Patriots Injury News Thornton injury update

[TheRainMaker]

No, he wasn't upset...he was just like "Bill, Bill...c'mon." Honestly, I think it had more to do with the trade down than anything..

See at 19:22, he looks annoyed at the trade down

Lol at Mac holding the dog. I interpret that he was excited to see who they'd pick and now he has to wait longer. He's not mad like some of us would be at a value standpoint.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I don't particularly want Bourne out, I think he's good.

It's just puzzling seeing the targets or lack thereof.

Trying to figure out where Bourne stands is like cold-war Kremlinology. And we're various levels of stupid about it. There's the dum dums (or really the smart guys, just ask them,) talking about "the Russians." Then there's guys with a decent education calling them "the Soviets." Then there are bastards who took a semester abroad or have a dad in the foreign service or are just pretentious and say "the Sawviets," and there's this one motherhubbard who took 1 semester of Russian and says "Tovarisch pozhaluysta" no matter who's saying what. Ain't none of 'em know whether Chernenko or Andropov gets the call no matter what they say.

There's now a whole Mac-Jones-Says-KB-is-Fine tangent out there. Idunno maybe. Like I said, he's our most productive receiver a year ago. 1 or more trade at the top really might make sense. Then again, I might be letting hope substitute for evaluation on the other WRs.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Are we supposed to believe that Robert Kraft signed Drew Bledsoe to be Belichick's quarterback for a decade without Belichick's ok? I don't believe that for one second. Also, months later Belichick would opt for sticking with a 6th round quarterback over the $100 million dollar man. I don't think Kraft is allowing that if just months earlier he was telling Bill that Bledsoe would be the franchise quarterback for the next decade.


Bledsoe averaged 350 passing yards over the first 5 games of the 2002 season. By midseason he had 14 TDs and 5 INTs... Buffalo was 5-3 and Bledsoe was arguably an MVP candidate. However, then the second half of the season happened... Buffalo's record flipped to 3-5... in the 5 losses their offense averaged 10 points per game with Bledsoe having 4 TDs and 10 INTs. In one of the 3 wins he was 11-33 for 107. It seems very much like Bledsoe fell apart by the end of the 2002 season. He was terrible for the remainder of his career too.


Slater does not count as a WR... not even in the sense of "gotta count'em somewhere."

I like Kendrick Bourne and I'm willing to overlook him being a possible part-time headcase. He was the team's best WR last season and it wasn't even close. He's certainly better than Meyers. If you're looking at numbers then consider his catch percentage was much higher than Meyer's (78.6% to 65.9%). He's faster, has better hands, is more versatile, and he's a bigger downfield and TD threat.

Bourne and Parker should be the #1 and #2 WRs in whatever order you want to put them... they're a legit duo to start with. Thornton is reportedly done for nearly half of the season so who knows what the offense will look like by then or how he'll fit in. Agholor is the #3 at this point... he has the ability and experience to fill that spot... although his main issue throughout his career - his hands - could still be a problem. I like what I've seen of Humphrey to this point. His size is a plus and I'd like to see him get some consistent reps behind the top 3 WRs. I like Wilkerson over Nixon but I'm not sure either will contribute much this season. I think Meyers will be a moderate contributor but if he's actually being looked at as the #1 or #2 then we're all overrating the WR room.

Just less productive, Gotcha.

I can see you are all wound up about who's "better even if they produce 300 fewer yards..." It's a bar argument. Meyers gets open even if your name's Cam Newton. He's reliable. End of analysis. Bourne's another reliable guy who doesn't gash anybody, half a basis point slower than Meyers straight line for what it matters, and he pulled in 66 yards fewer. But this is a WR corps full of guys you can put on the field with security, assuming KB's problems are attitudinal rather than competence-driven.

Agholor, if he's ready to be the Good Agholor again, can be a guy that you have to at least account for somewhat differently, because he has a little burst on a good day. As you say, big ol LilJordan will be interesting.

But for x factor, this is why I was impressed by Thornton (4.28) and to a lesser extent 4.4-ish guys like Agholor or Wilkerson. Hauling 214 pounds around at 4.46 counts as fast in my book (Wikerson). My issue with Agholor is that fast as he still is, he loses focus. He gets the dropsies.

Bourne's 4.68, not so scary. I mean, he makes the plays, he's just not "that guy." I don't want to turn into a numbers-worshipper although this season, I'm a little like that purely because Thornton is just stupid fast. For Bourne's game, what matters is that he makes the plays, of course. He's never going to be the guy where you heave the ball and he'll just get it no matter how good your arm is or who's covering him. But he'll give you a nice little window to hit reliably. But do you have to gameplan around KB? Hell no. It's "Good Agholor," Thornton possibly upon return, Wilkerson, and Nixon (4.43) that are intriguing in terns of a track meet. But it's not just a track meet, they all get open and I have seen good routes out of Nixon and Agholor at least (and have to plead ignorance on Wilkerson and Thornton... but they somehow pull down the balls when they are on the field). Put that speed out there on the field.

So like I said, I have dwelled a shlitzload on the 40 times, but when you decide you're annointing the guy who's in the doghouse, realize that in a year where they're simplifying and verticalizing the pass game, you're balling up your fists and stamping your feet for the guy who runs a 4.68.

Bourne and even Parker are good bread and butter. Parker can be a sorta kinda 1 at the top of his game, when on the field. Nobody in the 4 NFL-blooded group is brilliant and unstoppable, but Parker and Aagholor can both burn. Our breaad and butter guys have been precisely the non-burners to date. I think this year we are bringing in more speed. Split them hairs, chief, it's not going to make KB all pro, and it's not going to turn any of our 4 NFL ready guys into bums.

 

[crawhammer]

Who knows about Bourne but your assertion that current leadership (or any leadership for that matter) can manage/sooth every disgruntled player or corner-case malcontent is not realistic.

We're talking about Bourne, right? I'm not saying anything about every disgruntled player everywhere. Bourne isn't a malcontent, that's too strong. Has he said or done anything that indicates he's a malcontent? It's merely been reported. If they trade him and don't get a replacement WR of equal ability then they're going to be worse on offense. They have no margin for error already.

By all accounts the implementation of the "new offense" (under the guidance of Matt Patricia and Joe Judge) has not gone well. Maybe Bourne has the balls to speak up about it. What they're doing is stupid in my opinion. Firstly, reconstructing an offense that supposedly had your rookie quarterback in the pro bowl. Then, putting losers like Patricia and Judge in charge of the process. No surprise it's a bit of a mess. If the offense struggles this season then they're screwed because the defense won't be competitive with the higher caliber offenses they're facing this season. There seems to be some potential for ugliness.

Just less productive, Gotcha.

I can see you are all wound up about who's "better even if they produce 300 fewer yards..." It's a bar argument. Meyers gets open even if your name's Cam Newton. He's reliable. End of analysis. Bourne's another reliable guy who doesn't gash anybody, half a basis point slower than Meyers straight line for what it matters, and he pulled in 66 yards fewer. But this is a WR corps full of guys you can put on the field with security, assuming KB's problems are attitudinal rather than competence-driven.

Agholor, if he's ready to be the Good Agholor again, can be a guy that you have to at least account for somewhat differently, because he has a little burst on a good day. As you say, big ol LilJordan will be interesting.

But for x factor, this is why I was impressed by Thornton (4.28) and to a lesser extent 4.4-ish guys like Agholor or Wilkerson. Hauling 214 pounds around at 4.46 counts as fast in my book (Wikerson). My issue with Agholor is that fast as he still is, he loses focus. He gets the dropsies.

Bourne's 4.68, not so scary. I mean, he makes the plays, he's just not "that guy." I don't want to turn into a numbers-worshipper although this season, I'm a little like that purely because Thornton is just stupid fast. For Bourne's game, what matters is that he makes the plays, of course. He's never going to be the guy where you heave the ball and he'll just get it no matter how good your arm is or who's covering him. But he'll give you a nice little window to hit reliably. But do you have to gameplan around KB? Hell no. It's "Good Agholor," Thornton possibly upon return, Wilkerson, and Nixon (4.43) that are intriguing in terns of a track meet. But it's not just a track meet, they all get open and I have seen good routes out of Nixon and Agholor at least (and have to plead ignorance on Wilkerson and Thornton... but they somehow pull down the balls when they are on the field). Put that speed out there on the field.

So like I said, I have dwelled a shlitzload on the 40 times, but when you decide you're annointing the guy who's in the doghouse, realize that in a year where they're simplifying and verticalizing the pass game, you're balling up your fists and stamping your feet for the guy who runs a 4.68.

Bourne and even Parker are good bread and butter. Parker can be a sorta kinda 1 at the top of his game, when on the field. Nobody in the 4 NFL-blooded group is brilliant and unstoppable, but Parker and Aagholor can both burn. Our breaad and butter guys have been precisely the non-burners to date. I think this year we are bringing in more speed. Split them hairs, chief, it's not going to make KB all pro, and it's not going to turn any of our 4 NFL ready guys into bums.

Meyers' ceiling is lower than Bourne's, Parker's and Agholor's. Probably lower than Humphrey's too. Thornton is reportedly out 8 weeks, right? It's probably going to kill his rookie season. Unless the offense is a disaster, he'll have a hard time getting game reps once he's healthy.

Parker, Bourne and Agholor are representative of a good 1-3 at WR in the NFL. Not top 5 but good enough to be plenty productive with a legitimate franchise quarterback. More importantly they have to get there o-line ready to start the season. Not just for pass protection but for the best part of their offense, the running game.

 

[RobertWeathers]

We're talking about Bourne, right? I'm not saying anything about every disgruntled player everywhere. Bourne isn't a malcontent, that's too strong. Has he said or done anything that indicates he's a malcontent? It's merely been reported. If they trade him and don't get a replacement WR of equal ability then they're going to be worse on offense. They have no margin for error already.

By all accounts the implementation of the "new offense" (under the guidance of Matt Patricia and Joe Judge) has not gone well. Maybe Bourne has the balls to speak up about it. What they're doing is stupid in my opinion. Firstly, reconstructing an offense that supposedly had your rookie quarterback in the pro bowl. Then, putting losers like Patricia and Judge in charge of the process. No surprise it's a bit of a mess. If the offense struggles this season then they're screwed because the defense won't be competitive with the higher caliber offenses they're facing this season. There seems to be some potential for ugliness.


Meyers' ceiling is lower than Bourne's, Parker's and Agholor's. Probably lower than Humphrey's too. Thornton is reportedly out 8 weeks, right? It's probably going to kill his rookie season. Unless the offense is a disaster, he'll have a hard time getting game reps once he's healthy.

Parker, Bourne and Agholor are representative of a good 1-3 at WR in the NFL. Not top 5 but good enough to be plenty productive with a legitimate franchise quarterback. More importantly they have to get there o-line ready to start the season. Not just for pass protection but for the best part of their offense, the running game.

It's risky- but not stupid. It's a fact the vast majority of college prospects and pro players on other teams are not well-versed in the E/P system. Furthermore the system here is 20+ years of Brady/Josh handiwork. It's way too complex.

They needed to make it simpler so rookies and FAs could produce sooner-rather-than-later and the way to do that is to become more mainstream.

Now you can certainly argue they don't have the right coaches to implement this new system.

I'm not sure what Bourne's problem is. He seems unsettled. Maybe hes frustrated. Maybe hes disappointed in the # of looks hes been getting from Mac. Maybe the coaches have cut back on his role. What we do know is he is not playing up to his ability in practices.

Let's see what the reg season brings.

 

[Love The Drake]

It's risky- but not stupid. It's a fact the vast majority of college prospects and pro players on other teams are not well-versed in the E/P system. Furthermore the system here is 20+ years of Brady/Josh handiwork. It's way too complex.

They needed to make it simpler so rookies and FAs could produce sooner-rather-than-later and the way to do that is to become more mainstream.

Now you can certainly argue they don't have the right coaches to implement this new system.

I'm not sure what Bourne's problem is. He seems unsettled. Maybe hes frustrated. Maybe hes disappointed in the # of looks hes been getting from Mac. Maybe the coaches have cut back on his role. What we do know is he is not playing up to his ability in practices.

Let's see what the reg season brings.

Maybe it’s a contract thing?
Buyers remorse on his free agent deal.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Maybe it’s a contract thing?
Buyers remorse on his free agent deal.

His deal is el primo for the Pats. I can't imagine they were disappointed with his play last year. He was very good for the $.

Hes slated to make $5m this year. Pure speculation but maybe he feels underpaid and is sulking? IDK

 

[rochrist]

Maybe it’s a contract thing?
Buyers remorse on his free agent deal.

That thought has occurred to me.

 

[Pats2000]

Are we supposed to believe that Robert Kraft signed Drew Bledsoe to be Belichick's quarterback for a decade without Belichick's ok? I don't believe that for one second. Also, months later Belichick would opt for sticking with a 6th round quarterback over the $100 million dollar man. I don't think Kraft is allowing that if just months earlier he was telling Bill that Bledsoe would be the franchise quarterback for the next decade.


Bledsoe averaged 350 passing yards over the first 5 games of the 2002 season. By midseason he had 14 TDs and 5 INTs... Buffalo was 5-3 and Bledsoe was arguably an MVP candidate. However, then the second half of the season happened... Buffalo's record flipped to 3-5... in the 5 losses their offense averaged 10 points per game with Bledsoe having 4 TDs and 10 INTs. In one of the 3 wins he was 11-33 for 107. It seems very much like Bledsoe fell apart by the end of the 2002 season. He was terrible for the remainder of his career too.


Slater does not count as a WR... not even in the sense of "gotta count'em somewhere."

I like Kendrick Bourne and I'm willing to overlook him being a possible part-time headcase. He was the team's best WR last season and it wasn't even close. He's certainly better than Meyers. If you're looking at numbers then consider his catch percentage was much higher than Meyer's (78.6% to 65.9%). He's faster, has better hands, is more versatile, and he's a bigger downfield and TD threat.

Bourne and Parker should be the #1 and #2 WRs in whatever order you want to put them... they're a legit duo to start with. Thornton is reportedly done for nearly half of the season so who knows what the offense will look like by then or how he'll fit in. Agholor is the #3 at this point... he has the ability and experience to fill that spot... although his main issue throughout his career - his hands - could still be a problem. I like what I've seen of Humphrey to this point. His size is a plus and I'd like to see him get some consistent reps behind the top 3 WRs. I like Wilkerson over Nixon but I'm not sure either will contribute much this season. I think Meyers will be a moderate contributor but if he's actually being looked at as the #1 or #2 then we're all overrating the WR room.

Who said Thornton is done for half the season? He needs about 7-8 weeks. That's game 4 or 5

 

[crawhammer]

Who said Thornton is done for half the season? He needs about 7-8 weeks. That's game 4 or 5

Whatever. That's still significant time for a rookie to miss while the rest of the offense is hopefully settling into a groove. If they're clicking nicely by the time he's ready to come back then he's probably not going to see a lot of game reps, at least initially. I think the injury and the time away is going to be a major setback for his rookie season. Is there any other way to view it? Like somehow the injury is going to speed up his development.

 

[BTTA]

Greg Bedard. Since he’s behind a paywall, I’m linking to the crappy NESN summary instead.
Kendrick Bourne Trade? Why Patriots Receiver Reportedly Is Disgruntled

I've read Bedard's writing on Bourne. It is based on speculation and wondering, not facts. He puts out an idea, then says that it sounds like it might be true because he's heard that people on the team are saying something similar.

 

[BTTA]

Whatever. That's still significant time for a rookie to miss while the rest of the offense is hopefully settling into a groove. If they're clicking nicely by the time he's ready to come back then he's probably not going to see a lot of game reps, at least initially. I think the injury and the time away is going to be a major setup for his rookie season. Is there any other way to view it? Like somehow the injury is going to speed up his development.

The other way to see it is that, as a rookie with "a lot to learn still" according to his position coach, he was going to get very limited action in the first half of the season anyway. Yes, his learning will be slowed. It isn't either/or as you imply. This wasn't horrible for him, nor is it good for him. It's just a bump in the road. Hopefully he'll learn something about being 180 pounds and what to do when 800 pounds of NFL defenders are about to have a meeting on top of you.

 

[Pats2000]

Whatever. That's still significant time for a rookie to miss while the rest of the offense is hopefully settling into a groove. If they're clicking nicely by the time he's ready to come back then he's probably not going to see a lot of game reps, at least initially. I think the injury and the time away is going to be a major setback for his rookie season. Is there any other way to view it? Like somehow the injury is going to speed up his development.

I feel like the Panthers are pieces of ****

 

[crawhammer]

I feel like the Panthers are pieces of ****

Well, they're not a good football team anyway. McCaffrey probably won't make it past October. Their quarterback situation is pretty bad. Their schedule is soft but they still won't win more than 5 games. I think if you combined the rosters of Carolina and Atlanta you still couldn't come up with a decent team.

 

[Pats2000]

Well, they're not a good football team anyway. McCaffrey probably won't make it past October. Their quarterback situation is pretty bad. Their schedule is soft but they still won't win more than 5 games. I think if you combined the rosters of Carolina and Atlanta you still couldn't come up with a decent team.

Just trying to ruin it for us

 

[PatsFanInVa]

Feh, @crawhammer doesn't suffer from self-doubt, that is for damn sure... rattling off who is a 1, a 2, and a 3 despite their actual performances and without a second thought.

You can look at Meyers' performances over the years and it's a straight line in the right direction. I didn't see any reason to believe he's having anything but a great camp. He's just in that same category as Bourne, but not as slow as Bourne: he's reliable.

We don't know when we get Thornton back - anytime from week 5 onward sounds possible. If Wilkerson goes on IR, designated, it would only be because of the pileup of guys on the roster. Despite liking big ol liljordan, I not rooting for him to make the cut--that goes to the vagaries of the playbook. Do we NEED the big slow guy with hands, when we have bigger and faster guys called tight ends? Is there some subset of plays where that exact guy is needed?

When Ty is healthy again, if and when we so desire, we can line up guys who run, respectively, a 4.28, and 2 guys in the low 4.4s, I believe there are a 4.42 (Agholor) and a 4.43 in there, with a couple more kludges in the 4.46 area (e.g. Parker). The difference isn't that huge between 4.42 and 4.46, but when you get to 4.63 and 4.68, that's a different level of struggle to produce, and that's where our two best producers last year come in--Meyers and the slower Bourne. If the new offense isn't going to reward KB's physical skillset, that might be part of his issue. What if regular getting open is enough? Suddenly being able to digest the complex system doesn't make him the bomb. Same for Meyers, but Meyers digested
what was in front of him right now, and said, this is what I have to succeed at right now... and is doing exactly that. KB, not so much.

Even the glacial Liljordan is showing us something in camp. Again, not so KB.

I'm sure he could make the argument that @crawhammer on Patsfans says he has a higher ceiling than Meyers... but wtf good does that do anybody, if he can't play when you stick him on a field?

It would be good to see something from KB this week, and I'm not talking about a good right hook.

whether it's "getting" that you still have to compete, whether he isn't getting the simpler O when he did get the tougher O, whatever it is, right now KB 2021 =/= KB 2022, in New England. I will sprinkle in another healthy dose of "who tf knows" at the end so nobody thinks I'm a simpleton who believes it's cut and dried, but damn. Why do you think they have training camp?

This guy is not some world beater, it's a guy who barely put together 800 yards of production last year. Meyers is having a good camp, KB is having a bad one, we have a ton of young guys who are looking (possibly) good enough to start somewhere, we drafted high at WR, and we signed a bona fide starter.... and KB is thinking, no sweat, I'm a lock? And you're agreeing?

Where is it written that KB stays, whether he's productive or not?

 

[TommyD4207]

So many words typed about things that haven't happened.
It's really amazing every single time it happens.

 

[FCB02062]

perfect excuse for bill the coach/gm to redshirt Thornton and use his roster spot for a coveted kick/punt coverage/garbage DB guy....best of both worlds for coach Bill....takes speed of the field and gives him another gunner

 

[Sicilian]

So many words typed about things that haven't happened.
It's really amazing every single time it happens.

If you're thirsty enough, you'll drink your own pee.

 

[Gumby]

Whatever. That's still significant time for a rookie to miss while the rest of the offense is hopefully settling into a groove. If they're clicking nicely by the time he's ready to come back then he's probably not going to see a lot of game reps, at least initially. I think the injury and the time away is going to be a major setback for his rookie season. Is there any other way to view it? Like somehow the injury is going to speed up his development.

on the plus side, if he misses 4-6 games; then he won’t hit the rookie wall til after the SB week