The 2nd Patriots dynasty does not happen without Edelman. > NFL Hall of Fame.

[Deus Irae]

You know as well as I do that you can't use quantitative analysis in the playoffs. Edelman made his best plays at the best time. Welker's time in New england is best known for the two Superbowls we lost and several more years where we didn't get there. Meanwhile with Edelman in harness we got to the Superbowl more often than not. Not to mention Edelman making key plays in each of 49, 51 and 53 to secure us those wins.

There is no comparison. Edelman, despite playing with the same Brady and even less help from other top WRs, helped put the Patriots further in his time in New England so far than Welker ever could. And Welker had Moss beside him and Brady in what should have been his prime years.

You know as I do that trying to saddle Welker with the team's playoff record and playoff losses is asinine, just as trying to credit Edelman with the team's playoff record and playoff wins is asinine.

And saying that there is no comparison is complete nonsense, as I've already demonstrated. You're claiming that you can't use quantitative analysis, yet you're not offering anything, at all, to back up your position in response to mine. But let me toss some reality into the mix:

The Patriots loss in the 2007 SB was obviously not Welker's fault (14 targets, 11 receptions, 103 yards).
Brady going down in week 1 in 2008 was obviously not Welker's fault.
Welker popping his ACL in Houston meant that he missed the 2009 playoffs.
It was Brady and Crumpler who failed the offense in the 2010 game against the Jets.
We've already covered the 2011 SB.
Welker had 8 catches on 12 targets, for 117 yards and a TD in the 2012 playoff loss.

It's not that Welker was unclutch. It's that Edelman is pretty much in a category all his own in terms of being able to get open in tight spaces in key moments, and is way harder to take away from Brady than Welker ever was when the chips are down and it's do-or-die.

Welker was much the superior player in terms of getting open quickly in tight spaces.

 

[TheRainMaker]

If Gronk had stayed healthy, I actually would take the 2016 squad over 2007 or 2004.

2015 was better than 2016.

Injuries and bad coaching moves did them in.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

Welker serves a great example for 100% moron, homer, yer ded to me, trayter! mentality.

The guy played through so many injuries, always went full out over the middle, and was one of the all-time greatest Patriots receivers. I noticed no one hated Welker or called him a choker until he went to Denver, at which point revisionist history blew up everything he accomplished.

Here is why actual analysis is actually important: Welker was terrific in the postseason just like the regular season and the numbers confirm it. No one recognizes how many dominant playoff games he had or how productive he was in both SB losses. It comes to people blaming him for the following:

• Super Bowl 46. I believe the drop was his fault, basically 100%, but he had a big game, numerous other players dropped balls down the stretch (Branch, Hernandez) and the entire offense melted down. That game was one of the worst experiences I’ve had as a fan. I believed, at no time ever, that they were going to win. Every bounce went against them, every bad omen, etc. They were “this close” to putting the game away about 10 times.
• 2012, AFCCG vs. Ravens. After being apparently the only player in NFL history to drop a pass on 3rd down, he was blamed later by the fanbase for a loss where the team utterly **** the bed. Based on everything else that happened the second half, the very likely scenario if he catches that, is they still punt or maybe get a FG, then proceed to get pummeled. Gronk injury, Lloyd’s shortcomings, Ridley injury…great Ravens defense….to blame a blowout loss one drop is moronic.

The fact is our memories and perceptions are colored by hindsight. Had the Patriots won in 2007, 2010, 2011, or 2012, we could point to so many huge plays by Welker. And believe it or not, Edelman has also dropped balls in the postseason…though we tend to ignore those.

This isn’t to argue Welker > Edelman. I’ve broken down in other threads why I think these guys are very different. One of them is a strong dude who is quick as hell and the other is a little guy who excelled at fast acceleration.

 

[Deus Irae]

Welker serves a great example for 100% moron, homer, yer ded to me, trayter! mentality.

The guy played through so many injuries, always went full out over the middle, and was one of the all-time greatest Patriots receivers. I noticed no one hated Welker or called him a choker until he went to Denver, at which point revisionist history blew up everything he accomplished.

Here is why actual analysis is actually important: Welker was terrific in the postseason just like the regular season and the numbers confirm it. No one recognizes how many dominant playoff games he had or how productive he was in both SB losses. It comes to people blaming him for the following:

• Super Bowl 46. I believe the drop was his fault, basically 100%, but he had a big game, numerous other players dropped balls down the stretch (Branch, Hernandez) and the entire offense melted down. That game was one of the worst experiences I’ve had as a fan. I believed, at no time ever, that they were going to win. Every bounce went against them, every bad omen, etc. They were “this close” to putting the game away about 10 times.
• 2012, AFCCG vs. Ravens. After being apparently the only player in NFL history to drop a pass on 3rd down, he was blamed later by the fanbase for a loss where the team utterly **** the bed. Based on everything else that happened the second half, the very likely scenario if he catches that, is they still punt or maybe get a FG, then proceed to get pummeled. Gronk injury, Lloyd’s shortcomings, Ridley injury…great Ravens defense….to blame a blowout loss one drop is moronic.

The fact is our memories and perceptions are colored by hindsight. Had the Patriots won in 2007, 2010, 2011, or 2012, we could point to so many huge plays by Welker. And believe it or not, Edelman has also dropped balls in the postseason…though we tend to ignore those.

This isn’t to argue Welker > Edelman. I’ve broken down in other threads why I think these guys are very different. One of them is a strong dude who is quick as hell and the other is pretty little guy who excelled at fast acceleration.

This is also about selective memory, as if Edelman never dropped the ball in the playoffs. People seem to completely ignore the Edelman drops in the 2015 and 2019 playoffs.

Julian Edelman Laments Drops, Recovers In Mic'ed Up Performance Vs. Chiefs (Video) - NESN.com

Patriots' loss to Titans pretty much summed up a trying season for the offense

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

2015 was better than 2016.

Injuries and bad coaching moves did them in.

Injuries hurt the 2015 team, but they lacked depth after Gronk, Edelman, and Lewis. Scott Chandler, Keyshawn Martin, Brandon Bolden, (f’ing) Chris Harper, Steven Jackson (lol.)

In 2016, they hit on all their additions: Martellus Bennett, Chris Hogan, Malcolm Mitchell, Joe Thuney too.

Not sure if we’re going there, but 2016 defense was better too.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

I didn't claim the HOF was just about stats.

It's the literal only argument for Welker over Edelman

 

[Actual Pats Fan]

Edelman? Hall of Fame? ... I'm good with that... Put him in

Welker? Hall of Fame? ... I'm good with that ... Put him in

Gronk? Hall of Fame? ... Put him in.

Wes & Gronk should be good...that they finished their careers not as Pats helps their case (sick but true).

I think Cliff Branch & Ellard have to get in B4 Squirrel. Sh*t, Cappelletti & Antwine belong in there (40 years late)

 

[Deus Irae]

It's the literal only argument for Welker over Edelman

Welker is a two-time 1st team All-pro and a 5 time pro bowler. So saying that stats are the "literal only argument for Welker over Edelman" is just making a ludicrous claim.

 

[patsfanincleveland]

I wouldn’t use the binary Super Bowl standard here because in 2017 they had Gronkowski and not Edelman and the offense blazed the Eagles defense. That 2016 offense dropped off quite a bit without Gronk, but they were still pretty loaded and still had Bennett. But prior to Gronk’s injury in 2016, they we’re destroying teams…that shouldn’t be overlooked about Jimmy G’s showcase either. If Gronk had stayed healthy, I actually would take the 2016 squad over 2007 or 2004.

But I totally agree with the overall point. Edelman was incredibly valuable…if a guy whose presence/absence makes such a huge different for a dynastic team that made five Super Bowls (and may have won more if they’d trusted him 2010-12), then there’s gotta be a strong Hall case. Edelman wasn’t Jim Leyritz or Derek Fischer here…he was dominant and always most dominant when it mattered.

This actually sums it up quite well.

Jules big problem is not lack of stats but the wrong criteria for evaluating HOF credentials.

Some players like Gale Sayers were HOF worthy because they were that good.

Likewise, players like JE were unique in that he made the whole great through his piece of puzzle. His greatness is his part in an offense that went to 4 SB's in 5 and won 3 with his clutch contributions at all levels.

TO is the classic example of someone in who should never be in........if evaluated correctly.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Scott Chandler

What a disaster that was.

Not sure if we’re going there, but 2016 defense was better too.

If you’re going by the PPG category, but the 2015 team had 3 Pro Bowlers and Jaime Collins All Pro year. They also had Akiem Hicks on the interior. They were getting after teams and were 2nd in sacks.

2015 D had better talent. They easily win in 2015 without injuries.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Welker is a two-time 1st team All-pro and a 5 time pro bowler. So saying that stats are the "literal only argument for Welker over Edelman" is just making a ludicrous claim.

HOW DO YOU BECOME AN ALL-PRO AND A 5 TIME PRO BOWLER DEUS?

BY BEING A NICE ****ING GUY?

 

[A Defiant Goose]

HOW DO YOU BECOME AN ALL-PRO AND A 5 TIME PRO BOWLER DEUS?

BY BEING A NICE ****ING GUY?

Deus I like you but you can be a serious pain in the ass sometimes.

Deus: It's cold outside
Me: What? It's 98 degrees out
Deus: I didn't say the temperature wasn't 98 degrees
Me: But you said it was cold
Deus: no I said it was cold outside. Which it is. Try again.
Me: IT'S 98 DEGREES OUT
Deus: And?
Me: THAT'S HOT!
Deus: I didn't say it wasn't hot, I said it was cold

WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS

 

[Steve102]

Talk about right down party lines. The Pro-Welker crowd touting their guy, the pro-Edelman folks touting theirs. There's one reason that Edelman gets more love than Welker:

Welker's biggest problem? No rings. Other than that, they are both great.

 

[Deus Irae]

Deus I like you but you can be a serious pain in the ass sometimes.

Deus: It's cold outside
Me: What? It's 98 degrees out
Deus: I didn't say the temperature wasn't 98 degrees
Me: But you said it was cold
Deus: no I said it was cold outside. Which it is. Try again.
Me: IT'S 98 DEGREES OUT
Deus: And?
Me: THAT'S HOT!
Deus: I didn't say it wasn't hot, I said it was cold

WHY ARE YOU LIKE THIS

You're making no sense. Your claim was that stats were "It's the literal only argument for Welker over Edelman". But being first team All Pro is not a stat. What you're basically trying to do is say that despite clearly being the better player, Welker's not the better player, because Edelman was a WR on SB winning teams, while Welker's SB teams didn't win.


So, using your argument, we should now be arguing that Malcolm Mitchell > Randy Moss.

 

[TheRainMaker]

Talk about right down party lines. The Pro-Welker crowd touting their guy, the pro-Edelman folks touting theirs. There's one reason that Edelman gets more love than Welker:

Welker's biggest problem? No rings. Other than that, they are both great.

Welker takes a lot of heat for them not winning.

Welker made the slot WR en Vogue and was a cheat code for the middle of the field.

Aside from ‘07, Welker was on some pretty lopsided teams = good offense/terrible defense.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

You're making no sense. Your claim was that stats were "It's the literal only argument for Welker over Edelman". But being first team All Pro is not a stat. What you're basically trying to do is say that despite clearly being the better player, Welker's not the better player, because Edelman was a WR on SB winning teams, while Welker's SB teams didn't win.


So, using your argument, we should now be arguing that Malcolm Mitchell > Randy Moss.

Let's start from the beginning.

You said Welker should go in before we even think about Edelman.

I said the HOF isn't solely about stats, where Welker trumps Edelman.

You then said he trumps him in professional accolades. How do you get those professional accolades Deus? With stats.

All-pros and pro-bowls are completely different from HOF. The HOF takes into consideration factors beyond statistics. Those other accolades don't.

 

[A Defiant Goose]

For what it's worth I do think Welker needs to be in. I just don't think he's more deserving than Edelman. Two different careers.

 

[Deus Irae]

You then said he trumps him in professional accolades. How do you get those professional accolades Deus? With stats.

Think really, really hard about that part of your post. I'll wait for your "My bad. I don't know what the **** I was thinking when I posted that.".

 

[A Defiant Goose]

Think really, really hard about that part of your post. I'll wait for your "My bad. I don't know what the **** I was thinking when I posted that.".

I will freely admit I'm wrong if I'm missing something here, that all-pros and pro bowls factor in anything other than stats. Unlike the HOF, which takes into account "softer" factors beyond just stats

 

[everlong]

The second Patriots Dynasty wouldn't have happened without Hightower, White........endless.

If I could start with an empty hall as much as I like JE11 he's not getting in. That said with Swann, Stallworth, Pearson........all getting in I really see no reason to keep him out. Different ear so the numbers don't quite match up but if you're leeting guys in largely on their playoff contributions I can argue he's been as important if not more than all of them.

The offensive skill positions are already getting too many players with big volume numbers and that's going to continue.