Front Seven

[BTTA]

I agree, as long as Gilmore is here.

...and playing somewhere close to 2019 level, vs. 2020.

 

[Sicilian]

Assuming healthy, they should be better (on paper). The defense overall last year was middle of the road statistically. Everything that went wrong for them started as a result of very poor run defense. Teams not only ran for first downs, but created constant 3rd and shorts, which completely negated the strength of the defense (the secondary). So looking at the front seven compared to last year, considering run D first:

IDL - We lost Butler, who was never considered much of a run defender. We added three guys who, while not Ted Washington, were all rated highly in run D in 2020 (Godchaux, Anderson, Adams). We also drafted Barmore, but I'd be surprised if he contributed much on running downs in his rookie season, if ever at all.

Edge - We lost John Simon, and added Matthew Judon, which is step up not just in run D but just about everything IMO. We also drafted Perkins, but again, I'm not going to count on rookies for much in year one.

Stand-up LB - We lost Brandon Copeland (oh no...?) and added Hightower and Van Noy. Assuming both are still reasonably themselves, those are HUGE upgrades to that group.

Safety - No big additions or subtractions here. But I have high hopes for Dugger in year 2. I think he will be a plus in run support compared to last year.

So we should be better this year on run D, which will help trickle down to other areas by A) Putting the defense in more favorable downs and distances on a more regular basis, and B) Putting players who should be situational into roles that fit them better, such as Winovich being used as a high motor pass rush specialist, Uche staying on the edge, hopefully Barmore carving a 3rd down role in the middle, and Bentley (if he's on the team) remaining in a depth role.

 

[mgteich]

...and playing somewhere close to 2019 level, vs. 2020.

If the team has this worry, then they should trade him. Others will surely want to pay for his services.

No one can predict the future.

That being said, Gilmore is our best player, and one of the best corners in the league. If we don't believe this, then we should trade him.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

If the team has this worry, then they should trade him. Others will surely want to pay for his services.

No one can predict the future.

That being said, Gilmore is our best player, and one of the best corners in the league. If we don't believe this, then we should trade him.

I think the reward of an elite CB1 is higher than almost any position.

Also, I think this may have a lot to do with JC Jackson. The better Jackson is, and the more he’s capable of shutting down elite receivers, the less important it is for the team to have another high-paid CB.

 

[mgteich]

I think the reward of an elite CB1 is higher than almost any position.

Also, I think this may have a lot to do with JC Jackson. The better Jackson is, and the more he’s capable of shutting down elite receivers, the less important it is for the team to have another high-paid CB.

There is a tradition in this passing league. Good teams benefit from two top corners.

BTW, Jackson isn't signed for 2022.

 

[Ice_Ice_Brady]

There is a tradition in this passing league. Good teams benefit from two top corners.

BTW, Jackson isn't signed for 2022.

A tradition? Lol…what does that even mean? Of course they’d benefit; it doesn’t mean it’s cost effective with finite spending.

The Patriots pay big bucks to McCourty, too, as a top FS and ballhawk.

They’ve always gone by the philosophy that one shutdown corner is better than two good corners. It allows you to have much more scheme flexibility.

 

[Tunescribe]

I’m going to be interested in how well the defensive front seven plays this year. I’m worried that there aren’t enough playmakers there. I mean, it’s a deep group, but there aren’t any potentially elite players. My biggest hope is that Judon will flourish and take that next step and become a pass rushing terror in the Pats’ system. But so far he’s just been a “pretty good” NFL pass rusher.

Beyond that, we’re just hoping for a lot from the 31-year olds (Van Noy, Hightower, and Guy). Hightower is the only one I have pegged as an elite enough athlete to possibly be a PB caliber player into his 30s, and he hasn’t played in two years.

Lots of questions other than that. New additions Anderson and Godchaux - JAGs. Rookies Barmore and Perkins - rookies have a hard time winning time in our D. Uche - has potential, but would need to improve. Winovich - probably in the dog house for a reason. Cowart, Wise, Jennings - nothing special there.

Again, I don’t think we’ll be weak up front, but it’s hard for me to see this group being special or generating enough pressure. I’m thinking we just have an average-ish D, even with our top-of-the-league CB tandem…

The front seven's fortunes will depend heavily on the back four playing dominant coverage. We need a healthy and motivated Gilmore back there.

 

[stinkypete]

Some of the most effective front sevens in the Belichick Era have been comprised of a cluster of guys with 5 - 9 sacks each rather than a couple of 10+ sack players. The only player to reach double digit sacks with the team in the early dynasty era was Vrabel in 2007. Often, the defenses that featured double digit sack players were among the weaker of recent memory (TBC with 10 in 2009, Andre Carter and Mark Anderson with 10 each in 2011). Really, the only consistent sack artist we've had was Chandler Jones, and many would argue that those pass rushes suffered from lack of depth (and late season disapearances).

I feel good about the depth. Hightower, KVN, Judon, Winovich, Uche and Perkins form a deep group of pass rushers.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

I feel good about the depth. Hightower, KVN, Judon, Winovich, Uche and Perkins form a deep group of pass rushers.

Yes this feels good. Perkins is a bit young but you have to love the attitude. He said the Pats told him that he would have to cover as well, and he said that is no problem because he was a TE originally. Not quite sure why TEs are good at covering a RB, but the positive, aggressive attitude is fun.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

Overall, I think we're looking at an improved unit from 2020. You can't understate the difference Hightower and Van Noy will make considering Bentley and Terez ****ing Hall were our starters by the end of last year.

And we were an average defense last year with Bentley and Hall.

Then we get into the mid-tier additions like Anderson and Godchaux. The thing is, even if these aren't flashy players, we didn't even have mid-tier guys like this a year ago.

And we were an average defense last year without any mid-tier defenders.

And I agree Barmore will be limited to pass rush situations and outplay what Butler gave us last year.

 

[Scotty]

I really hope that Barmore turns out to be a star from day 1 and gives opposition DC's something to worry about. Would love to see a player like this in our defence.

 

[BTTA]

If the team has this worry, then they should trade him. Others will surely want to pay for his services.

No one can predict the future.

That being said, Gilmore is our best player, and one of the best corners in the league. If we don't believe this, then we should trade him.

I don't see that. They need strong play from CB1 and wouldn't likely get that in return for him. Its better to have the concern, see how things play out, hope for the best, and develop the CB's with the assumption that he won't be good.

 

[mgteich]

I really hope that Barmore turns out to be a star from day 1 and gives opposition DC's something to worry about. Would love to see a player like this in our defence.

and I hope that we win the Super Bowl.

It is fine to have hopes.
================
BTW, when was the last patriot rookie that was a star from Day 1?

 

[Scotty]

I'll try , but you may expect this.....Onwenu ?

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Should be very good but would feel better if there was one bonafide immovable fat guy at nose tackle. I'm not entirely convinced last year's league-worst red zone and 3rd-down runD was fixed.

.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Should be very good but would feel better if there was one bonafide immovable fat guy at nose tackle. I'm not entirely convinced last year's league-worst red zone and 3rd-down runD was fixed.

.

I think when you look at last years front 6 the only guy we will see often is L.Guy and Wise. Copeland/Bentley/Simon etc. are for several reasons out or will see limited snaps. I do believe that a Guy Godchaux combo with Judon Wise/KvN/Anderson at Edge with HT at ILB, Dugger second year jump i expect our run defense a lot better. We can keep our DT/DE/LB starters fresh by a better depth with Barmore/Anderson for example could play DT as well on early downs. I hope with a stronger front we can see Uche as an off the ball LB on early downs. His tremendous speed and range with Dugger could be a force to defend modern NFL run schemes. I don't think we need all of the 4 DE/LB group to be 250+ pounds who do not have the range. And Uche is a good tackler. Maybe even Carl Davis can make the team idk but he God and Guy are big enough. Barmore is like 310 as well. That 360+ pound guy would be nice to have but would see really limited snap count and so idk if this type of player would be worth a spot.

 

[TheRainMaker]

The Patriots pay big bucks to McCourty, too, as a top FS and ballhawk.

While he’s a good FS and is underrated forcing teams to throw in front of them, he’s never been a “ball hawk” at that position.

Some of the most effective front sevens in the Belichick Era have been comprised of a cluster of guys with 5 - 9 sacks each rather than a couple of 10+ sack players. The only player to reach double digit sacks with the team in the early dynasty era was Vrabel in 2007.

Seymour, Washington/Traylor/Wilfork and Warren were the main reason behind that. They also had a good secondary. But they signed Colvin and Thomas for a reason.

In 2007, the defense was able to tee off on teams who just flat out gave up running the ball by the second quarter.

Often, the defenses that featured double digit sack players were among the weaker of recent memory (TBC with 10 in 2009, Andre Carter and Mark Anderson with 10 each in 2011).

So you’re saying the Patriots are better off not having good pass rushers? They were weak because the supporting cast around them was really bad. They couldn’t stop the run and their secondary was atrocious. Without the amazing signings of Andre Carter and Mark Anderson, just imagine how an already bad defense would’ve been.

This is like the bizarre “Patriots never win with an elite wide receiver so they’ve don’t need one” argument.

Really, the only consistent sack artist we've had was Chandler Jones, and many would argue that those pass rushes suffered from lack of depth (and late season disapearances).

Jones “disappearing” was more on scheme then his ability. Far too many times he was wasted “mush rushing” or even in coverage. He was handcuffed by their conservative D. Despite that, he still was able to get 10+ sacks in a couple years in NE.

It’s rare to see a guy get paid and actually get better as he’s been with the Cardinals. In fact, before his recent injury, he was in a conversation as being the defense of player of the year for a few years.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

I think when you look at last years front 6 the only guy we will see often is L.Guy and Wise. Copeland/Bentley/Simon etc. are for several reasons out or will see limited snaps. I do believe that a Guy Godchaux combo with Judon Wise/KvN/Anderson at Edge with HT at ILB, Dugger second year jump i expect our run defense a lot better. We can keep our DT/DE/LB starters fresh by a better depth with Barmore/Anderson for example could play DT as well on early downs. I hope with a stronger front we can see Uche as an off the ball LB on early downs. His tremendous speed and range with Dugger could be a force to defend modern NFL run schemes. I don't think we need all of the 4 DE/LB group to be 250+ pounds who do not have the range. And Uche is a good tackler. Maybe even Carl Davis can make the team idk but he God and Guy are big enough. Barmore is like 310 as well. That 360+ pound guy would be nice to have but would see really limited snap count and so idk if this type of player would be worth a spot.

Yeah I'm not too pessimistic on inside beef with either Guy, Godcheaux, or Barmore. But two of them are more like 3-4 DEs and 1 is an undersized NT. The LB corps is great. The only missing piece is a true big fat guy. In BB's defense when we have an elite CB1 and a big fat guy, that bodes for an exciting season ahead.

.

 

[patsfanfromoversea]

Yeah I'm not too pessimistic on inside beef with either Guy, Godcheaux, or Barmore. But two of them are more like 3-4 DEs and 1 is an undersized NT. The LB corps is great. The only missing piece is a true big fat guy. In BB's defense when we have an elite CB1 and a big fat guy, that boded for an exciting season ahead.

.

It could be a top 5 defense imo. i hope Gilmore stays, it's too thin at CB. I think the fatty is nice to have in some situations like red zone run defense. I guess when you have guys like HT KvN Judon they can take on O-Linemen. I remember a video about HT's run defense who was insane how he took on the Offensive Linemen against an Outside run. The text above was like "when you have LB like Hightower they can defend the IOL against the run". I can't remember which thread it was unfortunately.

 

[One-If-By-Sea]

and I hope that we win the Super Bowl.

It is fine to have hopes.
================
BTW, when was the last patriot rookie that was a star from Day 1?

Barmore does not have to be a star from Day #1 in 2021. Just be an upgrade over what Butler was in 2020. I think Barmore will do that.