Dan Shaughnessy: Biggest douche bag of them all?

[Pape]

Because you can’t. Because there’s no proof whatsoever that his conduct was detrimental.

I didn't need to see it to know when my dog took a dump inside either

Sure they can. It’s specifically stated right in the same rules you’ve been pointing to throughout this thread. Section 3, subsection B.

Its a policy aimed at the Teams, which outlines what teams can and cannot do. Its not a player specific policy. But keep posting it, as its funny because it doesn't support your argument.

Why not? After all, his conduct was detrimental to the team, was it not?

because why suspend a player you want to keep... makes your job harder in the long run?

The entire world knew he was going to be a free agent after the team neglected to sign him to a long-term deal following the 2017 and 2018 seasons.

and that eliminates the Patriots exclusive negotiating period exactly how? Be specific.

The Patriots didn’t put a contract offer out there.

Report: Patriots never extended a contract offer to Tom Brady in free agency

We're starting to get a clearer picture of how Brady's departure from New England went down.

www.masslive.com

Patriots reportedly offered Tom Brady two years at $25 million per season

Bill Belichick made one final offer to Tom Brady last summer. The overall numbers in the offer from the Patriots head coach may surprise you.

985thesportshub.com

Post the transcripts, please.

Of the actual conversations? lol. best I can do...

" 1. The Dolphins had impermissible communications with quarterback Tom
Brady in 2019-20, while he was under contract to the New England Patriots.
Those communications began as early as August 2019 and continued
throughout the 2019 season and post-season. These numerous and detailed
discussions were conducted by Mr. Beal, who in turn kept Mr. Ross and other
Dolphins executives informed of his discussions with Mr. Brady."

https://nflcommunications.com/Documents/08%2002%2022%20-%20Dolphins.pdf

If the NFL releases the actual report, I will post them, if they are there.

They could have used the section and subsection to suspend or fine Brady quite easily if they felt that his level of involvement was egregious. They suspended him because they ignored the Ideal Gas Law, after all. They didn’t. As a matter of fact, they specifically said: "The investigators found tampering violations of unprecedented scope and severity," Goodell said. "I know of no prior instance of a team violating the prohibition on tampering with both a head coach and star player, to the potential detriment of multiple other clubs, over a period of several years. Similarly, I know of no prior instance in which ownership was so directly involved in the violations."
Notice how there is nothing in there about either Brady or Payton?

Transcripts?

As indicated earlier - The policy refers to Team behavior, not player behavior. As for your implied justification based on the "integrity of the game" argument - I cannot speak for others - I have not claimed that. So, apples meet oranges. Your assertion is incorrect on its face due to your wilful misinterpretation of the rules at play here.

1. It was in August 2019 - 3 years ago.

4 calendar years, three full season, quibble away.

2. You’re contradicting yourself here. Earlier in your post, you specifically said “it wasn’t in the team’s best interest” to act on that info - suspend him, file tampering charges, etc.

No. There is a distinction, not a contradiction.
Its beneficial to file tampering charges against Miami. Hurts them helps us.
Its not beneficial to suspend a player you want to keep because it makes your job harder.

3. You still have not established how any of this contact was detrimental to the Patriots, outside of a supposed contract that they offered Brady which is very much in dispute.

Its basic common sense.

Not sure what the intended effect was supposed to be.

That you remembered it and tried to throw it in my face presents a clear Kontradiction to that statement.

 

[Pape]

It is extremely relevant to what you are crying about. When I posted that BB spoke with other teams years ago, you didnt care because nothing came of it. Nothing came of Brady speaking with Miami either. So what are you upset about?

No, its not. It is irrelevant.

It was clearly established by the league investigation that brady had "numerous and detailed discussions" with the dolphins.

Its a **** move by Brady.

And upset? Aww, lol, I'm not upset. I'm having fun watching y'all getting your panties twisted in a bunch, bending over backwards trying to defend an ass hole move by 12

 

[Triumph]

Which part of the rule?

https://nflcommunications.com/Documents/2018%20Policies/7-2018%20Anti-Tampering%20Policy-Clean%20Version.pdf

I will need to review browsing history to find what I have read.

Question for you.

Does the NFL have a legal tampering period where players with current contracts are allowed to confer with other teams. The player has permission from the team that controls his right

 

[All3Phases]

No, its not. It is irrelevant.

It was clearly established by the league investigation that beady had "numerous and detailed discussions" with the dolphins.

Its a **** move by Brady.

And it wasnt a **** move by BB, because....he didnt go those teams he talked to. Same thing as Brady

 

[Pape]

And it wasnt a **** move by BB, because....he didnt go those teams he talked to. Same thing as Brady

lol, wut?

 

[All3Phases]

lol, wut?

You said BB doing the same thing was ok because he didnt go to one of those teams, Brady didnt go to Miami. You said that was irrelevant. They did the same thing

 

[Pape]

You said BB doing the same thing was ok because he didnt go to one of those teams, Brady didnt go to Miami. You said that was irrelevant. They did the same thing

unsubstantiated rumors ? confirmed conversations

They are two completely different things my friend.

 

[All3Phases]

unsubstantiated rumors ? confirmed conversations

They are two completely different things my friend.

As my friend likes to say, "I dont need to see it to know when my dog took a dump inside either"

 

[Pape]

As my friend likes to say, "I dont need to see it to know when my dog took a dump inside either"

LMAO




that is very much substantiated when it happens... lol, but wicked funny, well done

 

[Ring 6]

If the transcript is not available, then how is any of that “clear?” Moreover, how is it clear that Brady was not acting in the best interest of the team?



So which rule did he violate, and how do you intend to prove that he violated it beyond a reasonable doubt if you cannot produce any of the three items I asked you for?



People can text, email, or call someone who is stonewalling them. Happens all the time. Now, produce some evidence outside of guesswork or conspiracy that Brady was actually engaged with Miami. At this point, I’ll even accept a quote from an NFL official.

How would you assume that negotiation with a division rival is acting in the best interest of his own team?

I am not a court of law and I do not have access to the details in order to “prove beyond the shadow of a doubt” but it exists. Common sense tells us what is likely to have transpired.

So if your point is to conduct a trial without discovery, then every accusation ever made lacks evidence. If you use common sense and look at how things went, it’s pretty obvious that Miami helped persuade Brady to shoot his way out of town and he was a willing participant.

 

[Pape]

How

Incorrect question.

Not how, but why.

And we know that answer already.

 

[Ring 6]

Incorrect question.

Not how, but why.

And we know that answer already.

Oh I think it’s just the opposite.

Why would someone assume allowing a division rival to tamper with you doesn’t hurt you team is obvious. Anyone assuming that would have to have an agenda.

How you could think that requires reasoning which really doesn’t exist

 

[crawhammer]

This is the Tampering thread repeating itself... LOL!

The 2019 team started 8-0, won 12 games and the division. The season got torpedoed by the Boogeyman coming up empty against a journeyman bum quarterback with a playoff bye on the line. That bye may have made a big difference and possibly the Boogeymen could have avoided getting steamrolled by Derrick Henry.

What's the theory here? Brady's conversations with Miami, taking place since August, suddenly became a problem for the entire team and the coaching staff in December? How about this?... maybe the schedule got tougher and for the most part they lost to better teams, Brady was dealing with injuries, the Boogeymen got exposed, and Bill should think twice about promoting family members to prominent coaching positions. It's a significant stretch to draw any connection between one player's private off-field conversations and the fortunes of an entire team, especially when you have far more plausible explanations for why the season went into the toilet (by the way just like it would in the next two seasons with different quarterbacks).

 

[Ring 6]

This is the Tampering thread repeating itself... LOL!

The 2019 team started 8-0, won 12 games and the division. The season got torpedoed by the Boogeyman coming up empty against a journeyman bum quarterback with a playoff bye on the line. That bye may have made a big difference and possibly the Boogeymen could have avoided getting steamrolled by Derrick Henry.

What's the theory here? Brady's conversations with Miami, taking place since August, suddenly became a problem for the entire team and the coaching staff in December? How about this?... maybe the schedule got tougher and for the most part they lost to better teams, Brady was dealing with injuries, the Boogeymen got exposed, and Bill should think twice about promoting family members to prominent coaching positions. It's a significant stretch to draw any connection between one player's private off-field conversations and the fortunes of an entire team, especially when you have far more plausible explanations for why the season went into the toilet (by the way just like it would in the next two seasons with different quarterbacks).

You realize they went 8-0 by allowing a grand total of 61 points in those 8 games and no more than 14 in any while registering 25 takeaways right?
That isn’t the way you prove a QB was dialed in.


In every game the patriots allowed more than 17 points, they lost.
2019 Patriots: When the defense allows 17 or less 12-0
When the defense allows more than 17 0-5.

Although technically the defense only allowed 13 vs Tennessee.

If my defense allows 17 points or less in 13 of 17 games, and I only win 12 my offense was a big problem.

 

[Pape]

Why would someone assume allowing a division rival to tamper with you doesn’t hurt you team is obvious. Anyone assuming that would have to have an agenda.

Maybe it is how you phrased it? "How would you assume something..." ? the phraseology is awkward to me...

whatever...... just trying to help

 

[Pape]

What's the theory here?

That brady is a narcissistic prick

 

[Kontradiction]

I didn't need to see it to know when my dog took a dump inside either

Aside from being merely a bad example, you’re also trending toward a post hoc, ergo propter hoc there. Just because you smell smoke doesn’t mean the building is on fire.

Its a policy aimed at the Teams, which outlines what teams can and cannot do. Its not a player specific policy. But keep posting it, as its funny because it doesn't support your argument.

Actually, my argument was always that it was more aimed toward teams than players. Hence my response to @RobertWeathers earlier in the thread. I was merely trying to give you a life raft. But since we agree that Brady can’t be held liable for tampering, let’s move on to your more recent charge of “conduct detrimental.” Here is NFL’s personal conduct policy: https://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2017/08/11/0ap3000000828506.pdf

I’m guessing that you think Brady violated this bullet…



Now, since we’ve agreed that Brady is innocent of tampering, let’s get to the bottom of the “conduct detrimental” charge. I challenge you to prove that bullet point when:

1) You don’t have access to the transcripts, and, therefore, aren’t privy to the level of response on Brady’s end and whether the conversations were more about ownership in the future, joining the team, or both.

2) Brady reported, played every game, took the team to the playoffs, and helped guide them to an 8-0 start.

3) Brady didn’t end up signing with Miami.

4) There was no new offer from the Patriots in the 2019 offseason.

As a matter of fact, Miami can challenge the NFL’s ruling based on this section of the tampering rules…

because why suspend a player you want to keep... makes your job harder in the long run?

You tell me. They’ve suspended many a player for conduct detrimental before. The most recent, just off the top of my head, was Michael Bennett. But then, I’m not the one making the charge of conduct detrimental. You are.

and that eliminates the Patriots exclusive negotiating period exactly how? Be specific.

Patriots reportedly offered Tom Brady two years at $25 million per season

Bill Belichick made one final offer to Tom Brady last summer. The overall numbers in the offer from the Patriots head coach may surprise you.

985thesportshub.com

From the article…

If anyone got this ball rolling, it’s Belichick, and he did it with a reported offer he made to Brady last summer that he never changed. Belichick drew his line at last summer’s offer and that was it.

The supposed offer was the year before. Also…

Apparently the Patriots offered to commit to Brady for more than one year – or at least they made it look that way. It’s more likely that Belichick’s final offer was a glorified one-year deal set up for a subsequent restructure or change of direction. So Brady gave himself the freedom to go elsewhere if he wanted, and he’s actually bitten the bullet and done it.

Lots of key words in there. “Apparently,” “more likely.” In essence, it was the same as year-to-year deals that they had offered Brady in 2017 and 2018. 2 year deal on the surface, but essentially a one year deal.

Meanwhile, you have guys like Reiss (the guy most connected to the Patriots), Schefter (the guy most connected to the NFL), and Rapaport (the guy who is the second-most connected to the NFL) all saying there was no new offer. The new offer didn’t exist. There was no further negotiations. Both sides were ready to move on. There was no conduct detrimental. Your contention is dead on arrival.

Of the actual conversations? lol. best I can do...

" 1. The Dolphins had impermissible communications with quarterback Tom
Brady in 2019-20, while he was under contract to the New England Patriots.
Those communications began as early as August 2019 and continued
throughout the 2019 season and post-season. These numerous and detailed
discussions were conducted by Mr. Beal, who in turn kept Mr. Ross and other
Dolphins executives informed of his discussions with Mr. Brady."

https://nflcommunications.com/Documents/08%2002%2022%20-%20Dolphins.pdf

If the NFL releases the actual report, I will post them, if they are there.

Thanks. This is essentially an admission that you have no idea what those conversations entailed. So, you’re basically just arguing on how you feel in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Nothing wrong with that. Just call a spade a spade.

Its basic common sense.

Yet you’re struggling mightily to make a case for it even when being provided help by your opponent in doing so.

That you remembered it and tried to throw it in my face presents a clear Kontradiction to that statement.

Got ya. I can see why you would think that was an attempt to throw something in your face if you’re still reading posts through angry eyes. It wasn’t. It was just regular banter/ball-busting. I have a daughter who is a year and a half and a wife who is due to give birth to our second any day now. I don’t have the time to take anything personally on here anymore.

No, its not. It is irrelevant.

It was clearly established by the league investigation that brady had "numerous and detailed discussions" with the dolphins.

Its a **** move by Brady.

And upset? Aww, lol, I'm not upset. I'm having fun watching y'all getting your panties twisted in a bunch, bending over backwards trying to defend an ass hole move by 12

The tampering and conduct detrimental rules state that it’s plenty relevant. Logic states that it’s plenty relevant. You just want to pretend that it isn’t. Why? Because, like I said at the outset, you have no interest in being rational about this. That’s been on display throughout…

That brady is a narcissistic prick

 

[Kontradiction]

How would you assume that negotiation with a division rival is acting in the best interest of his own team?

How do you know they were negotiating? You don’t have the transcripts.

I am not a court of law and I do not have access to the details in order to “prove beyond the shadow of a doubt” but it exists. Common sense tells us what is likely to have transpired.

Common sense says nothing of the sort. He didn’t sign with Miami. Your confirmation bias says that, but not common sense.

So if your point is to conduct a trial without discovery, then every accusation ever made lacks evidence. If you use common sense and look at how things went, it’s pretty obvious that Miami helped persuade Brady to shoot his way out of town and he was a willing participant.

It’s not obvious in the least. He didn’t sign with Miami. Until there’s proof (either the transcripts, an NFL official confirming, Brady confirming, BB confirming, Kraft confirming, or Miami confirming… none of which have happened to date), there’s no way whatsoever your case holds water. It’s either mere guesswork or conspiracy theory fueled by confirmation bias.

 

[Ring 6]

This is the part of the contract in question

2. EMPLOYMENT AND SERVICES. Club employs Player as a skilled football player. Player accepts such employment. He agrees to give his best efforts and loyalty to the Club, and to conduct himself on and off the field with appropriate recognition of the fact that the success of professional football depends largely on public respect for and approval of those associated with the game. Player will report promptly for and partici- pate fully in Club’s official mandatory minicamp(s), official preseason training camp, all Club meetings and practice sessions, and all preseason, regular season and postseason football games scheduled for or by Club. If invited, Player will practice for and play in any all-star football game sponsored by the League. Player will not participate in any football game not sponsored by the League unless the game is first approved by the League.

 

[BaconGrundleCandy]

Aside from being merely a bad example, you’re also trending toward a post hoc, ergo propter hoc there. Just because you smell smoke doesn’t mean the building is on fire.



Actually, my argument was always that it was more aimed toward teams than players. Hence my response to @RobertWeathers earlier in the thread. I was merely trying to give you a life raft. But since we agree that Brady can’t be held liable for tampering, let’s move on to your more recent charge of “conduct detrimental.” Here is NFL’s personal conduct policy: https://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/photo/2017/08/11/0ap3000000828506.pdf

I’m guessing that you think Brady violated this bullet…



Now, since we’ve agreed that Brady is innocent of tampering, let’s get to the bottom of the “conduct detrimental” charge. I challenge you to prove that bullet point when:

1) You don’t have access to the transcripts, and, therefore, aren’t privy to the level of response on Brady’s end and whether the conversations were more about ownership in the future, joining the team, or both.

2) Brady reported, played every game, took the team to the playoffs, and helped guide them to an 8-0 start.

3) Brady didn’t end up signing with Miami.

4) There was no new offer from the Patriots in the 2019 offseason.

As a matter of fact, Miami can challenge the NFL’s ruling based on this section of the tampering rules…





You tell me. They’ve suspended many a player for conduct detrimental before. The most recent, just off the top of my head, was Michael Bennett. But then, I’m not the one making the charge of conduct detrimental. You are.



From the article…

If anyone got this ball rolling, it’s Belichick, and he did it with a reported offer he made to Brady last summer that he never changed. Belichick drew his line at last summer’s offer and that was it.

The supposed offer was the year before. Also…

Apparently the Patriots offered to commit to Brady for more than one year – or at least they made it look that way. It’s more likely that Belichick’s final offer was a glorified one-year deal set up for a subsequent restructure or change of direction. So Brady gave himself the freedom to go elsewhere if he wanted, and he’s actually bitten the bullet and done it.

Lots of key words in there. “Apparently,” “more likely.” In essence, it was the same as year-to-year deals that they had offered Brady in 2017 and 2018. 2 year deal on the surface, but essentially a one year deal.

Meanwhile, you have guys like Reiss (the guy most connected to the Patriots), Schefter (the guy most connected to the NFL), and Rapaport (the guy who is the second-most connected to the NFL) all saying there was no new offer. The new offer didn’t exist. There was no further negotiations. Both sides were ready to move on. There was no conduct detrimental. Your contention is dead on arrival.



Thanks. This is essentially an admission that you have no idea what those conversations entailed. So, you’re basically just arguing on how you feel in the face of all evidence to the contrary. Nothing wrong with that. Just call a spade a spade.



Yet you’re struggling mightily to make a case for it even when being provided help by your opponent in doing so.



Got ya. I can see why you would think that was an attempt to throw something in your face if you’re still reading posts through angry eyes. It wasn’t. It was just regular banter/ball-busting. I have a daughter who is a year and a half and a wife who is due to give birth to our second any day now. I don’t have the time to take anything personally on here anymore.



The tampering and conduct detrimental rules state that it’s plenty relevant. Logic states that it’s plenty relevant. You just want to pretend that it isn’t. Why? Because, like I said at the outset, you have no interest in being rational about this. That’s been on display throughout…

Maybe I'm looking at this too narrow but I can't get mad at flirting. These are some of the richest, most powerful, respected people in their space. They're going to have conversations and talks while under contract. Between agents, friends, former teammates/coaches. Players & coaches are going to talk to people on different teams.

Now you've brought up transcripts, those are huge. Unless Brady is throwing games or something approaching that. I can't get mad for him talking with other teams. Knowing he's not coming back and will be playing multiple years more.

I'm generally lost why some are mad about this. If this wasn't Brady it wouldn't be an issue at all. Again do people not realize how many agents run that side of the business. Very few, so it goes without saying they're talking with different players on different teams. Letting them know "so & so wants and appreciates more than your current team"

You can do your job at the highest level, unhappy and knowing things are coming to an end. All the while giving 100% effort. Committed to your teammates not the organization. Ask anyone in the military who they fight for and its country and the people beside them. Not the army or government. Some of the most loyal people walking the Earth.