Cam Newton: "It's really put-up or shut-up time"

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

so how do you feel about Seattle when their guys got post-rookie contracts, or KC once they’ll have to pay mahommes again?

y’all know qb is not the only position? Y’all know every pats sb team has a good defense?

Due to Brady’s below market contract and willingness to play without $30M invested in his top two targets, the Patriots were always able to field a good defense. It was a symbiotic relationship between Brady and Belichick. That’s “the secret sauce” in its simplest explanation. Better cap allocation. If the QB makes receivers and linemen better, save that money and spend it elsewhere.

As for the Seahawks and Chiefs, they’ve overpaid the crap out of superstars and neither QB is taking less. But even with those problems, they’re going to be be playoff contenders each year because of the QB position.

You need an elite QB…then you get into how to allocate the remaining funds.

 

[‘Mondre]

Due to Brady’s below market contract and willingness to play without $30M invested in his top two targets, the Patriots were always able to field a good defense. It was a symbiotic relationship between Brady and Belichick. That’s “the secret sauce” in its simplest explanation. Better cap allocation. If the QB makes receivers and linemen better, save that money and spend it elsewhere.

As for the Seahawks and Chiefs, they’ve overpaid the crap out of superstars and neither QB is taking less. But even with those problems, they’re going to be be playoff contenders each year because of the QB position.

You need an elite QB…then you get into how to allocate the remaining funds.

you sure you need an ELITE qb?

Foles, Flacco, Eli, Warner, Allen made it to ACFCG *shrug*

mahommes is better than Brady TODAY (before you go crazy), but had two OL missing so couldn’t do anything. The one pass falling sideways, got injured... they still lost pretty handily.

sure the media hasn’t exaggerated our emphasis on a qbs importance? It can still be the most important position, but less important than we make it out to be. Like example, how they do the “QBX vs QBY” stuff when it’s actually a ridiculous, superficial comparison? Why not say oc vs oc? Cause casual fans know MANNING ROGERS etc. it’s cheap to me.

if you have a good ol/receivers, then your first option on a given pass play will be open (and prepared for weeks/months before you even call the play), no? At that point man, just have good mechanics and strength.... just like everybody else needs. Why does he have to be so smart if the likelihood of the play breaking down is small cause.... iono... you built a roster?

so the whole... intellectualization (is that a word? Iono.) of the qb position in general feels easy. It also allows fans/talking heads to gatekeep “who deserves it” because its SooOoOO much more important/crucial.

and with the gatekeeping point, we arrive back to cam. Mac doesn’t have to be Elite IMO, just josh Allen or dalton level while we build a great defense and sign some weapons. That goes for Newton, and I think that’s at the upper end of his capability. You think Bill puts qb on the same pedestal fans do? I doubt it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

you sure you need an ELITE qb?

Foles, Flacco, Eli, Warner, Allen made it to ACFCG *shrug*

mahommes is better than Brady TODAY (before you go crazy), but had two OL missing so couldn’t do anything. The one pass falling sideways, got injured... they still lost pretty handily.

sure the media hasn’t exaggerated our emphasis on a qbs importance? It can still be the most important position, but less important than we make it out to be. Like example, how they do the “QBX vs QBY” stuff when it’s actually a ridiculous, superficial comparison? Why not say oc vs oc? Cause casual fans know MANNING ROGERS etc. it’s cheap to me.

if you have a good ol/receivers, then your first option on a given pass play will be open (and prepared for weeks/months before you even call the play), no? At that point man, just have good mechanics and strength.... just like everybody else needs. Why does he have to be so smart if the likelihood of the play breaking down is small cause.... iono... you built a roster?

so the whole... intellectualization (is that a word? Iono.) of the qb position in general feels easy. It also allows fans/talking heads to gatekeep “who deserves it” because its SooOoOO much more important/crucial.

and with the gatekeeping point, we arrive back to cam. Mac doesn’t have to be Elite IMO, just josh Allen or dalton level while we build a great defense and sign some weapons. That goes for Newton, and I think that’s at the upper end of his capability. You think Bill puts qb on the same pedestal fans do? I doubt it.

Utter foolishness. I knew you were a troll, and here’s another over-the-top troll post where you give it away.

 

[Pats2000]

Can’t believe some of you think this offseason was a “reset” button. A spending frenzy on free agents is no such thing. I am way more disappointed in the way the Patriots have handled this offseason than last offseason; I’d thought they’d had a plan to rebuild. They don’t. This is the same stuff every non-contender does every few years…throws tons of money at FAs and banks on a first round QB hitting.

Meanwhile the idea Brady needed to be off the books - when the team spent an NFL record amount this year, is a conspiracy theory. It’s sad to see otherwise intelligent posters self-immolate as they try to spin a narrative about the cap, about rebuilding, etc. when the narrative is contradictory and desperate.

Should the Patriots have stacked away the cash they had instead for another year? Would it have been better if Kraft kept it in a big vault and swam through it like Scrooge McDuck?

 

[‘Mondre]

Utter foolishness. I knew you were a troll, and here’s another over-the-top troll post where you give it away.

ad hominem?

so why you entertain the first one?

how about you’re a ****rider?

it’s a fair point that mediocre qbs have won sbs, also that roster-building supplements said mediocrity.....

anybody here thinks Newton can’t play at flacco level is foolish, like you.

ravens Gm got them two rings in 12 years. What Elite qbs did they have over that span? What HoF non-qbs did they have?

especially when qbs are increasingly- in a more offensively-centric league with ballooning contracts- divas who can be gone if their egos aren’t stroked to their satisfaction.

also it was reported that no amount of $$ would’ve kept the alternative to Cam (tb12), so the roster-building point matters.

what do you guys think Bill meant by the “selling out” comment?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

ad hominem?

so why you entertain the first one?

how about you’re a ****rider?

it’s a fair point that mediocre qbs have won sbs, also that roster-building supplements said mediocrity.....

especially when qbs are increasingly- in a more offensively-centric league with ballooning contracts- divas who can be gone if their egos aren’t stroked to their satisfaction.

also it was reported that no amount of $$ would’ve kept the alternative to Cam (tb12), so the roster-building point matters.

what do you guys think Bill meant by the “selling out” comment?

How can I have a serious discussion with someone who asks about winning with “Dalton or Allen” who might be the most opposite QBs in the league? Warner is a Hall of Famer.

Your point is that Brady won and Mahomes lost, but Mahomes is the better QB. Except you ignore they‘re both in the championship round, being the 1-2 QBs in the league. Allen was outstanding last year, as was Rodgers. They were the two all-pros…they made it to the championship round.

Teams with Dalton don’t make the championship. In 16 seasons, Eli Manning won a playoff game in two seasons. Joe Flacco had one hot run and was otherwise the reason the Ravens couldn‘t get over the hump.

None of this will change your mind. You’ll always be able to cite outliers and guys like Foles, Keenum, Bortles…those are all anomalies….their own teams ditched them understanding this. Anyone can win in any given year. It’s just so, so unlikely that it‘s an average, Dalton like QB and not an elite one.

You tell me about Bill’s selling out comment. Which specific transactions, trades, signings, contracts, etc are examples of it?

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Should the Patriots have stacked away the cash they had instead for another year? Would it have been better if Kraft kept it in a big vault and swam through it like Scrooge McDuck?

No choice by 2021 offseason. Getting to this point is the issue.

 

[‘Mondre]

How can I have a serious discussion with someone who asks about winning with “Dalton or Allen” who might be the most opposite QBs in the league? Warner is a Hall of Famer.

Your point is that Brady won and Mahomes lost, but Mahomes is the better QB. Except you ignore they‘re both in the championship round, being the 1-2 QBs in the league. Allen was outstanding last year, as was Rodgers. They were the two all-pros…they made it to the championship round.

Teams with Dalton don’t make the championship. In 16 seasons, Eli Manning won a playoff game in two seasons. Joe Flacco had one hot run and was otherwise the reason the Ravens couldn‘t get over the hump.

None of this will change your mind. You’ll always be able to cite outliers and guys like Foles, Keenum, Bortles…those are all anomalies….their own teams ditched them understanding this. Anyone can win in any given year. It’s just so, so unlikely that it‘s an average, Dalton like QB and not an elite one.

You tell me about Bill’s selling out comment. Which specific transactions, trades, signings, contracts, etc are examples of it?

dude, I read your poetic waxing on about this “symbolic relationship” blah blah ******** glorifying the good ole days/great hope at qb we had (had)

it’s fanboy stuff.

we will end up just like cowboys fans with this garbage.

let cam try to improve while you find the next Hightower, Chung, Dmac and probably lockdown corner.

be grateful we don’t have a diva at qb to complicate the rebuild and create negative attention that infects the locker room.

you are quite foolish.

he’s gone, and prolly checked out a few years ago. Thanks for the rings, but we have a great coach, a motivated qb, and a promising rookie behind him in cash he just ain’t got it.

also I bet a lot of you who are saying “boo hoo covid” probably politically posture about it and its National/individual impact in real life/in front of ppl. So yea it matters. Also mind you he was injured in ‘19.

beyond that tho, or defense will rot if our front office thinks the same way you guys do. Honestly. You’d think some of y’all were his sons.

last point, your “team bills worst nightmare” shtick is fangirl nonsense. You’re the troll.

ppl outside of Massachusetts reeeeally hate this fanbase and there are a few reasons but the “‘member the good ole days” **** will be like umm... Dallas ppl.

be grateful, Jesus.

 

[‘Mondre]

Also the collective narcissism/entitlement is ridiculous. I remember radio ppl saying “oh I would’ve just gotten hoyer!!” As if cam for one million dollars wasn’t an absolute steal.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

dude, I read your poetic waxing on about this “symbolic relationship” blah blah ******** glorifying the good ole days/great hope at qb we had (had)

it’s fanboy stuff.

we will end up just like cowboys fans with this garbage.

let can try to improve while you find the next Hightower, Chung, Dmac and probably lockdown corner.

be grateful we don’t have a diva at qb to complicate the rebuild and create negative attention that infects the locker room.

you are quite foolish.

he’s gone. Thanks for the rings, but we have a great coach, a motivated qb, and a promising rookie behind him in cash he just ain’t got it.

also I bet a lot of you who are saying “boo hoo covid” probably politically posture about it and its National/individual impact in real life/in front of ppl. So yea it matters. Also mind you he was injured in ‘19.

beyond that tho, or defense will rot if our front office thinks the same way you guys do. Honestly. You’d think some of y’all were his sons.

last point, your “team bills worst nightmare” shtick is fangirl nonsense. You’re the troll.

ppl outside of Massachusetts reeeeally hate this fanbase and there are a few reasons but the “‘member the good ole days” **** will be like umm... Dallas ppl.

be grateful, Jesus.

Oh, glad I responded thoughtfully, at your behest, to watch you take a dump.

Your thoughts are incoherent, rambling, angry, and emotional. You crap on the same topics you yourself broached, like a crying toddler.

Should have trusted my instinct and not responded to foolish nonsense, as it‘s just led to angry, ugly foolish nonsense from you.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Also the collective narcissism/entitlement is ridiculous. I remember radio ppl saying “oh I would’ve just gotten hoyer!!” As if cam for one million dollars wasn’t an absolute steal.

You should look up what narcissism means. You’re embarrassing yourself with your attempt at intellectualization. Stick with ****rider, boo hoo Covid and other such words…suits you better.

<Braces for 1400 word response, broken into 300 lines, unrelated to each other.>

 

[‘Mondre]

You should look up what narcissism means. You’re embarrassing yourself with your attempt at intellectualization. Stick with ****rider, boo hoo Covid and other such words…suits you better.

<Braces for 1400 word response, broken into 300 lines, unrelated to each other.>

Dis guy is clown.

 

[Tony2046]

I usually disagree with most of your takes on Belichick. I have a hard time bashing either Belichick or Brady-I'm just grateful for all theyve done. Nothing thats happened has made me lose one ounce of respect for either.
And none of us really knows for sure all the reasons this happened.
But Bill is in charge. Just as I hold Tom accountable for what happens on the field,I hold Bill accountable for running the team.
So I agree with you on this- Bill f'd up, plain and simple.
By 2020 it was probably too late. But there was plenty he couldve done prior to that to salvage losing Brady.
He should've learned by his miscalculation of how well Brady would play beyond 40, when he drafted Jimmy G- a couple years too early.
Theres no bigger fan of Belichick on this board than me-going back to the Milloy thing- which I was one of a very few that agreed w. Bill 100% from the getgo.
But in this case,Bill f'd up.

I think it was just a divorce type of situation. We got twenty great fan years out of it. I'm not bitter or blame either of them.

 

[stinkypete]

Quit your bickering, kids, or I'm going to turn this car around and we'll go back home.

 

[stinkypete]

We have plenty of evidence that a team can win a SB with an average to below-average starting QB. It happens a couple of times a decade. The difference is that these are one-and-done type teams that slip in on the strength of a dominant defense, in a wonky year, and either pull off a stupid upset or luck into facing a weak playoff field. You need the bona fide elite QB to experience the run of constant contention that we've become accostomed to.

 

[Captain Cliche]

I'm more a believer in balance/depth over skill position in the NFL.
Obviously Bill builds the Patriots this way. Last true #1 receiver was Randy Moss (at a discount). This is not the NBA.
We were exceptionally lucky to have Brady at less than a max deal.

We also lost to Goober twice and Nick effin Foales. Because we lost in the trenches or a weak D.
Brady, Moss, Welker did not win the Super Bowl. Why is that? Because Brady spent most of his time on his ass.
Mahomes got his ass handed to him last SB. Why? Injuries/lack of depth on the O-line. How'd having the superstar QB work out for them?

I honestly don't understand how people cannot see this. All it takes is one injury and all the financial and draft capitol you put into a superstar player just went down the toilet. BB builds and coaches up great teams. This includes depth and not overpaying for singular talent.
Having Tom Brady allowed it to turn into dynastic proportions. The marriage ended. Nothing lasts forever.

I think Bill wants to show you can win with team depth and a manageable QB situation...limit turnovers, strong running game, strong D and special teams.
The first rule is "Do no harm". Look how he benches running backs that fumble. If you lose the turnover battle, more than likely you lose the game and visa versa. Undisciplined teams lose games. Cam and Stidham are turnover machines (so far). According to Michael Lombardi, the book on Hoyer is he craps his pants in the red zone. The Kansas City loss seems to bear this out.

Fortunately for us, I think he just struck gold with Mac. If not, hopefully, at minimum, he becomes a serviceable QB that minimizes mistakes.
He is a great match for the Patriots.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

I'm more a believer in balance/depth over skill position in the NFL.
Obviously Bill builds the Patriots this way. Last true #1 receiver was Randy Moss (at a discount). This is not the NBA.
We were exceptionally lucky to have Brady at less than a max deal.

We also lost to Goober twice and Nick effin Foales. Because we lost in the trenches or a weak D.
Brady, Moss, Welker did not win the Super Bowl. Why is that? Because Brady spent most of his time on his ass.
Mahomes got his ass handed to him last SB. Why? Injuries/lack of depth on the O-line. How'd having the superstar QB work out for them?

I honestly don't understand how people cannot see this. All it takes is one injury and all the financial and draft capitol you put into a superstar player just went down the toilet. BB builds and coaches up great teams. This includes depth and not overpaying for singular talent.
Having Tom Brady allowed it to turn into dynastic proportions. The marriage ended. Nothing lasts forever.

I think Bill wants to show you can win with team depth and a manageable QB situation...limit turnovers, strong running game, strong D and special teams.
The first rule is "Do no harm". Look how he benches running backs that fumble. If you lose the turnover battle, more than likely you lose the game and visa versa. Undisciplined teams lose games. Cam and Stidham are turnover machines (so far). According to Michael Lombardi, the book on Hoyer is he craps his pants in the red zone. The Kansas City loss seems to bear this out.

Fortunately for us, I think he just struck gold with Mac. If not, hopefully, at minimum, he becomes a serviceable QB that minimizes mistakes.
He is a great match for the Patriots.

What are some examples of quarterbacks who are good enough to win with a balanced Belichick team? Unspectacular guys who get the job done and limit mistakes - even without great skill players - and don’t break the bank either? Can you name any? I’m trying to figure what many of you mean by this.

Examples I’ve thought of: Derek Carr, Jared Goff, Nick Foles. But when these guys are presumably available as trade targets, it seems there’s so much negativity on this board from the same people who rail against needing an elite QB. If people think Andy Dalton is a guy who fits the mold, why do they revolt against the idea of trading for Andy Dalton?

To put it bluntly: I have trouble accepting an intangible description of “we don’t need an elite QB; we just need a QB who...” without attempting to give comparable player examples. It shouldn’t be so hard to find.

 

[Zuma]

What are some examples of quarterbacks who are good enough to win with a balanced Belichick team? Unspectacular guys who get the job done and limit mistakes - even without great skill players - and don’t break the bank either? Can you name any? I’m trying to figure what many of you mean by this.

Examples I’ve thought of: Derek Carr, Jared Goff, Nick Foles. But when these guys are presumably available as trade targets, it seems there’s so much negativity on this board from the same people who rail against needing an elite QB. If people think Andy Dalton is a guy who fits the mold, why do they revolt against the idea of trading for Andy Dalton?

To put it bluntly: I have trouble accepting an intangible description of “we don’t need an elite QB; we just need a QB who...” without attempting to give comparable player examples. It shouldn’t be so hard to find.

No way would I want Dalton now. 5 years ago Dalton....sure.

 

[Captain Cliche]

What are some examples of quarterbacks who are good enough to win with a balanced Belichick team? Unspectacular guys who get the job done and limit mistakes - even without great skill players - and don’t break the bank either? Can you name any? I’m trying to figure what many of you mean by this.

Examples I’ve thought of: Derek Carr, Jared Goff, Nick Foles. But when these guys are presumably available as trade targets, it seems there’s so much negativity on this board from the same people who rail against needing an elite QB. If people think Andy Dalton is a guy who fits the mold, why do they revolt against the idea of trading for Andy Dalton?

To put it bluntly: I have trouble accepting an intangible description of “we don’t need an elite QB; we just need a QB who...” without attempting to give comparable player examples. It shouldn’t be so hard to find.

Thanks, Ice.
That was a reasonable response and gives me a better understanding of where you're coming from.

I don't understand BB's infatuation with Cam, unless it's price. I believe he is what he is...an inaccurate turnover machine that got by on leg talent and not on processing ability. This seems to be the antithesis of what BB looks for. I thought they would at least show interest in Darnold and seem to pass on any available middle tier QB on the cheap.

Before drafting Mac, I was confused with what appeared to be a lack of a plan at QB (assuming Stidham isn't hacking it).
They also appeared to have a plan B in the draft and were not willing to move up for any of the QB's and were, quite honestly, lucky he fell to them.

BTW, Stidham is starting out on PUP. Don't you have to actually play some football to get injured?

 

[Pats2000]

No choice by 2021 offseason. Getting to this point is the issue.

Exactly, you can't change the past so BB did the best with what was available on the market. They have a good team around them.

They got their probable QB of the future, a possibly serviceable stop gap until Mac is ready and a defense that should ruin other teams day. No one will ever be Brady again, but two more years and Brady may not even be Brady.

Mac is the most Brady like QB to come out of college in a long time. So I'm excited for the season, no one is perfect and without that Tampa Bay D stepping up like that at the end of the season, Brady would have had a first round playoff exit. And we would be talking about how BB made the right decision at the right time.