is a wild card year. They can take a step back a la 2002, or they can scratch and claw their way a la 2001.

2023 and 2024 are the key years for me. Expecting at least an afccg appearance to signal their arrival as contenders.

i agree. Keep showing improvement this year and then in 2023 with another influx of cap room, we should be a lock for a playoff run. Of course the draft, FA, and roster construction is key, but there is no reason why we cant keep improving going forward

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I never want to say anything bad about Van Noy and Hightower - two of my all-time favorite Patriots LBs, but they were both exposed by the Bills in the two losses last year as slow to the point of attack and unable to cover receivers at the second level. It happens. Guys slow down as age and injuries take their toll.

This new group is going to be exciting to watch, I think. I like what they've got up front with Barmore in his second season, and the secondary is a great combination of veterans and youth. It won't be perfect, but the defense should be quicker to the ball and should be able to put more pressure on the QB this year with Matthew Judon leading the charge and drawing extra attention.

This coaching/coordinator noise is baloney - Joe Judge has ten years in the NFL and three seasons at Alabama. The guy has two college national championship rings and three Super Bowl rings. This ain't his first rodeo. Matt Patricia is in his 22nd year in the NFL. This "new coach" story line that baseball guys like Tony Masserotti and Tom E. Curran are spewing is utter nonsense. Patricia and Judge have 32 years in the NFL - a pretty good replacement for a 2nd year QB who trained under Josh McDaniels as a rookie.

I'm pretty optimistic going into the season that this team is improved and flying under the radar.

I agree and then Tavai got torched at the 2nd level in last week's game

 

[goheels22002]

I agree and then Tavai got torched at the 2nd level in last week's game

I don't have Tavai making the 53.

 

[BB8XSBW]

Jones's performance against the Bills last year had little to do with the 1-2 record. He cant make the Bills punt with the sheer force of his will. That's not how football works.

His performance in the postseason game was a good one, too.

People also forget that the team was forced to dress 4 practice squad players for that game - 3 of them being on defense. Kyle Dugger and Christian Barmore were playing with injuries that should have sidelines them for the season, and Judon had been playing hurt since the 4th quarter of the first Buffalo game. No Jonathan Jones.

That defense was doomed before the game even started.

 

[mike_usagisan]

I was interested in Phil Perry’s answer in his mail mag about the outside zone stuff.

“Belichick won't stick with it out of stubbornness. He has no patience for negative runs, in particular. If wide-zone plays are producing those, I could see him shifting gears quickly.”

I look back to the year the Pats became a power run team later in the season and could see this season unfolding similarly. Whatever works will probably get called more often and the identity of the team will be defined over the first several weeks.

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

Without seeing how this year will play out. It's been ok at best. For anyone who paid attention to last season...it ended badly!

Bills smoked us twice. Colts ran all over us and we didn't look good down the stretch. Picking a O lineman with the first pick this year was a big question mark. Some of those players from the drafts before aren't even here or about to get cut..


We didnt trade for or pick up any playmakers on offense or defense and that was a big need after the way last season ended. On top of the fact some of our big signings from the year before aside from H.Henry n Judon were a big Ehh!!

.. again still have to see how this season plays out, but this roster right now is nothing to write home about. Weak at corner, weak at LBs. Both defensive n offensive lines are struggling....

We could of kept Brady along with a few other players and coaches but BB decided not to!?



Man kind of looks like we didn't have to be in this position...

 

[Toofy]

Without seeing how this year will play out. It's been ok at best. For anyone who paid attention to last season...it ended badly!

Bills smoked us twice. Colts ran all over us and we didn't look good down the stretch. Picking a O lineman with the first pick this year was a big question mark. Some of those players from the drafts before aren't even here or about to get cut..


We didnt trade for or pick up any playmakers on offense or defense and that was a big need after the way last season ended. On top of the fact some of our big signings from the year before aside from H.Henry n Judon were a big Ehh!!

.. again still have to see how this season plays out, but this roster right now is nothing to write home about. Weak at corner, weak at LBs. Both defensive n offensive lines are struggling....

We could of kept Brady along with a few other players and coaches but BB decided not to!?



Man kind of looks like we didn't have to be in this position...

Seriously still talking about Brady leaving.

Brady had a contract with opt out set in 2019. He did not want to be here .

We could not have kept Brady. That's the price we have to pay for 4 super bowl appearances in 5 years.

Our rebuild will start next year. Let's have some patience . We were in playoffs in 2 years since Brady left and that too with a. QB who was not a top 10 pick.

Our strength is in sum of parts and execution where we punch above our weight , hightower , edelman being prime examples i.e. shining when it matters.

We cannot get back to Brady era. We got lucky for 2 decades . Now if we are able to compete and get say a ring once a decade , that's phenomenal .

Aaron Rodgers, mahomes, drew Brees have just 1 ring. Josh Allen is yet to get even a single ring .

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

Seriously still talking about Brady leaving.

Brady had a contract with opt out set in 2019. He did not want to be here .

We could not have kept Brady. That's the price we have to pay for 4 super bowl appearances in 5 years.

Our rebuild will start next year. Let's have some patience . We were in playoffs in 2 years since Brady left and that too with a. QB who was not a top 10 pick.

Our strength is in sum of parts and execution where we punch above our weight , hightower , edelman being prime examples i.e. shining when it matters.

We cannot get back to Brady era. We got lucky for 2 decades . Now if we are able to compete and get say a ring once a decade , that's phenomenal .

Aaron Rodgers, mahomes, drew Brees have just 1 ring. Josh Allen is yet to get even a single ring .

No this isnt a "all is lost cause Brady is not here." Post by me. This is we didnt have to usher him out the door when we did. He wanted to stay and he was basically forced out the door.

That story has been told on local radio for some time now..he wanted to stay and BB wanted to move on

Obviously at some point you have to move on from players. My point is, It didn't have to be when it was.

And how is the rebuild starting next year when the old regime was gone 2 years ago!?!? The rebuild was immediately after the QB left and you drafted a new one.

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

Also I'm pointing out that BB has made some head scratching decisions that are very questionable...

Ex. No number 1. Receiver when we past on so many the N'keal Harry draft.

No true No. 1 Corner and we are in a pass happy league..as i stated before this season is yet to unfold, but his decisions for this team since Brady left can be questioned.

 

[Toofy]

No this isnt a "all is lost cause Brady is not here." Post by me. This is we didnt have to usher him out the door when we did. He wanted to stay and he was basically forced out the door.

That story has been told on local radio for some time now..he wanted to stay and BB wanted to move on

Obviously at some point you have to move on from players. My point is, It didn't have to be when it was.

And how is the rebuild starting next year when the old regime was gone 2 years ago!?!? The rebuild was immediately after the QB left and you drafted a new one.

My point is rome was not built in a day. Same way the rebuild will take years .

So most likely next year is when we see it and we need to have couple of foundational years to steady the ship. Nobody predicted Josh Allen would grow up to be the player he is now looking at his sophomore year.

So let's just dampen our expectations a bit.
Mac looked terrible todaym doesn't mean we toss him out . Our best hope is for Mac to get better. Hopefully bill has some plan.

It's gonna be a long season...

 

[Triumph]

He threw 3 passes, though. The team then got curb stomped in two consecutive efforts after that once Buffalo decided they wanted to load the box and make Mac beat them.

I’m not the type of fan who somehow thinks he is on the team and gives the ridiculous “one game at a time” platitude, but I think we should focus on beating Miami first. They swept us last year and conceivably improved in the offseason. That’s going to be a tough outing.

Looking at these first games realistically and honestly 0 - 4 is a real possibility.

You dont just decide its time to turn the NE offense on for Miami. They have struggled all through camp and preseason.

 

[Ghost_Rush02]

My point is rome was not built in a day. Same way the rebuild will take years .

So most likely next year is when we see it and we need to have couple of foundational years to steady the ship. Nobody predicted Josh Allen would grow up to be the player he is now looking at his sophomore year.

So let's just dampen our expectations a bit.
Mac looked terrible todaym doesn't mean we toss him out . Our best hope is for Mac to get better. Hopefully bill has some plan.

It's gonna be a long season...

I understand a rebuild, this rebuild will take some time. That's expected to have a rebuild at some point. My point was it didn't have to look like what it's looking like.

Again. We don't have anyone on offense that scares the other teams defense. Defenses last year were saying the samething when they played us. That's scary especially cause BB does not draft receivers well and we have a young QB that could use the help.

I want to be dead wrong, but I think BB stubbornness could do in this franchise..

 

[Wozzy]

And anyone who doesn't agree with you is a "negative Nancy"...laughable.

So you think Mitch Trubisky is good… let me know how that works out for you guys this season.

 

[Toofy]

I understand a rebuild, this rebuild will take some time. That's expected to have a rebuild at some point. My point was it didn't have to look like what it's looking like.

Again. We don't have anyone on offense that scares the other teams defense. Defenses last year was saying that when they played us. That's scary especially cause BB does not draft receivers well and we have a young QB that could use the help.

I want to be dead wrong, but I think BB stubbornness could do in this franchise..

I would tend to agree on most of the pointers.

It does not look good and room for optimism is pretty less. Today's game was the equivalent of the buffalo trouncing in post season and we had our starters trounced by raiders second team.

I hope it's a execution issue and not talent issue.

I have a fear that we have too much malcontent in OL due to the changes.

T brown - feeling underpaid
Wynn - feeling like he is set up for failure
Onwenu - not getting put in position for success

It's difficult to operate when players feel so insecure. I hope bill and Patricia address the emotional aspect of it.

 

[Triumph]

BB isnt going to be here by the time this rebuild is finished.

He already stated that he has no plans to be Marv Levy who coached the Bills until 72 years old.

BB is 70