Rumor: Some Patriots Players Have Doubts About Cam Newton

[Ring 6]

The board is well aware of my preference.

Hey Brady is by far my favorite athlete of all time. But I’m a patriots fan, and ultimately what’s best for the team matters.
Now or sucks that they got to the point where they couldn’t keep it together but that’s like, and frankly it really happened in 2018 (and the process began in 2016) and they plugged enough holes in a flawed team going in the wrong direction to have a last hurrah. There simply wasn’t going to be another one, because the time had come to pay up for selling out to stay on top.

 

[Deus Irae]

I really have no idea where you’re going with any of this, so this will be my last post on this discussion.

My entire point was that a player or coach’s ability to be successful should not be diminished/altered/second guessed because the organization chose to make decisions that help the TEAM be successful. I do not hold Michael Jordan down because the Bulls decided to get players like Horace Grant, Scottie Pippen, and Bill Cartwright to help their team be more successful. It doesn’t make him any less of a player. If you’re saying it does, then you’re right: I really don’t understand it.

The same analogy applies to the Patriots. I don’t hold Brady or Belichick down because he drafted Gronkowski, traded for Moss, etc. Everything you said about Brady is true, but once again is incomplete. If you want to cherry pick, Brady’s play actually hurt the Patriots in the 2011 AFC title game, they were extremely fortunate to make the Super Bowl in spite of him. In 2007 the Pats also had a top 4 defense and the team clearly regressed as the season wore on.

Your final paragraph is ridiculous. "He didn't win and excel in every game!" is not the same as "Those are all facts too, so why don’t we knock Brady’s legacy down a few pegs because he didn’t carry the boulder up the mountain by himself.".

And what people say is tha"QBX did more/less with better/worse support". And in that context, yes, "Jordan didn't win without Pippen" remains a perfectly valid argument.

I'm not sure why you continue to act as if something so obvious is an arcane bit of insanity, but that's your problem.

 

[RobertWeathers]

Hey Brady is by far my favorite athlete of all time. But I’m a patriots fan, and ultimately what’s best for the team matters.
Now or sucks that they got to the point where they couldn’t keep it together but that’s like, and frankly it really happened in 2018 (and the process began in 2016) and they plugged enough holes in a flawed team going in the wrong direction to have a last hurrah. There simply wasn’t going to be another one, because the time had come to pay up for selling out to stay on top.

2019 was the end. Brady knew it. Bill knew it. We all knew it.

Both had excellent reasons for not wanting to still work together.

Tom knew Bill needed to rebuild and could not pay him market prices. He also wanted to maximize the years he had left in an environment that would further his brand and surround him with talent.

Bill would have been ok with Tom here but at the right price and didn't want to weigh down the cap in 2020 and 2021. Additionally with a lack of skill players on offense he knew Tom would not be maximizing his skill set and by default not justifying a big contract.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

2019 was the end. Brady knew it. Bill knew it. We all knew it.

Both had excellent reasons for not wanting to still work together.

Tom knew Bill needed to rebuild and could not pay him market prices. He also wanted to maximize the years he had left in an environment that would further his brand and surround him with talent.

Bill would have been ok with Tom here but at the right price and didn't want to weigh down the cap in 2020 and 2021. Additionally with a lack of skill players on offense he knew Tom would not be maximizing his skill set and by default not justifying a big contract.

Cutting AB was the last straw for Brady. And a couple nails in the coffin were multiple bust drafts or trades like NKeal Harry, Sanu which left the talent cupboard completely bare. Brady did the absolute best thing for him, and he had decided long ago putting his house up for sale in the 2019 season. Belichick did the best thing for the team which was take the huge dead cap hits of Brady and Gronk and others, take the pain in 2020, then regroup for 2021.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

2019 was the end. Brady knew it. Bill knew it. We all knew it.

Both had excellent reasons for not wanting to still work together.

Tom knew Bill needed to rebuild and could not pay him market prices. He also wanted to maximize the years he had left in an environment that would further his brand and surround him with talent.

Bill would have been ok with Tom here but at the right price and didn't want to weigh down the cap in 2020 and 2021. Additionally with a lack of skill players on offense he knew Tom would not be maximizing his skill set and by default not justifying a big contract.

Fair enough.

As a Patriots fan, knowing the two couldn't work together any longer, which of the two do think deserved to stay and which do you think deserved to go? Brady was a free agent and Bill was not? That's a cop-out. Another coach/GM could have been brought in long before that, or after the 2020 season, with an aggressive pro-Brady stance. Kraft could have assured Brady he would axe Bill as part of his pitch. It happens all the time in sports. All the time. People mistakenly believe that it is truly, literally, Bill Belichick's football team, in the sense that he's the owner and all things New England Patriots, and acting in any way against Belichick means acting against the Patriots.

That's fine if you believe the relationship between Tom and Bill ran its course. I don't disagree. We can point to other factors and who got paid and who didn't, but by the time FA came around the decision had been cast in stone due to irreconcilable differences. I'd just prefer if people would stick with that rather than coming up with nonsensical arguments about the salary cap, rebuilding etc. as though re-signing Brady was an impossible task. That stuff is so weak and desperate. It's such a pathetic argument that even AndyJohnson has adopted it due to its Dunning-Kruger appeal. BTW, congrats on that new addition, Team Bill

 

[RobertWeathers]

Fair enough.

As a Patriots fan, knowing the two couldn't work together any longer, which of the two do think deserved to stay and which do you think deserved to go? Brady was a free agent and Bill was not? That's a cop-out. Another coach/GM could have been brought in long before that, or after the 2020 season, with an aggressive pro-Brady stance. Kraft could have assured Brady he would axe Bill as part of his pitch. It happens all the time in sports. All the time. People mistakenly believe that it is truly, literally, Bill Belichick's football team, in the sense that he's the owner and all things New England Patriots, and acting in any way against Belichick means acting against the Patriots.

Kraft chose Bill. Anything else that Orchids of Asia says is garbage. And btw..

That's fine if you believe the relationship between Tom and Bill ran its course. I don't disagree. We can point to other factors and who got paid and who didn't, but by the time FA came around the decision had been cast in stone due to irreconcilable differences. I'd just prefer if people would stick with that rather than coming up with nonsensical arguments about the salary cap, rebuilding etc. as though re-signing Brady was an impossible task. That stuff is so weak and desperate. It's such a pathetic argument that even AndyJohnson has adopted it due to its Dunning-Kruger appeal. BTW, congrats on that new addition, Team Bill

No question Tom had enough of Bill and the system/culture and I also believe Bill was ready for a new era. Could they have worked together in 2020 if they had to? I think so but it would have been strained as it had been.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Kraft chose Bill. Anything else that Orchids of Asia says is garbage. And btw..

View attachment 34574

No question Tom had enough of Bill and the system/culture and I also believe Bill was ready for a new era. Could they have worked together in 2020 if they had to? I think so but it would have been strained as it had been.

I don't mean deserve as a sentimental award but as which of them was in the best of interest of the franchise to keep, so I'll rephrase. Between Tom and Bill, keeping which one of them would have been best for the Patriots?

 

[Ring 6]

Fair enough.

As a Patriots fan, knowing the two couldn't work together any longer, which of the two do think deserved to stay and which do you think deserved to go? Brady was a free agent and Bill was not? That's a cop-out. Another coach/GM could have been brought in long before that, or after the 2020 season, with an aggressive pro-Brady stance. Kraft could have assured Brady he would axe Bill as part of his pitch. It happens all the time in sports. All the time. People mistakenly believe that it is truly, literally, Bill Belichick's football team, in the sense that he's the owner and all things New England Patriots, and acting in any way against Belichick means acting against the Patriots.

That's fine if you believe the relationship between Tom and Bill ran its course. I don't disagree. We can point to other factors and who got paid and who didn't, but by the time FA came around the decision had been cast in stone due to irreconcilable differences. I'd just prefer if people would stick with that rather than coming up with nonsensical arguments about the salary cap, rebuilding etc. as though re-signing Brady was an impossible task. That stuff is so weak and desperate. It's such a pathetic argument that even AndyJohnson has adopted it due to its Dunning-Kruger appeal. BTW, congrats on that new addition, Team Bill

Again the least aware person on the board chimes in with ignorance

There is no “argument” there is fact.
Keeping Brady would have resulted in the rest of the team deteriorating from where it was in 2019, when it was not going to win. Brady walking sank a 2020 season that was already sank and added roughly 50 million to the cap, which was used to rebuild the roster upgrading half the starters and a lot of the depth.

To think the ability to improve a team that wasn’t good enough around a 43 year old QB isn’t what the decision was about is just based upon emotion and not football.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Again the least aware person on the board chimes in with ignorance

There is no “argument” there is fact.
Keeping Brady would have resulted in the rest of the team deteriorating from where it was in 2019, when it was not going to win. Brady walking sank a 2020 season that was already sank and added roughly 50 million to the cap, which was used to rebuild the roster upgrading half the starters and a lot of the depth.

To think the ability to improve a team that wasn’t good enough around a 43 year old QB isn’t what the decision was about is just based upon emotion and not football.

Why are you responding to me and making this personal? I called out AndyJohnson…and you’ve denied numerous times that you’re the same person.

That was too easy…you should make me work harder next time. It’s like a game of Simon Says where Simon didn’t say on the very first command…yet you fell for it.

 

[Ring 6]

Why are you responding to me and making this personal? I called out AndyJohnson…and you’ve denied numerous times that you’re the same person.

That was too easy…you should make me work harder next time. It’s like a game of Simon Says where Simon didn’t say on the very first command…yet you fell for it.

Yeah right. Take your games to the pub.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Yeah right. Take your games to the pub.

Take your act to the circus, $50M cap hit!!! clown.

 

[RobertWeathers]

I don't mean deserve as a sentimental award but as which of them was in the best of interest of the franchise to keep, so I'll rephrase. Between Tom and Bill, keeping which one of them would have been best for the Patriots?

You know my answer

 

[Ring 6]

Take your act to the circus, $50M cap hit!!! clown.

Tampa paid Brady 50 mill for 2 years.
We carried over cap from last year.
Facts are facts.

 

[Ring 6]

You know my answer

It’s not a reasonable question now. In their primes it would have been and the answer is both would have been worse off apart.

 

[PatsFanSince74]

If Cant Newton is the best choice they have at QB then this team is in trouble, now and in the future.

Not only were the Pats wrong in letting Brady go, it was the worst move by a Boston sports team since Ruth. If TB12 was still with the team they'd probably be one of the favorites to win the SB.

I'm not that interested in Brady having success. I'm a Pats fan first.

The hardest thing to accept is that the Pats are in a transition that was inevitable once Brady moved on. Hopefully it won't be as long until they win another SB as it was for the Steelers after Bradshaw (23 seasons) or the Cowboys after Staubach (13 seasons) or the Packers after Starr (28 seasons).

Brady has made it pretty clear that he wanted to move on. Yes, it's possible that he might have seen that differently if they had the weapons they added this offseason. but that's hypothetical. But, I do believe him when he says that, after growing up in sunny San Mateo, Tampa Bay looked pretty good after 24 winters in Ann Arbor and Foxborough.

Belichick is not an easy HC to work for, by his own admission. I can see a guy of Brady's brains and talent wanting a breath of fresh air for the last two or three years of his career. The Bucs were willing to pay him $50MM over two years, now extended another $50MM with $41 of that up front this season. Bruce Arians is pretty much the anti-Belichick. So far, it's worked out pretty well . Let's see how it looks in January.

While I think you're overstating it re Cam, I'll agree that, If they were looking at him as a long term solution, you'd be right. But he's pretty clearly holding down the job until Mac Jones or someone else steps up. Personally, I'm hoping that Jones is "the guy" and can start 10 or more games this season with the Pats competitive in January again.

Ruth was towards the beginning of his career (five full seasons with Boston vs.15 with New York) so concluding that getting rid of Brady after 20 years is on a par with the Babe's situation just doesn't work. If the Pats are able to rebuild around Jones beginning this year (something they wouldn't have been able to do with TB12 on the roster) and are contending for SB's again in a year, then moving him last year will look like a pretty smart decision.

 

[RobertWeathers]

It’s not a reasonable question now. In their primes it would have been and the answer is both would have been worse off apart.

That and always go with great management over the employee.

 

[scott99]

I haven’t read this whole thread, but it seems to have become a Brady historical thread. Love Brady, but there was no way he could stay. Whether it was because Belichick wanted to move on, or because of cap issues (99% sure this is why Brady isn’t a Patriot anymore). If I remember correctly, when Brady signed for 25 mill with the Bucs, the Pats had 1mill or less in cap space. Therefore, unless they were going to cheat (shut up haters) and circumvent the cap, there was no way the Pats could sign Brady, even if they wanted to.

That being said, if the rumors are true that Belichick wanted to keep Jimmy G in 2017 and trade Brady, well I would go out on a limb and say he has his new (and improved) Jimmy G. Mac Jones is a much better QB coming out of college than Jimmy G ever was. There’s no comparison, except similar builds and quick releases. Mac is much more polished and nuanced than Jimmy G was coming out. Though Jimmy was a gamer, sucked in practiced, performed well in games.

 

[Ring 6]

That and always go with great management over the employee.

Even despite the huge impact a QB has the management and coaching of the team
is still more vital.

 

[Ring 6]

I haven’t read this whole thread, but it seems to have become a Brady historical thread. Love Brady, but there was no way he could stay. Whether it was because Belichick wanted to move on, or because of cap issues (99% sure this is why Brady isn’t a Patriot anymore). If I remember correctly, when Brady signed for 25 mill with the Bucs, the Pats had 1mill or less in cap space. Therefore, unless they were going to cheat (shut up haters) and circumvent the cap, there was no way the Pats could sign Brady, even if they wanted to.

That being said, if the rumors are true that Belichick wanted to keep Jimmy G in 2017 and trade Brady, well I would go out on a limb and say he has his new (and improved) Jimmy G. Mac Jones is a much better QB coming out of college than Jimmy G ever was. There’s no comparison, except similar builds and quick releases. Mac is much more polished and nuanced than Jimmy G was coming out. Though Jimmy was a gamer, sucked in practiced, performed well in games.

As far as the cap is concerned the argument that they could have afforded him
is true but incomplete. In order to afford him they would have had to put a crap team around him for at least 2 years then begin a rebuild with a 45 year old QB.
Hanging on and squeezing the last drops out of the dynasty happened in 2018 and the first half of 2019. By the second half of 2019 it was over.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I don't mean deserve as a sentimental award but as which of them was in the best of interest of the franchise to keep, so I'll rephrase. Between Tom and Bill, keeping which one of them would have been best for the Patriots?

This is a tough one. 43 year old Brady was unprecedented whereas an argument could be made BB still has many years left and wants to catch Shula. And football is 53 players so a roster builder is important. But Brady is just such a special case.