The 2nd Patriots dynasty does not happen without Edelman. > NFL Hall of Fame.

[Actual Pats Fan]

His post-season résumé speaks for itself; big play after big play after big play.

I can name fifty guys in the PFHOF who don't belong there. And fifty more who aren't in who should have been first ballot.

My advice is this: Imagine any of our former Pats playing their careers somewhere else. Anywhere else. That changes the whole dynamic.

Anti-Patriots bias was epidemic in the league and media - and in our opponents - for two decades after the merger. It then got worse when Kraft kept the team here, destroyed our logo and uniforms and broke ground for CMGI Field.

It then got astronomically worse with the dynastic success this century, culminating in three fake scandals, three stolen top draft picks and absolute validation in public perception of the completely false cheating allegations launched at us since January 2002.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

I was responding to the original statement that the dynasty doesn’t happen without Edelman which I think Gronk was more important.

What I meant by complimentary/sidekick was that he can’t carry the team on his back the entire season as he’s not built for that. However, he’s been extremely clutch and shows up when needed.

But Gronk was the guy that dominated all season long giving the rest of the guys more room to operate.

You're right. But we can also safely say that Dynasty II doesn't happen without Brady, either.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Nice find and about time someone recognizes that. I think they punted but I know they didn’t score the rest of the game.

OK this is getting masochistic.

 

[TheRainMaker]

OK this is getting masochistic.

Not sure what you mean. Just pointing out that Welker had backbreaking drops two years in a row.

 

[VectorPrime]

Talib tapping out over an owie was more responsible for that loss against the Ravens than Welker.

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Not sure what you mean. Just pointing out that Welker had backbreaking drops two years in a row.

Sorry. I just don't want to relive a bitter loss.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Talib tapping out over an owie was more responsible for that loss against the Ravens than Welker.

I agree Talib bailing on the team like that was pathetic and the Ravens offense was dead to rights until the injury. Fast forward a year later, he leaves again with Welker lighting him up. I’m pretty sure this was why Bill passed on him and signed Revis.

Sorry. I just don't want to relive a bitter loss.

Yeah that was painful as that 2012 team was pretty damn good. The Gronk and Talib injuries were the deciding factors.

 

[Pape]

Edelman? Hall of Fame? ... I'm good with that... Put him in

Welker? Hall of Fame? ... I'm good with that ... Put him in

Gronk? Hall of Fame? ... Put him in.

 

[Tony2046]

But it's fun!!

My favorite day on the golf course was during a company tournament.

One Thursday I was playing against the production manager. The most stressed person in any company.

He was having the worst golfing day ever. He hit in the woods, he hit in the river, he hit a shot that hit the yardage marker and the ball ricochet behind him, and on his approach to the 16th green he hit a shot that went straight up, landed and went backwards because of the backspin. He turned to me and said, "fun? Fun? You call this shyt fun? I could be at home eating a peanut butter sandwich". Hahaha

 

[Tony2046]

I was responding to the original statement that the dynasty doesn’t happen without Edelman which I think Gronk was more important.

What I meant by complimentary/sidekick was that he can’t carry the team on his back the entire season as he’s not built for that. However, he’s been extremely clutch and shows up when needed.

But Gronk was the guy that dominated all season long giving the rest of the guys more room to operate.

Except for one super bowl.

 

[VectorPrime]

The problem for the Pats Dynasty in its Hall of Fame probability is that HoF voters give credit for the defense to Belichick and credit for the offense to Brady and everyone else is some cog. Someone like Gronk will be an exception due to his sheer unquestioned dominance but it took Ty Law multiple years and Seymour might never get in. So forget about many others.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Welker > Edelman


So talk to me about Edelman getting into the HOF after Welker gets in. Until then, there's nothing to discuss.

The HOF isn't just about stats. It's a part of the equation for sure but it's never as simple as "Player x didn't get in and he's better so no"

 

[Deus Irae]

The HOF isn't just about stats. It's a part of the equation for sure but it's never as simple as "Player x didn't get in and he's better so no"

I didn't claim the HOF was just about stats.

 

[sb1]

The problem for the Pats Dynasty in its Hall of Fame probability is that HoF voters give credit for the defense to Belichick and credit for the offense to Brady and everyone else is some cog. Someone like Gronk will be an exception due to his sheer unquestioned dominance but it took Ty Law multiple years and Seymour might never get in. So forget about many others.

OT - I actually don't think it's a lock right now that BB himself gets inducted on the first ballot.

He probably will but not for sure. Brady will be unanimous but Bill won't be. I think Spygate will be a big problem with a lot of voters unfortunately, as will Bill's track record without Brady if he can't get this team back on track.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Except for one super bowl.

We get it one Super Bowl equals a Dynasty.

Take away Gronk and Edelman carries them throughout the regular season and playoffs.

He’s the main reason not named Brady they went to 8 AFC title games and 5 Super Bowls.

Put down the weed if you’d take Edelman over Gronk.

 

[Tony2046]

We get it one Super Bowl equals a Dynasty.

Take away Gronk and Edelman carries them throughout the regular season and playoffs.

He’s the main reason not named Brady they went to 8 AFC title games and 5 Super Bowls.

Put down the weed if you’d take Edelman over Gronk.

The "2nd dynasty" never won a Superbowl without Edelman but won one without Gronk.

You needed both of them.

Edelman was a special player and did carry the team.

 

[Joker]

TONY!!! gettin' close now, brother...can't wait for all the "what if?" and "it's real bad!" offseason takes to be buried in the shytter where they belong. No matter how the coming season plays out, I personally, am going to ENJOY every freakin' second of it.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

The "2nd dynasty" never won a Superbowl without Edelman but won one without Gronk.

You needed both of them.

Edelman was a special player and did carry the team.

I wouldn’t use the binary Super Bowl standard here because in 2017 they had Gronkowski and not Edelman and the offense blazed the Eagles defense. That 2016 offense dropped off quite a bit without Gronk, but they were still pretty loaded and still had Bennett. But prior to Gronk’s injury in 2016, they we’re destroying teams…that shouldn’t be overlooked about Jimmy G’s showcase either. If Gronk had stayed healthy, I actually would take the 2016 squad over 2007 or 2004.

But I totally agree with the overall point. Edelman was incredibly valuable…if a guy whose presence/absence makes such a huge different for a dynastic team that made five Super Bowls (and may have won more if they’d trusted him 2010-12), then there’s gotta be a strong Hall case. Edelman wasn’t Jim Leyritz or Derek Fischer here…he was dominant and always most dominant when it mattered.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

It is strange to me that so many people claim “clutch“ and championships aren’t really Hall measurements, but it’s almost universally agreed that Vinatieri is “a first ballot Hall of Famer.”

A kicker, who was very accurate and played in a lot of postseason games, but who also wasn’t great on kickoffs of long FGs, a Hall of Famer, without putting a lot of weight on clutch/postseason? Longevity stats are great, but those alone probably don’t get a place kicker in.

 

[Simpelton]

Welker's postseason stats:

13 games
116 targets
88 receptions
75.9% catch percentage
5 TDs


Edelman's postseason stats:
19 games
180 targets
118 receptions
65.6% catch percentage
5 TDs

• In the 2011 playoff run (Welker drop year), Welker had 19 receptions on 23 targets (83% catch rate). In that Super Bowl game, he had 7 catches on 8 targets.
• In comparison, in the 2017 playoff run (Edelman ground catch year), Edelman had 21 receptions on 36 targets (58%). In that Super Bowl game, he had 5 catches on 13 targets.

The notion that "Welker is blown out of the water by Edelman's postseason accomplishments." is not accurate.

You know as well as I do that you can't use quantitative analysis in the playoffs. Edelman made his best plays at the best time. Welker's time in New england is best known for the two Superbowls we lost and several more years where we didn't get there. Meanwhile with Edelman in harness we got to the Superbowl more often than not. Not to mention Edelman making key plays in each of 49, 51 and 53 to secure us those wins.

There is no comparison. Edelman, despite playing with the same Brady and even less help from other top WRs, helped put the Patriots further in his time in New England so far than Welker ever could. And Welker had Moss beside him and Brady in what should have been his prime years.

It's not that Welker was unclutch. It's that Edelman is pretty much in a category all his own in terms of being able to get open in tight spaces in key moments, and is way harder to take away from Brady than Welker ever was when the chips are down and it's do-or-die.