Dan Shaughnessy: Biggest douche bag of them all?

[Kontradiction]

This is the part of the contract in question

2. EMPLOYMENT AND SERVICES. Club employs Player as a skilled football player. Player accepts such employment. He agrees to give his best efforts and loyalty to the Club, and to conduct himself on and off the field with appropriate recognition of the fact that the success of professional football depends largely on public respect for and approval of those associated with the game. Player will report promptly for and partici- pate fully in Club’s official mandatory minicamp(s), official preseason training camp, all Club meetings and practice sessions, and all preseason, regular season and postseason football games scheduled for or by Club. If invited, Player will practice for and play in any all-star football game sponsored by the League. Player will not participate in any football game not sponsored by the League unless the game is first approved by the League.

He did. The club chose not to lock him up before the 2019 season, he exercised his right to UFA, and left for another team than the one who was talking to him.

 

[Kontradiction]

Maybe I'm looking at this too narrow but I can't get mad at flirting. These are some of the richest, most powerful, respected people in their space. They're going to have conversations and talks while under contract. Between agents, friends, former teammates/coaches. Players & coaches are going to talk to people on different teams.

Now you've brought up transcripts, those are huge. Unless Brady is throwing games or something approaching that. I can't get mad for him talking with other teams. Knowing he's not coming back and will be playing multiple years more.

I'm generally lost why some are mad about this. If this wasn't Brady it wouldn't be an issue at all. Again do people not realize how many agents run that side of the business. Very few, so it goes without saying they're talking with different players on different teams. Letting them know "so & so wants and appreciates more than your current team"

You can do your job at the highest level, unhappy and knowing things are coming to an end. All the while giving 100% effort. Committed to your teammates not the organization. Ask anyone in the military who they fight for and its country and the people beside them. Not the army or government. Some of the most loyal people walking the Earth.

I get it. There’s still hurt feelings over the divorce. People deal with that stuff in different ways, especially if a big part of one’s personality is being a Pats fan. That’s what is driving this, and that’s why it’s so easy to smack down. And I haven’t even begun to ask why Brady wouldn’t have gone there yet either since common sense should tell you that, if both parties were negotiating for a full season, Miami likely would have offered more money and more years. Don’t even need to use that one. At least not yet.

 

[Ring 6]

How do you know they were negotiating? You don’t have the transcripts.



Common sense says nothing of the sort. He didn’t sign with Miami. Your confirmation bias says that, but not common sense.



It’s not obvious in the least. He didn’t sign with Miami. Until there’s proof (either the transcripts, an NFL official confirming, Brady confirming, BB confirming, Kraft confirming, or Miami confirming… none of which have happened to date), there’s no way whatsoever your case holds water. It’s either mere guesswork or conspiracy theory fueled by confirmation bias.

What do you think they were talking about?
You don’t have transcripts either, so the obvious is an assumption of the discussion.

Brady acted different than he ever has before. Comments that “I’m just an employee” while being offered ownership does, him refusing to sign virtually an identical extension to what he signed 2 years earlier, but for 25% more, and the fact that he roped the Patriots into giving him
an extra 9 mill for the year he was under contract AND waive the right to franchise are all occurrences that say the tampering worked.
Miami may have known they couldn’t sign him, they still have incentive to tamper and taint his relationship with their division rival.

I’m not prosecuting a case. Anything you or I say at this point is completely a theory, up until we knew the exact facts which we never will. So we need to rely on common sense. I do not believe
-Miami’s investigation said the tampering was lengthy and detailed and reported to management but Brady wasn’t actively responding.
-Brady would do a 180 with his attitude, suddenly not accept the type of extension he previously was fine with, okay the worst football of his life, walk away from a 20 year, 6 ring relationship by answering “nope” when asked by Kraft if he could do anything to get him to stay, if he wasn’t being influenced by the tampering that’s been proven to have happened.
-that in order for tampering to have impacted his relationship with the Patriots, he had to go to Miami.

The purpose of a tampering rule is so that the team has an exclusive right to negotiate with the player, so that the player can’t get offers from other teams in order to use in his negotiation with his current team. The tampering team and the player both benefit from this. The current team suffers a loss of their rights. If the player engages in this action he is harming his current team, helping to violate their rights. Sure it’s for his own gain, but that is one of the reasons it is not allowed.

 

[Ring 6]

He did. The club chose not to lock him up before the 2019 season, he exercised his right to UFA, and left for another team than the one who was talking to him.

No. During the summer of 2019 when he was negotiating with the Patriots in an extension, and during the 2019 season, and list season he conspired with a competitor to violate the tampering rules thereby harming the team his contract call for his best efforts and loyalty to.

Put another way, if he helped the Dolphins steal a sponsor relationship away from the Patriots he is clearly violating the contract. In this case he helped them steal the right to exclusive negotiation.

 

[Ring 6]

I get it. There’s still hurt feelings over the divorce. People deal with that stuff in different ways, especially if a big part of one’s personality is being a Pats fan. That’s what is driving this, and that’s why it’s so easy to smack down. And I haven’t even begun to ask why Brady wouldn’t have gone there yet either since common sense should tell you that, if both parties were negotiating for a full season, Miami likely would have offered more money and more years. Don’t even need to use that one. At least not yet.

I have no hurt feelings. I love Brady. He could have walked out on the field in 2019 taken a dump on the 50 yard line and peed F the patriots in the snow and walked away, and he still was a net far greater source of my happiness as a fan than the next highest guys combined.
I’m just discussing the topic honestly.

It doesn’t matter if he went to Miami or not. He probably didn’t go because they sucked, but even has he stayed, what he did was wrong.
Again it seems obvious that tampering damaged the relationship and helped it break. What happens afterward isn’t really relevant.

 

[Ring 6]

Maybe I'm looking at this too narrow but I can't get mad at flirting. These are some of the richest, most powerful, respected people in their space. They're going to have conversations and talks while under contract. Between agents, friends, former teammates/coaches. Players & coaches are going to talk to people on different teams.

Now you've brought up transcripts, those are huge. Unless Brady is throwing games or something approaching that. I can't get mad for him talking with other teams. Knowing he's not coming back and will be playing multiple years more.

I'm generally lost why some are mad about this. If this wasn't Brady it wouldn't be an issue at all. Again do people not realize how many agents run that side of the business. Very few, so it goes without saying they're talking with different players on different teams. Letting them know "so & so wants and appreciates more than your current team"

You can do your job at the highest level, unhappy and knowing things are coming to an end. All the while giving 100% effort. Committed to your teammates not the organization. Ask anyone in the military who they fight for and its country and the people beside them. Not the army or government. Some of the most loyal people walking the Earth.

Speaking for myself, my problems with it are:
-the tampering happened while the patriots were negotiating a contract.
-that negotiation resulted in Brady rejected a pretty identical deal to what he accepted 2 years before (with a 25% increase) and instead somehow forcing the patriots to increase his pay for the one year remaining by 9 mill, forfeiting their tag rights, and getting absolutely nothing in return (other than ostensibly avoiding a holdout or something like that)
-Brady was different than ever before.
-Commenting “don’t ask me I’m an employee” while being courted and offered ownership is pretty damning
-sitting out more practices than ever
-saying I am the most miserable 8-0 QB when his defense allowed a historic 61 points in those games and he needed to score no more than 15 to win each one
-numerous times when he uncharacteristically gave up on plays (the falling away from a not so close rusher and heaving the ball away)
-playing the worst football of his life over the last half of that season.

These are all issues that affected that season, and the future, that are strikingly consistent with how a tampering competitor could turn a player against his own team, and demoralize him from wanting to be there.

If Brady from 2000 to 2018 is a 100, and the next greatest is a 50, these issues make him a 99.95 to me. But they happened and it is troubling.

 

[Pape]

Aside from being merely a bad example, you’re also trending toward a post hoc, ergo propter hoc there. Just because you smell smoke doesn’t mean the building is on fire.



Actually, my argument was always that it was more aimed toward teams than players. Hence my response to @RobertWeathers earlier in the thread. I was merely trying to give you a life raft. But since we agree that Brady can’t be held liable for tampering, let’s move on to your more recent charge of “conduct detrimental.” Here is NFL’s personal conduct policy: https://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2017/08/11/0ap3000000828506.pdf

I’m guessing that you think Brady violated this bullet…



Now, since we’ve agreed that Brady is innocent of tampering, let’s get to the bottom of the “conduct detrimental” charge. I challenge you to prove that bullet point when:

1) You don’t have access to the transcripts, and, therefore, aren’t privy to the level of response on Brady’s end and whether the conversations were more about ownership in the future, joining the team, or both.

2) Brady reported, played every game, took the team to the playoffs, and helped guide them to an 8-0 start.

3) Brady didn’t end up signing with Miami.

4) There was no new offer from the Patriots in the 2019 offseason.

As a matter of fact, Miami can challenge the NFL’s ruling based on this section of the tampering rules…





You tell me. They’ve suspended many a player for conduct detrimental before. The most recent, just off the top of my head, was Michael Bennett. But then, I’m not the one making the charge of conduct detrimental. You are.



From the article…

If anyone got this ball rolling, it’s Belichick, and he did it with a reported offer he made to Brady last summer that he never changed. Belichick drew his line at last summer’s offer and that was it.

The supposed offer was the year before. Also…

Apparently the Patriots offered to commit to Brady for more than one year – or at least they made it look that way. It’s more likely that Belichick’s final offer was a glorified one-year deal set up for a subsequent restructure or change of direction. So Brady gave himself the freedom to go elsewhere if he wanted, and he’s actually bitten the bullet and done it.

Lots of key words in there. “Apparently,” “more likely.” In essence, it was the same as year-to-year deals that they had offered Brady in 2017 and 2018. 2 year deal on the surface, but essentially a one year deal.

Meanwhile, you have guys like Reiss (the guy most connected to the Patriots), Schefter (the guy most connected to the NFL), and Rapaport (the guy who is the second-most connected to the NFL) all saying there was no new offer. The new offer didn’t exist. There was no further negotiations. Both sides were ready to move on. There was no conduct detrimental. Your contention is dead on arrival.



Thanks. This is essentially an admission that you have no idea what those conversations entailed. So, you’re basically just arguing on how you feel in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Nothing wrong with that. Just call a spade a spade.



Yet you’re struggling mightily to make a case for it even when being provided help by your opponent in doing so.



Got ya. I can see why you would think that was an attempt to throw something in your face if you’re still reading posts through angry eyes. It wasn’t. It was just regular banter/ball-busting. I have a daughter who is a year and a half and a wife who is due to give birth to our second any day now. I don’t have the time to take anything personally on here anymore.



The tampering and conduct detrimental rules state that it’s plenty relevant. Logic states that it’s plenty relevant. You just want to pretend that it isn’t. Why? Because, like I said at the outset, you have no interest in being rational about this. That’s been on display throughout…

You are drawing the wrong inference of brady being "innocent of tampering". Thats like saying OJ was innocent of murder. Takes two to tamper, and he was a willing participant. The only thing is Brady wont be punished for it. Those are two completely separate things.

And the illustrative point of a dog doing some thing smelly inside is indeed apropos ... it is not post hoc, ergo propter hoc because the dog did indeed **** in the house. Thats why i didnt use the adage when theres smoke there fire, because thats not always true. We know that Brady did indeed have dealings with the fins over the course of the 2019 season, which was a **** move.

The pertinent section of the contract you are looking for is:


That pretty much says it all. Unless you consider contract negotiations with a division rival a show of loyalty...

But please defend him more. Its amusing to see how far people will go to not find fault with their heroes.

 

[Steve102]

 

[PatsWSB47]

I think it's evident that for the most part people that aren't condemning Brady now are the same ones that continued and continue to root for him when he went Tampa. It's also evident that for the most part the people most upset now are the ones that have been critical of Brady since he went to Tampa.

 

[XLIX]

Maybe I'm looking at this too narrow but I can't get mad at flirting. These are some of the richest, most powerful, respected people in their space. They're going to have conversations and talks while under contract. Between agents, friends, former teammates/coaches. Players & coaches are going to talk to people on different teams.

I think that is something so many fans don't realize. Team A's fans hate Team B. Team B's fans hate Team A. We all expect the players and coaches to echo those sentiments but, in the real world, it often turns out there are a lot of really close friendships between the 2 teams. Maybe they played together in college or previously played together in the pros..... or there is a coach/mentor who ended up on the other team.... stuff like that happens constantly.

 

[Ring 6]

I think it's evident that for the most part people that aren't condemning Brady now are the same ones that continued and continue to root for him when he went Tampa. It's also evident that for the most part the people most upset now are the ones that have been critical of Brady since he went to Tampa.

I have not been critical of Brady at all until this issue came out.
I’m still not critical if Brady but I’m critical of his 2019 actions.

 

[PatsWSB47]

I have not been critical of Brady at all until this issue came out.
I’m still not critical if Brady but I’m critical of his 2019 actions.

Well I didn't say universally, but the most vocal posters are following their "party lines".

 

[Ring 6]

Well I didn't say universally, but the most vocal posters are following there "party lines".

I know, just saying.

 

[Since1960]

Answer to the original question is “YES”..

 

[Ring 6]

You say the same thing happened, but theres never been a reaction or talk about to this extent...Ever. Especially as far as terminology changes and simplification. Let alone outright saying new offensive scheme.

You seem to be missing my point, and asking an irrelevant question. I did notice how you no longer are talking about Howes article and how you used 1 piece as fact while also saying you dont believe in stories.

So we have our first actual data and the offense last night looked much more similar to last years than 2021 did to 2020 and than 2029 did to 2019.
So despite “people talking” it would appear the football they will be playing is the same as every other year, changes are made within the framework of the offense to varying degrees, this year to a lesser degree than the previous 2.

 

[crawhammer]

-the tampering happened while the patriots were negotiating a contract.

You have confirmation the tampering started before Brady signed his last contract with the Patriots?

-that negotiation resulted in Brady rejected a pretty identical deal to what he accepted 2 years before (with a 25% increase) and instead somehow forcing the patriots to increase his pay for the one year remaining by 9 mill, forfeiting their tag rights, and getting absolutely nothing in return (other than ostensibly avoiding a holdout or something like that)

Same question as above... where's the confirmation for what you're seemingly stating as fact?... this supposed fantastic contract offer from the team. Regarding the details of his actual contract for 2019 season, the Patriots didn't have to agree with anything, they chose to.

-Brady was different than ever before.

There aren't any solid examples for this. Brady's always been a perfectionist so any time he or team aren't performing up to his expectations he gets pissed off. Regarding his effort level, he consistently gives 100%. More than could be said for Bill against Miami in week 17 of 2019... you have an excuse for not calling any timeouts at the end of that first half?

-Commenting “don’t ask me I’m an employee” while being courted and offered ownership is pretty damning

Again, where are you getting the details of your timeline? You really think Brady said that because he had the balls from some conversation with Miami?

You're not making any sense. Brady was playing quarterback for New England in 2019 no matter what. Under no circumstances would Brady scrap any portion of a season that's going on his résumé... he's got too much self-respect and pride. Also at that point in his career he was still chasing all-time quarterbacking stats which is important to any all-time great (no matter how humble they portray themselves publicly).

You want to get on Brady's performance in 2019 then fine but he was playing through injuries and the roster around him was deteriorating. The defense and coaching went south too... you can't put either on Brady.

Finally, you're glossing over the fact that he didn't sign a contract with Miami and he went in a totally different direction. You're taking his conversations with Miami more seriously than he did.

 

[patman52]

I must have read a different article... didnt see half the stuff in the article that has been claimed in this thread

the gist? he called Brady an a-hole for the two-faced dealings with the dolphins in 2019...

CHB was right, this time. Brady was an ass hole for doing that.

In case anyone is interested, here it is...

As long as tomasi breathes he has it locked up.

 

[1960Pats]

Maybe I'm looking at this too narrow but I can't get mad at flirting. These are some of the richest, most powerful, respected people in their space. They're going to have conversations and talks while under contract. Between agents, friends, former teammates/coaches. Players & coaches are going to talk to people on different teams.

Now you've brought up transcripts, those are huge. Unless Brady is throwing games or something approaching that. I can't get mad for him talking with other teams. Knowing he's not coming back and will be playing multiple years more.

I'm generally lost why some are mad about this. If this wasn't Brady it wouldn't be an issue at all. Again do people not realize how many agents run that side of the business. Very few, so it goes without saying they're talking with different players on different teams. Letting them know "so & so wants and appreciates more than your current team"

You can do your job at the highest level, unhappy and knowing things are coming to an end. All the while giving 100% effort. Committed to your teammates not the organization. Ask anyone in the military who they fight for and its country and the people beside them. Not the army or government. Some of the most loyal people walking the Earth.

Well said and spot on.

I had a co-worker, Steve, who had played in the NFL for 8 seasons and we used to talk about his life in football. He was impressed by the togetherness of the locker room most of all.

Then there's Rob, a kid that I coached in LL. He went on to join the Marines years later and I ran into him at a mall during Christmas. When I said that he must be happy to be home with the family he said yes, but he couldn't wait to get back with his buddies in Iraq.

 

[1960Pats]

He did. The club chose not to lock him up before the 2019 season, he exercised his right to UFA, and left for another team than the one who was talking to him.

What I don't get is why weren't the Pats prepared for Brady's departure.

 

[Kontradiction]

What do you think they were talking about?
You don’t have transcripts either, so the obvious is an assumption of the discussion.

Occam’s Razor (common sense, in your words) will tell you that it was most likely not a serious two-way discussion about signing there. If it was, Brady would be there and not Tampa. Miami had a full year’s head start with over $100M in cap space to work with.

Brady acted different than he ever has before. Comments that “I’m just an employee” while being offered ownership does, him refusing to sign virtually an identical extension to what he signed 2 years earlier, but for 25% more, and the fact that he roped the Patriots into giving him
an extra 9 mill for the year he was under contract AND waive the right to franchise are all occurrences that say the tampering worked.

Post hoc, ergo propter hoc fallacy. There were reports of a dissolving relationship between BB, Brady, Guerrero, and Gronk as far back as the middle of the 2017 season. You’re trying to fit a square peg into a round hole because you’re working backwards to try and support a faulty conclusion that you’ve already arrived at without evidence to back up your claims.

As for playing the worst football of his career because of the tampering? That’s an interesting claim. So, suddenly, the player with the greatest work ethic and will to win as well as the biggest chip on his shoulder mailed it in, and that’s that? The funny thing is, you didn’t seem to come to that conclusion until after he departed. In 2019 and early 2020, you were singing a very different tune…

As much as I absolutely hate to say it, Brady has not been playing well this year.

Brady is fine. It’s the O-line that has turned him into a contestant for “Dancing with the Stars”. Anybody that has played QB knows how distracting it is to think about someone in your face which forces you to take your off of your receivers. Bad O-line play doesn’t allow plays to develop which...

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NFL Rumors: Tom Brady Won’t Take Hometown Discount To Stay With Patriots

Hmmmm,,,,,, this is getting interesting. NFL Rumors: Tom Brady Won’t Take Hometown Discount To Stay With Patriots

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And the final one, a very tacit admission that he didn’t have the right players in 2019, and that he (and you) trusted BB to get the “right players” in here in 2020…

Where does Brady play in 2020?

Brady is going to Miami... - Big Salary Cap Available. 120-150M 3 year contract G. - Brady leaves - mentions Montana didn't finish in SF. - Flores - TB12 transforms locker room & Miami - Stays in AFC East - Plays NE & Belichick 2x/yr... The Challenge.. - Brady going against Steve Belichick's...

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This stance that he “played the worst football of his career” and that it was because of the tampering is a new development, and we both know why that is. It’s because he’s not here anymore. It couldn’t have been that he didn’t have the “right players” around him (in that case - the worst WR and TE position grouping in the league that year) on top of the fact that the OL was a “sieve” (your words that season which I can also reference if you’d like) on top of Brady having tennis elbow, am I right?

Miami may have known they couldn’t sign him, they still have incentive to tamper and taint his relationship with their division rival.

Their division rival did a good enough job of that all on their own.

I’m not prosecuting a case. Anything you or I say at this point is completely a theory, up until we knew the exact facts which we never will. So we need to rely on common sense. I do not believe
-Miami’s investigation said the tampering was lengthy and detailed and reported to management but Brady wasn’t actively responding.
-Brady would do a 180 with his attitude, suddenly not accept the type of extension he previously was fine with, okay the worst football of his life, walk away from a 20 year, 6 ring relationship by answering “nope” when asked by Kraft if he could do anything to get him to stay, if he wasn’t being influenced by the tampering that’s been proven to have happened.
-that in order for tampering to have impacted his relationship with the Patriots, he had to go to Miami.

You’re not in a court of law. You’re in a debate. And when you’re in a debate and you make a claim, the onus is on you to either prove that claim by supplying information to back it, or to make the claim logically connect without having to lean on a host of logical fallacies. Here are the facts:

1. Miami tampered and had $100M+ in cap space to spend. Logically, one would think they would offer the years and money he was looking for if they were seriously discussing a deal. But the deal never happened and Brady went to Tampa.

2. Brady made it clear he wanted to play until 45. The team had multiple chances after 2016, 2017, and 2018 to make that happen. They didn’t and, instead, opted for two-year deals that were really just year to year.

3. The rift between Brady, BB, and Guerrero was being reported in 2017 - well before the tampering began in August of 2019.

The purpose of a tampering rule is so that the team has an exclusive right to negotiate with the player, so that the player can’t get offers from other teams in order to use in his negotiation with his current team. The tampering team and the player both benefit from this. The current team suffers a loss of their rights. If the player engages in this action he is harming his current team, helping to violate their rights. Sure it’s for his own gain, but that is one of the reasons it is not allowed.

You’re moving the goal posts now. If that’s the case, then why haven’t the Patriots pushed for compensation? How do you know that Brady didn’t inform the team of this as it was happening? Can you tell me the level of detail the discussion had without guesswork or conspiracy theory? Of course not. Because the results disprove everything you assert here unless/until the transcripts are released. In other words, the results don’t align with your claims.

No. During the summer of 2019 when he was negotiating with the Patriots in an extension, and during the 2019 season, and list season he conspired with a competitor to violate the tampering rules thereby harming the team his contract call for his best efforts and loyalty to.

Then why isn’t the team lobbying for compensation if the harm was that bad?

I’m just discussing the topic honestly.

Not really. You’re dropping logical fallacies because you’ve convinced yourself that the tampering harmed the team and is the real reason he left. You’ve made a conclusion and you’re working backwards to prove it (confirmation bias) when all available information easily dispels your claims.

You want people to believe that a team in Florida (where he wanted to play) that had $100M to play with and a 1-year head start in negotiations went into such detail with Brady that it derailed his 2019 season, forced him to leave, and then he DIDN’T end up there? That does not logically add up in any way, shape, or form.

It doesn’t matter if he went to Miami or not.

It’s the only thing that matters if you believe there was a two-way discussion about a contract taking place.

He probably didn’t go because they sucked, but even has he stayed, what he did was wrong.

More guesswork. Right back to my original point that these claims cannot be proven without guessing or conspiracy theory. They had $100M in cap space to play with and had a boatload of draft picks in the next couple of drafts. They were a very attractive destination… especially if his relationship deteriorated with the team to the point that you say it did. It would mean that he could play the Patriots twice a year.

Again it seems obvious that tampering damaged the relationship and helped it break. What happens afterward isn’t really relevant.

Doesn’t seem obvious at all.