Dan Shaughnessy: Biggest douche bag of them all?

[Kontradiction]

You are drawing the wrong inference of brady being "innocent of tampering". Thats like saying OJ was innocent of murder. Takes two to tamper, and he was a willing participant.

It takes one to tamper. That’s why the rule makes the team tampering punishable for it. The tampered party can either respond or not. Considering Brady never signed with Miami, and you don’t have the transcripts, there is no evidence whatsoever that he was a “willing participant.” LOL at the murder comparison.

The only thing is Brady wont be punished for it. Those are two completely separate things.

He could be if it was proven that his actions were conduct detrimental, as you originally stated. He wasn’t. Nor is the team seeking compensation.

And the illustrative point of a dog doing some thing smelly inside is indeed apropos ... it is not post hoc, ergo propter hoc because the dog did indeed **** in the house. Thats why i didnt use the adage when theres smoke there fire, because thats not always true. We know that Brady did indeed have dealings with the fins over the course of the 2019 season, which was a **** move.

But you have no proof that he was actually dealing with them. It’s just how you feel. As I just told Andy, the end results don’t align with these claims. He didn’t sign there. You can scream that it’s irrelevant until the cows come home, but it is, indeed, very relevant.

The pertinent section of the contract you are looking for is:


That pretty much says it all. Unless you consider contract negotiations with a division rival a show of loyalty...

I’m still awaiting proof that there was a two-way conversation about a contract. I’ll also take some proof that he didn’t inform the team of Miami talking to him. Until that happens, and because we know the end result, we can only conclude that he was giving his best efforts and loyalty to the club while he was still under contract.

But please defend him more. Its amusing to see how far people will go to not find fault with their heroes.

I’d defend any player in this situation. You probably would, too, if you didn’t already have such a recorded bias. And that bias doesn’t only extend to this thread. That bias was actually present while he was still here…

Tom Brady: an honest take

Okay but now the thing we are bashing Brady for he is doing in Tampa. Meanwhile our current QB is not doing that? So in 20 years, twice Brady didn’t do this. In 2 years, Stidham already isn’t doing it this season. Seems kinda frivolous to hold this over Brady’s head. Oh and Brady at least has...

www.patsfans.com

Like Andy and CHB, you’ve already arrived at your conclusion and you’re working backwards to try to justify it. I suspect that’s why you’re beginning to get bitter in your last two sentences of your post. You’re so biased that you’ve actively done everything you can to sweep a division rival tampering with one of our guys under the rug in order to go out of your way to bash the QB who won six Super Bowls here.

 

[Pape]

It takes one to tamper. That’s why the rule makes the team tampering punishable for it. The tampered party can either respond or not. Considering Brady never signed with Miami, and you don’t have the transcripts, there is no evidence whatsoever that he was a “willing participant.” LOL at the murder comparison.



He could be if it was proven that his actions were conduct detrimental, as you originally stated. He wasn’t. Nor is the team seeking compensation.



But you have no proof that he was actually dealing with them. It’s just how you feel. As I just told Andy, the end results don’t align with these claims. He didn’t sign there. You can scream that it’s irrelevant until the cows come home, but it is, indeed, very relevant.



I’m still awaiting proof that there was a two-way conversation about a contract. I’ll also take some proof that he didn’t inform the team of Miami talking to him. Until that happens, and because we know the end result, we can only conclude that he was giving his best efforts and loyalty to the club while he was still under contract.



I’d defend any player in this situation. You probably would, too, if you didn’t already have such a recorded bias. And that bias doesn’t only extend to this thread. That bias was actually present while he was still here…

Tom Brady: an honest take

Okay but now the thing we are bashing Brady for he is doing in Tampa. Meanwhile our current QB is not doing that? So in 20 years, twice Brady didn’t do this. In 2 years, Stidham already isn’t doing it this season. Seems kinda frivolous to hold this over Brady’s head. Oh and Brady at least has...

www.patsfans.com

Like Andy and CHB, you’ve already arrived at your conclusion and you’re working backwards to try to justify it. I suspect that’s why you’re beginning to get bitter in your last two sentences of your post. You’re so biased that you’ve actively done everything you can to sweep a division rival tampering with one of our guys under the rug in order to go out of your way to bash the QB who won six Super Bowls here.

Just stop.

I wasn't the one who wrote that the dolphins and Brady had multiple and persistent conversations over the course of 2019. It was the league investigator.

So you say i have no proof? We have all read the executive summary of the nfls decision to penalize the dolphins. That is the proof. Whether you disagree has no bearing on reality. It is definitive proof. No amount of mental gymnastics on your part will change that. Period. End of story. You are just flat out wrong.

And as a result, everything you have or will post is just you trying to play word games, setting up strawman arguments and playing the what about game... An argument or debate balanced on willfully misintererpreted information we all know is incorrect is not credible to any degree.

 

[Guts]

I'd never thought I'd see the day where Patriots fans use the NFL investigators of all people(see Spygaye)as undeniable proof to push their anti-Brady narrative. Fun times

 

[Ring 6]

Occam’s Razor (common sense, in your words) will tell you that it was most likely not a serious two-way discussion about signing there. If it was, Brady would be there and not Tampa. Miami had a full year’s head start with over $100M in cap space to work with.



Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. There were reports of a dissolving relationship between BB, Brady, Guerrero, and Gronk as far back as the middle of the 2017 season. You’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole because you’re working backwards to try and support a faulty conclusion that you’ve already arrived at without evidence to back up your claims.

As for playing the worst football of his career because of the tampering? That’s an interesting claim. So, suddenly, the player with the greatest work ethic and will to win as well as the biggest chip on his shoulder mailed it in, and that’s that? The funny thing is, you didn’t seem to come to that conclusion until after he departed. In 2019 and early 2020, you were singing a very different tune…

As much as I absolutely hate to say it, Brady has not been playing well this year.

Brady is fine. It’s the O-line that has turned him into a contestant for “Dancing with the Stars”. Anybody that has played QB knows how distracting it is to think about someone in your face which forces you to take your off of your receivers. Bad O-line play doesn’t allow plays to develop which...

www.patsfans.com

NFL Rumors: Tom Brady Won’t Take Hometown Discount To Stay With Patriots

Hmmmm,,,,,, this is getting interesting. NFL Rumors: Tom Brady Won’t Take Hometown Discount To Stay With Patriots

www.patsfans.com

And the final one, a very tacit admission that he didn’t have the right players in 2019, and that he (and you) trusted BB to get the “right players” in here in 2020…

Where does Brady play in 2020?

Brady is going to Miami... - Big Salary Cap Available. 120-150M 3 year contract G. - Brady leaves - mentions Montana didn't finish in SF. - Flores - TB12 transforms locker room & Miami - Stays in AFC East - Plays NE & Belichick 2x/yr... The Challenge.. - Brady going against Steve Belichick's...

www.patsfans.com

This stance that he “played the worst football of his career” and that it was because of the tampering is a new development, and we both know why that is. It’s because he’s not here anymore. It couldn’t have been that he didn’t have the “right players” around him (in that case - the worst WR and TE position grouping in the league that year) on top of the fact that the OL was a “sieve” (your words that season which I can also reference if you’d like) on top of Brady having tennis elbow, am I right?



Their division rival did a good enough job of that all on their own.



You’re not in a court of law. You’re in a debate. And when you’re in a debate and you make a claim, the onus is on you to either prove that claim by supplying information to back it, or to make the claim logically connect without having to lean on a host of logical fallacies. Here are the facts:

1. Miami tampered and had $100M+ in cap space to spend. Logically, one would think they would offer the years and money he was looking for if they were seriously discussing a deal. But the deal never happened and Brady went to Tampa.

2. Brady made it clear he wanted to play until 45. The team had multiple chances after 2016, 2017, and 2018 to make that happen. They didn’t and, instead, opted for two-year deals that were really just year to year.

3. The rift between Brady, BB, and Guerrero was being reported in 2017 - well before the tampering began in August of 2019.



You’re moving the goal posts now. If that’s the case, then why haven’t the Patriots pushed for compensation? How do you know that Brady didn’t inform the team of this as it was happening? Can you tell me the level of detail the discussion had without guesswork or conspiracy theory? Of course not. Because the results disprove everything you assert here unless/until the transcripts are released. In other words, the results don’t align with your claims.



Then why isn’t the team lobbying for compensation if the harm was that bad?



Not really. You’re dropping logical fallacies because you’ve convinced yourself that the tampering harmed the team and is the real reason he left. You’ve made a conclusion and you’re working backwards to prove it (confirmation bias) when all available information easily dispels your claims.

You want people to believe that a team in Florida (where he wanted to play) that had $100M to play with and a 1-year head start in negotiations went into such detail with Brady that it derailed his 2019 season, forced him to leave, and then he DIDN’T end up there? That does not logically add up in any way, shape, or form.



It’s the only thing that matters if you believe there was a two-way discussion about a contract taking place.



More guesswork. Right back to my original point that these claims cannot be proven without guessing or conspiracy theory. They had $100M in cap space to play with and had a boatload of draft picks in the next couple of drafts. They were a very attractive destination… especially if his relationship deteriorated with the team to the point that you say it did. It would mean that he could play the Patriots twice a year.



Doesn’t seem obvious at all.

Yeah I’m not interested in responding to 20 different blurbs, so I will hit a few.
-I did think differently until this came to light. I gave him the benefit of doubt that he was injured.
-I’m not really in a debate, I am just commenting in what I’ve seen and what is obvious to me. I get that if you want to feel differently you can put a different spin on it, and that’s fine, but nothing you said changes my opinion that Brady acted differently, okayed differently and tampering surely had an impact. That impact absolutely can be driving a wedge between Brady and the Patriots even if the result is he wants to play for one of the other 30.
-I’m not saying Brady didn’t try to win, but when push came to shove he wasn’t the same all-in, all-team guy. We agree he turned against the organization. I think it’s obvious that another team trying to steal him away helped that happen. Much of the reason people give for Brady wanting out really are things that had been happening forever and he was part of building that culture. Sure maybe one day he woke up and hate the patriots, but Occams Razor tells me that when at exactly the same time a competitor was trying to steal him away, that it had an impact.
He signed an extension 2 years earlier.

 

[Kontradiction]

Just stop.

Why would I? Facts, logic, the rules, and history are all on my side. You’re arguing based on nothing but conjecture and conspiracy. If more facts which support your argument somehow become available, I’ll concede. Until then, it’s more than apparent that you’re guided more by bias than fact or logic.

I wasn't the one who wrote that the dolphins and Brady had multiple and persistent conversations over the course of 2019. It was the league investigator.

The same league investigators that didn’t know what the Ideal Gas Law was said there were multiple detailed conversations. They didn’t specify the subject matter of those conversations, whether the conversations were one way or two way, or if Brady had informed the team.

So you say i have no proof? We have all read the executive summary of the nfls decision to penalize the dolphins. That is the proof.

It’s proof that the league found the Dolphins contacted Brady and Payton inappropriately. It’s not proof whether Brady or Payton had serious contract negotiations with Miami. If they had, I’d wager one, or both, would be in Miami right now.

Whether you disagree has no bearing on reality. It is definitive proof. No amount of mental gymnastics on your part will change that. Period. End of story. You are just flat out wrong.

If it makes you feel better to say that, then who am I to argue?

And as a result, everything you have or will post is just you trying to play word games, setting up strawman arguments and playing the what about game...

Cite a straw man, please.

An argument or debate balanced on willfully misintererpreted information we all know is incorrect is not credible to any degree.

Pot, meet kettle. You’re arguing that it takes two to tamper. It doesn’t. It only takes one. The one who tampered got punished.

You’re arguing that Brady’s conduct was detrimental to the team, citing a report from traditionally idiotic and crooked league sources without transcripts available. Brady didn’t sign with Miami nor has the team publicly asked for compensation.

You’re arguing that Miami talking to Brady hurt the Patriots in contract negotiations after the 2019 season. There was no new contract offer after the 2019 season from New England.

Your points don’t have any basis in reality, to date. You’re just arguing based on how you feel, and how you feel is tainted by the fact that you wanted Brady gone before he even left, and admitted as much yourself.

 

[Pape]

Why would I? Facts, logic, the rules, and history are all on my side. You’re arguing based on nothing but conjecture and conspiracy. If more facts which support your argument somehow become available, I’ll concede. Until then, it’s more than apparent that you’re guided more by bias than fact or logic.

facts & logic on your side? Um no. We know what happened "numerous and detailed" i believe was part of the description. More intellectually dishonest statements from you does not make it otherwise, in as much as you might wish it were so. Your argument is based on the willful misinterpretation of known facts.

The same league investigators that didn’t know what the Ideal Gas Law was said there were multiple detailed conversations. They didn’t specify the subject matter of those conversations, whether the conversations were one way or two way, or if Brady had informed the team.

Not the same investigators, though, were they?
Mary Jo White was in investigator of Tampergate.
Ted Wells... is not Mary Jo White

Different people, different firms, different scenarios...

It’s proof that the league found the Dolphins contacted Brady and Payton inappropriately. It’s not proof whether Brady or Payton had serious contract negotiations with Miami. If they had, I’d wager one, or both, would be in Miami right now.

Sure is proof.

If it makes you feel better to say that, then who am I to argue?

Doesn't make me feel better or worse. Its a simple statement of fact.

Cite a straw man, please.

By claiming that I am working backwards from a predetermined conclusion.

Pot, meet kettle. You’re arguing that it takes two to tamper. It doesn’t. It only takes one. The one who tampered got punished.

In this case, there were two parties who were repeatedly involved in this, Brady and the Dolphins. Their dalliance lasted the course of two teams, and one that ultimately lead to the fake retirement of Brady, trying to get out of Tampa...

You’re arguing that Brady’s conduct was detrimental to the team, citing a report from traditionally idiotic and crooked league sources without transcripts available. Brady didn’t sign with Miami nor has the team publicly asked for compensation.

I am. And his conduct did have a negative impact on the franchise.
It also had a negative impact on their negotiations with him because it put him in a superior negotiating position.

And, again, it is irrelevant that Brady didn't sign with Miami. The only thing that is relevant is that he had multiple and detailed discussions with another team while under contract with the New England Patriots, who held his exclusive negotiating rights in 2019.

You’re arguing that Miami talking to Brady hurt the Patriots in contract negotiations after the 2019 season. There was no new contract offer after the 2019 season from New England.

The 2 year 53 million dollar offer isn't something I made up. Standing offer. He didn't bother to call NE afterwards, which is a different matter in and of itself. That was his right at that time because he was a free agent.

Your points don’t have any basis in reality, to date. You’re just arguing based on how you feel, and how you feel is tainted by the fact that you wanted Brady gone before he even left, and admitted as much yourself.

Of course they have basis. They are firmly rooted in the discipline the league passed down to Miami. Brady was a **** for dealing with the dolphins.

and YAAASSSSSSS, you are sooooo right, that I even took the time in 2019 to make this... one pic from every year he was in New England because I wanted him gone before he even left...

In Celebration Of Tom Brady, Bill Belichick & The New England Patriots

So I keep reading that Brady is: depressed pissed off not happy ready to leave throwing the team under the bus blah, blah, blah I don't see it. I see a QB who wants his side of the ball to get better. He is unhappy that the offense is not contributing at a normal level. He expects more out...

www.patriotsplanet.net

 

[Kontradiction]

Yeah I’m not interested in responding to 20 different blurbs, so I will hit a few.
-I did think differently until this came to light. I gave him the benefit of doubt that he was injured.
-I’m not really in a debate, I am just commenting in what I’ve seen and what is obvious to me. I get that if you want to feel differently you can put a different spin on it, and that’s fine, but nothing you said changes my opinion that Brady acted differently, okayed differently and tampering surely had an impact. That impact absolutely can be driving a wedge between Brady and the Patriots even if the result is he wants to play for one of the other 30.
-I’m not saying Brady didn’t try to win, but when push came to shove he wasn’t the same all-in, all-team guy. We agree he turned against the organization. I think it’s obvious that another team trying to steal him away helped that happen. Much of the reason people give for Brady wanting out really are things that had been happening forever and he was part of building that culture. Sure maybe one day he woke up and hate the patriots, but Occams Razor tells me that when at exactly the same time a competitor was trying to steal him away, that it had an impact.
He signed an extension 2 years earlier.

Brady played differently because he had a tennis elbow injury that he was regularly icing in postgame pressers, and had a surrounding cast of pass catchers who were so bad that BB totally overhauled those positions not even two years later.

The argument that the conversation with the Dolphins changed him doesn’t withstand scrutiny. In the absence of proof, which you don’t have, you need to be able to make the claim click, logically, for the person you’re in a discussion with (me). It doesn’t. To summarize…

You say the conversations with Miami hurt his relationship with the Patriots, but there were reports of his relationship deteriorating two seasons before that when Bill decided to act against Guerrero.

You say that he didn’t accept a hypothetical offer from a team with $100M in cap space “probably because they sucked,” and Brady’s main focus is winning while, simultaneously, working backwards and accusing Brady of not being an all-in, team-first guy in his last year here. That doesn’t logically compute.

You claim the conversations must have been back-and-forth between Brady and Miami, and were so detailed that he mailed it in during his last year here, yet he didn’t sign with them and has even signed a lucrative contract to call games after he retires instead of taking an ownership position.

The most likely explanation is usually the correct one. That explanation is the one that the facts as we know them today, combined with what actually transpired since August of 2019 and where Brady is playing today, support.

 

[Ring 6]

Brady played differently because he had a tennis elbow injury that he was regularly icing in postgame pressers, and had a surrounding cast of pass catchers who were so bad that BB totally overhauled those positions not even two years later.

The argument that the conversation with the Dolphins changed him doesn’t withstand scrutiny. In the absence of proof, which you don’t have, you need to be able to make the claim click, logically, for the person you’re in a discussion with (me). It doesn’t. To summarize…

You say the conversations with Miami hurt his relationship with the Patriots, but there were reports of his relationship deteriorating two seasons before that when Bill decided to act against Guerrero.

You say that he didn’t accept a hypothetical offer from a team with $100M in cap space “probably because they sucked,” and Brady’s main focus is winning while, simultaneously, working backwards and accusing Brady of not being an all-in, team-first guy in his last year here. That doesn’t logically compute.

You claim the conversations must have been back-and-forth between Brady and Miami, and were so detailed that he mailed it in during his last year here, yet he didn’t sign with them and has even signed a lucrative contract to call games after he retires instead of taking an ownership position.

The most likely explanation is usually the correct one. That explanation is the one that the facts as we know them today, combined with what actually transpired since August of 2019 and where Brady is playing today, support.

I don’t have proof because I am not privy to what happened, just as you don’t have proof that it didn’t. Your claim that the absence of verifiable proof only confirms your opinion is a logical fallacy.

The argument that the Dolphins didn’t change him doesn’t withstand scrutiny because he did act differently and you don’t know how the Dolphins communicated with him, but it’s the one thing that changed.

You are creating beliefs and tagging them to my opinion so you can dismiss my opinion, another logical fallacy.

Miami tampering and Brady participating in my opinion served to drive a wedge between the Patriots and Brady. Miami’s intent could well have been to separate Brady from NE whether they get him or not. Miami interfering in the exclusive rights the Patriots had, by definition harm their ability to negotiate with their player.
Brady’s comments throughout the season were different than ever before.
Thinking that a team offering him ownership at the very time he made the statement “I’m just an employee here” does not show they were successful in driving a wedge between the team and player is ignoring the blatantly obvious.

Yes the most likely explanation is usually the correct one. The most likely is that when a team tampered and the player participated in frequent and in depth discussions, and that player makes uncharacteristic negative comments toward his team, his play declines, he forced their hand to give him more money, no more years and forfeit their tag rights, the most likely explanation is it worked.
Miami interfered in the team/player relationship. The player encouraged, supported and facilitated it. The relationship deteriorated. Pretty obvious unless you have a narrative you want to support.

I have no narrative. I have never been negative toward Brady. I don’t think this issue diminishes what he did here. I accepted his poor okay at the end of 2019. I STILL say him leaving was ultimately best for the franchise. But, this is something that happened, and he absolutely participated in it, and there is no doubt it worked. Miami sold him on bailing out if New England even if they didn’t sell him on coming to Miami. Those things are not mutually exclusive. That is one of the biggest flaws in your argument.

 

[PatsWSB47]

The wedge was already there I think. If it wasn't then Brady likely wouldn't have responded to Miami the way he did.

 

[Bill Lee]

I'd never thought I'd see the day where Patriots fans use the NFL investigators of all people(see Spygaye)as undeniable proof to push their anti-Brady narrative. Fun times

Well, we can lean in to that blanket denial Brady's amazingly responsive social media team released to address such scurrilous charges.

Oh, wait...

Seems he doesn't want to draw attention to himself vacationing with the wife and kids while his teammates are at work, so he's just staying quiet about it.

 

[Kontradiction]

facts & logic on your side? Um no. We know what happened "numerous and detailed" i believe was part of the description. More intellectually dishonest statements from you does not make it otherwise, in as much as you might wish it were so. Your argument is based on the willful misinterpretation of known facts.

Known facts, in order of relevance…

1. Brady didn’t sign with Miami.

2. Brady signed with Tampa.

3. The team did not make an additional offer to Brady at the end of 2019.

4. It takes one to tamper.

5. The team, to date, has not requested compensation for the tampering nor have they requested it because they consider d Brady’s conduct detrimental.

6. The transcripts are not available for public consumption.

7. Conversations or texts can be numerous and detailed without a response from the other party.

Tell me… which facts am I “willfully misrepresenting?”

Not the same investigators, though, were they?
Mary Jo White was in investigator of Tampergate.
Ted Wells... is not Mary Jo White

Different people, different firms, different scenarios...

All working for, or on behalf of, the same NFL leadership.

Sure is proof.

What?

Doesn't make me feel better or worse. Its a simple statement of fact.

Who is willfully misrepresenting the facts now?

By claiming that I am working backwards from a predetermined conclusion.

You are. You’ve made that more than clear over the last two years, and in this thread, that you’re not willing to be logically consistent and you’re not willing to be unbiased. That’s part of the reason why you’re obviously getting more and more agitated with each response.

In this case, there were two parties who were repeatedly involved in this, Brady and the Dolphins. Their dalliance lasted the course of two teams, and one that ultimately lead to the fake retirement of Brady, trying to get out of Tampa...

No proof of this whatsoever. You’re basing this belief on how you feel instead of fact… particularly the last part.

I am. And his conduct did have a negative impact on the franchise.

It did? What was the door negative impact? You already said in the Ross thread that you don’t believe it impacted his play. We already know that there was no new offer after 2019 by the Patriots. So what is the negative impact? That he’s no longer here? Blame the team. They had numerous chances to lock him up and chose not to.

It also had a negative impact on their negotiations with him because it put him in a superior negotiating position.

What negotiations? There was no new offer.

And, again, it is irrelevant that Brady didn't sign with Miami.

It’s pretty much the most relevant detail. You just don’t want it to be because you’re arguing off of emotion, and that point blows your entire argument up. It’s a point you’ve tried to use to your own advantage by saying that, if he plays next year, it’s in Miami because of the tampering. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

If he plays, hes going to end up in Miami next year.

The only thing that is relevant is that he had multiple and detailed discussions with another team while under contract with the New England Patriots, who held his exclusive negotiating rights in 2019.


The 2 year 53 million dollar offer isn't something I made up. Standing offer. He didn't bother to call NE afterwards, which is a different matter in and of itself. That was his right at that time because he was a free agent.

It was a standing offer he turned down prior to the 2019 season. Prior to the tampering. Your argument was that it hurt negotiations. There were no new negotiations. There was only the old offer that he turned down.

Of course they have basis. They are firmly rooted in the discipline the league passed down to Miami. Brady was a **** for dealing with the dolphins.

There is no proof whatsoever that he dealt with the Dolphins or discussed signing there. One would think that, if there was a detailed convo going both ways, he’d be in Miami instead of Tampa right now.

and YAAASSSSSSS, you are sooooo right, that I even took the time in 2019 to make this... one pic from every year he was in New England because I wanted him gone before he even left...

In Celebration Of Tom Brady, Bill Belichick & The New England Patriots

So I keep reading that Brady is: depressed pissed off not happy ready to leave throwing the team under the bus blah, blah, blah I don't see it. I see a QB who wants his side of the ball to get better. He is unhappy that the offense is not contributing at a normal level. He expects more out...

www.patriotsplanet.net

Don’t get mad at me. I just reposted your words. You even said you weren’t rooting for him anymore before he even left. That gives your readers more than enough to know that you’re not interested in viewing this from an unbiased perspective.

 

[crawhammer]

The idea that Brady sabotaged or checked out on any season is preposterous. There are far more plausible explanations for why the 2019 season went down the drain... you know the ones that everyone agreed upon before this tampering story came out.

Look at last season while Brady was in Tampa Bay, being tampered with by Miami again, deliberating his future... week 15 was a complete debacle with the injuries and they got embarrassed by the Saints. You could see how dejected Brady was and it only got worse after AB quit in the middle of a game. However, after the Saints loss they won 4 in a row while averaging 33 points per game and then their season only ended after wiping out a 24-point deficit against the eventual Super Bowl champion.

It's apparent Brady had taken the second wave of conversations with Miami more seriously than the first yet there was no deterioration in his play like there was in 2019 when he was dealing with mounting injuries. That 2019 team wasn't that talented on offense... their second leading WR was Phillip Dorsett with 29 receptions. Defensively they got exposed by the end of the season and the head coach checked out on the week 17 game vs Miami. 3 of their 5 losses on the season were to teams that were simply better. It wasn't a season that went sour for the team because Brady had conversations with Miami (that only he knew about). The original narrative was the correct one... injuries, tougher opponents, and an overrated roster (with the 8-0 start) that got exposed. As a team they're also trending very poorly late in seasons for three years running.

 

[crawhammer]

"Brady has no honor"... ************ what a gigantic overreaction. Are we ripping down the 6 Super Bowl banners?

 

[Ring 6]

The wedge was already there I think. If it wasn't then Brady likely wouldn't have responded to Miami the way he did.

Could be, but Brady changed exactly when the tampering conspiracy started.
I’m not saying Miami convinced him to give up and not care, I’m saying they werent tampering for no reason. Offering him ownership while at the same time he is complaining about being appreciated surely can serve to drive the wedge deeper if it’s already there.

 

[Ring 6]

"Brady has no honor"... ************ what a gigantic overreaction. Are we ripping down the 6 Super Bowl banners?

While that’s a stupid statement, those banners are not a symbol of honor either.

 

[Pape]

Known facts, in order of relevance…

1. Brady didn’t sign with Miami.

2. Brady signed with Tampa.

3. The team did not make an additional offer to Brady at the end of 2019.

4. It takes one to tamper.

5. The team, to date, has not requested compensation for the tampering nor have they requested it because they consider d Brady’s conduct detrimental.

6. The transcripts are not available for public consumption.

7. Conversations or texts can be numerous and detailed without a response from the other party.

Tell me… which facts am I “willfully misrepresenting?”

Relevance in this issue is simple -
Did the Miami Dolphins tamper with Tom Brady? Yes.
Did they have repeated conversations over the course of 2019, when he was under exclusive contract with the Patriots? Yes.
Did Tom Brady know at that point the Patriots held his exclusive negotiating rights? Yes.

Tamper Brady not signing in Miami has zero relevance. The end result does not matter. What matters is the repeated contacts between the two.

So what are you willfully misrepresenting?
Point 1
Point 3 (you finally rephrased it, so I will let it pass)
Point 4 (It takes 1 to tamper but it takes two to have multiple & detailed conversations)
Point 7 - complete and utter BS. A conversation is not a one way street.

All working for, or on behalf of, the same NFL leadership.

So? The point stands. Mary Jo White is not Ted Wells.

What?

what what?

Who is willfully misrepresenting the facts now?

Are we dealing with facts or my feelings here? Please elucidate. Because as far as I am aware, it did not make me feel any better (or worse) when I posted.

You are. You’ve made that more than clear over the last two years, and in this thread, that you’re not willing to be logically consistent and you’re not willing to be unbiased. That’s part of the reason why you’re obviously getting more and more agitated with each response.








No proof of this whatsoever. You’re basing this belief on how you feel instead of fact… particularly the last part.

Pretty much how I see it, based on the known facts.
Do I think it was a **** move by Brady to have ongoing negotiations with a division rival? Sure do.
Do I think it was a **** move by the Patriots tampering with BB, if indeed that was the case? Sure don't.

One benefits my team, the other doesn't.

It did? What was the door negative impact? You already said in the Ross thread that you don’t believe it impacted his play. We already know that there was no new offer after 2019 by the Patriots. So what is the negative impact? That he’s no longer here? Blame the team. They had numerous chances to lock him up and chose not to.

So what was the negative impact? I see the negative impact in Bradys unwillingness to negotiate at all with the team after the 2 year/53 million dollar contract offer was made. By that point he already knew that other teams were interested in a 43 year old quarterback coming off a down year.... Once you know something like that, it works to your advantage. If it works to Bradys advantage, then it become a disadvantage to the Patriots. Even if its just 1% of his decision making process, its enough.

What negotiations? There was no new offer.

No negotiations because he already knew he had at least one landing spot... And a prudent person would ask - If he did this with Miami, did he do it with other teams?

It’s pretty much the most relevant detail. You just don’t want it to be because you’re arguing off of emotion, and that point blows your entire argument up. It’s a point you’ve tried to use to your own advantage by saying that, if he plays next year, it’s in Miami because of the tampering. You can’t have your cake and eat it, too.

Nope, no emotion.
But your defense of Brady shows that you get quite emotional over any criticism leveled at him.

And again, the destination becomes irrelevant. Its the act in and of itself which is the important aspect.

It was a standing offer he turned down prior to the 2019 season. Prior to the tampering. Your argument was that it hurt negotiations. There were no new negotiations. There was only the old offer that he turned down.

It was an offer made in the 2019 preseason. But there was no reply. Strange how that coincided with the tampering conversations with Miami, isn't it?

There is no proof whatsoever that he dealt with the Dolphins or discussed signing there. One would think that, if there was a detailed convo going both ways, he’d be in Miami instead of Tampa right now.

lol. did you type that with a straight face?

Don’t get mad at me. I just reposted your words. You even said you weren’t rooting for him anymore before he even left. That gives your readers more than enough to know that you’re not interested in viewing this from an unbiased perspective.

I said I wasn't rooting for him before he left? Huh. News to me. Oh well - why don't you go dig thru some more of my posting history see if you can find that, maybe try to use it against me? If you do great; regardless of what I may or may not have said in 2019/early 2020 - just so everyone is clear - I am not rooting for him now.

So, whether or not some here think I am biased is irrelevant to me. The easily offended are free to block me if they don't like what I have to say.

 

[The Boston Patriot]

Is there any way to let this thread die? I hate the fact that the OP even gave the person who gives morons a bad rap a ton of notoriety, exactly what the imbecile wants.

 

[Kontradiction]

I don’t have proof because I am not privy to what happened, just as you don’t have proof that it didn’t. Your claim that the absence of verifiable proof only confirms your opinion is a logical fallacy.

You’re using the term logical fallacy here. I don’t think that means what you think it means. What kind of logical fallacy am I committing?

In the absence of proof, you need to make a case that withstands scrutiny on a logical level. You can’t do that because he didn’t sign with Miami nor can you tie his play in 2019 to him “giving up” while, simultaneously stating he didn’t sign in Miami because “they sucked” while simultaneously trying to sweep the injury and supporting cast under the rug. Doesn’t work like that. The facts are that he’s in Tampa, not Miami. Those facts support my argument and undermine yours, which is why you’re relegated to arguing based on conjecture, guesswork, and conspiracy theory.

The argument that the Dolphins didn’t change him doesn’t withstand scrutiny because he did act differently and you don’t know how the Dolphins communicated with him, but it’s the one thing that changed.

Sure it does. He started acting differently, based on reports, in 2017 and 2018. Well before the Dolphins contacted him in August 2019. It withstands scrutiny just fine.

You are creating beliefs and tagging them to my opinion so you can dismiss my opinion, another logical fallacy.

Specifically, which beliefs did I “create?”

Miami tampering and Brady participating

There’s no proof that Brady participated. As a matter of fact, there’s more proof that he didn’t - he plays for Tampa.

in my opinion served to drive a wedge between the Patriots and Brady.

The wedge was already there.

Miami’s intent could well have been to separate Brady from NE whether they get him or not.

Guesswork.

Miami interfering in the exclusive rights the Patriots had, by definition harm their ability to negotiate with their player.

There were no new negotiations. Both sides seemed ready to move on. If there was a new contract offer in the 2019 offseason, by all means… share it.

Brady’s comments throughout the season were different than ever before.
Thinking that a team offering him ownership at the very time he made the statement “I’m just an employee here” does not show they were successful in driving a wedge between the team and player is ignoring the blatantly obvious.

Brady, in some form or fashion, has always referred to BB. He IS just an employee.

Yes the most likely explanation is usually the correct one.

Right. That if there were serious two-way negotiations, he’d be in South Beach. That’s the simplest explanation.

The most likely is that when a team tampered and the player participated in frequent and in depth discussions, and that player makes uncharacteristic negative comments toward his team,

What negative comments? Where did he ever deride the team?

his play declines,

Explained easily by the tennis elbow and the worst supporting cast of WRs and TEs in the NFL. The same supporting cast that was completely overhauled less than 2 years later.

he forced their hand to give him more money, no more years and forfeit their tag rights, the most likely explanation is it worked.

They agreed to forfeit the tag rights before the tampering took place.

Miami interfered in the team/player relationship. The player encouraged, supported and facilitated it.

More conjecture. No proof whatsoever that the conversation was two-way, let alone that he supported and facilitated it.

The relationship deteriorated. Pretty obvious unless you have a narrative you want to support.

I don’t. I believed the reports in 2017 and 2018.

I have no narrative. I have never been negative toward Brady. I don’t think this issue diminishes what he did here. I accepted his poor okay at the end of 2019.

I don’t think you have a bias toward Brady, per se. I wouldn’t say that. I DO think that you have a bias toward to team, and that some fictional story that you’re telling yourself, that Brady’s relationship with the team soured because Miami tampered and not because of something that happened between him and the team, is an easier pill for you to swallow than admitting that both sides were ready to move on and that it’s worked out swimmingly for Brady so far.

I STILL say him leaving was ultimately best for the franchise. But, this is something that happened, and he absolutely participated in it, and there is no doubt it worked. Miami sold him on bailing out if New England even if they didn’t sell him on coming to Miami. Those things are not mutually exclusive. That is one of the biggest flaws in your argument.

There is no flaw in my argument because there is absolutely no proof that this happened. If Brady signed with Miami? Sure. But he didn’t. His “poor play,” which wasn’t really all that poor as even you admitted in the wake of that season (I could pull that post back up, if needed) was more about not having the “right guys” in place (your words) and injury. Any disillusionment with the franchise started nearly two years before Miami contacted him.

In other words? You can’t make the pieces of your argument logically fit without trending toward guesswork and conspiracy. I’ve said this since the outset.

 

[Kontradiction]

Some “multiple” and “detailed” text examples…

 

[Ring 6]

You’re using the term logical fallacy here. I don’t think that means what you think it means. What kind of logical fallacy am I committing?

In the absence of proof, you need to make a case that withstands scrutiny on a logical level. You can’t do that because he didn’t sign with Miami nor can you tie his play in 2019 to him “giving up” while, simultaneously stating he didn’t sign in Miami because “they sucked” while simultaneously trying to sweep the injury and supporting cast under the rug. Doesn’t work like that. The facts are that he’s in Tampa, not Miami. Those facts support my argument and undermine yours, which is why you’re relegated to arguing based on conjecture, guesswork, and conspiracy theory.



Sure it does. He started acting differently, based on reports, in 2017 and 2018. Well before the Dolphins contacted him in August 2019. It withstands scrutiny just fine.



Specifically, which beliefs did I “create?”



There’s no proof that Brady participated. As a matter of fact, there’s more proof that he didn’t - he plays for Tampa.



The wedge was already there.



Guesswork.



There were no new negotiations. Both sides seemed ready to move on. If there was a new contract offer in the 2019 offseason, by all means… share it.



Brady, in some form or fashion, has always referred to BB. He IS just an employee.



Right. That if there were serious two-way negotiations, he’d be in South Beach. That’s the simplest explanation.



What negative comments? Where did he ever deride the team?



Explained easily by the tennis elbow and the worst supporting cast of WRs and TEs in the NFL. The same supporting cast that was completely overhauled less than 2 years later.



They agreed to forfeit the tag rights before the tampering took place.



More conjecture. No proof whatsoever that the conversation was two-way, let alone that he supported and facilitated it.



I don’t. I believed the reports in 2017 and 2018.



I don’t think you have a bias toward Brady, per se. I wouldn’t say that. I DO think that you have a bias toward to team, and that some fictional story that you’re telling yourself, that Brady’s relationship with the team soured because Miami tampered and not because of something that happened between him and the team, is an easier pill for you to swallow than admitting that both sides were ready to move on and that it’s worked out swimmingly for Brady so far.



There is no flaw in my argument because there is absolutely no proof that this happened. If Brady signed with Miami? Sure. But he didn’t. His “poor play,” which wasn’t really all that poor as even you admitted in the wake of that season (I could pull that post back up, if needed) was more about not having the “right guys” in place (your words) and injury. Any disillusionment with the franchise started nearly two years before Miami contacted him.

In other words? You can’t make the pieces of your argument logically fit without trending toward guesswork and conspiracy. I’ve said this since the outset.

We disagree, pretty much across the board.