Kraft acknowledges drafting woes, says approach is changing

[Lansdowne]

Seems a bit crowded don’t you think? If anything BB would consolidate some of those picks to some trades for higher slots in this year’s or next year’s drafts.

 

[PScottman]

Bill has not drafted ONE Pro Bowl/All Pro player

You are correct and once again prove your "draft is everything" mantra at the expense of the entirety of team building opportunities.

UDFA - Malcolm Butler - Pro Bowler
Signed from Bengals practice squad - James Develin - Pro Bowler

Not to mention why is "All-Pro and Pro Bowl" the ultimate measuring stick of draft success? Is J.C Jackson a high level five tool player? Damn straight. Never been to a Pro Bowl (likely because he shares the same field with Gilmore) and still a GREAT player acquisition no matter how he was acquired. Joe Thuney is another one. Never had a Pro Bowl, but a definite five tool great player, in fact most of the interior line fit that bill.

Longevity also seems to have no consideration. McCourty - played at a high level a long time. Same with Hightower - both made Pro Bowls some years, others not, but still guys you don't just discard because they didn't get enough popularity votes from the media, fans, and opposing coaches. Yet somehow drafted players in their first or second year - bums, the lot of em - get rid of them before you have a chance to evaluate them in multiple situations and roles to include being surrounded by better players this year.

I don't disagree with your stance regarding free agency as the means to fill the remaining gaps and the lower cost of draftees - both good points, but the difference is one, teams MUST spend up to a certain percentage of the cap so there were going to be higher profile signings this year regardless of draft choice performance, and two judging a draft pick on one or two years is foolish - three is the bellwether timeframe to determine to fish or cut bait.

Age 25 and older is the time where most athletes finally (some do this earlier, others later, and some never) add brain to brawn. They mature enough to not just listen to coaching, but truly employ it in their play - "be quick, but don't hurry" as Coach Wooden said - synapses and quick twitch in unison instead of fighting each other for which one gets to "lead".

 

[TheRainMaker]

The best part is when Bart Scott tells Jeff Saturday how the Colts rosters over the years where not good and Manning disguised those holes. I agree with Scott.

 

[TheRainMaker]

You are correct and once again prove your "draft is everything" mantra at the expense of the entirety of team building opportunities.

Draft isn’t everything, but the main cog in team building.

Not to mention why is "All-Pro and Pro Bowl" the ultimate measuring stick of draft success?

Its not, that’s why I mentioned in my response to get competent to solid starters. There haven’t been enough.

 

[Deus Irae]

The best part is when Bart Scott tells Jeff Saturday how the Colts rosters over the years where not good and Manning disguised those holes. I agree with Scott.

The Colts had stacked offenses, and defenses designed to play with a lead, and designed to really fly on artificial turf. How is that "holes"?

 

[TheRainMaker]

The Colts had stacked offenses, and defenses designed to play with a lead, and designed to really fly on artificial turf. How is that "holes"?

Their rosters where overrated. Aside from Tarik Glenn, Jeff Saturday and a couple others over the years, their O- line was weak and benefitted from Manning’s quick release. RB’s were pedestrian after James. Aside from Freeney, Mathis and Bob Sanders, they had pedestrians surrounding them on D.

 

[TheRainMaker]

FYI I agree with just about all of this, just wanted to add that Joe Thuney was drafted in 2016 and made second-team All-Pro in 2019.

I guess you can throw that name in there even though he’s not on the 1st team. The point is, he’s at least in the conversation.

 

[Deus Irae]

Their rosters where overrated. Aside from Tarik Glenn, Jeff Saturday and a couple others over the years, their O- line was weak and benefitted from Manning’s quick release. RB’s were pedestrian after James. Aside from Freeney, Mathis and Bob Sanders, they had pedestrians surrounding them on D.

OK, so if we just pretend something, in defense of Peyton, it magically becomes true?

 

[moosekill]

This is a well thought out and logical statement. How can anyone disagree?

And you are an ass, but we all knew that already.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

LOL. 40 TDs is declining? 10 TDs in the post-season, the most by any QB is declining? SB MVP is declining?

I'm just going to hang it up and say, no, not a blatant, bold-face headline decline, but you're measuring with a ton of offensive firepower in TB, and you were evaluating from his last year in NE to make the call on letting him go vs. not.

But yeah, he wasn't declining in some horrible obvious way. He's old, and that was taken to mean he's going to decline sooner or later. Had a great season, but there's risk every year when your guy is freakin 43 (42 in his last season here.)

He WAS declining/on the back 9 prior to the Tampa tour. Not off-the-cliff declining, just "It ain't never gonna be 07 again" declining. "You ain't never getting 5200 yards through the air like '11" declining. 3 years of statistical decline, pretty much straight-line, declining. That's what NE had to go by, with every indication that he'd continue along about that course if he stayed in NE until one day when the worst happened and he became... duh duh duhhhh... ordinary. Or worse.

Whether it had become a not-fun grind here, whether it was too much of a battle every year to have somebody he would deign to throw to, he wasn't stinking up the joint, he was just like Superman with minor exposure to non-lethal red kryptonite. Nowhere near "just ordinary," and further from Camtastic... but yes, from '17-'19 was a decline in most every stat.

Comp. %. '17...66.27
Comp. %. '18...65.79
Comp. %. '19...60.85

TDs '17: 32
TDs '18: 29
TDs '19: 24

Yds '17: 4577
Yds '18: 4355
Yds '19: 4057

He IS still in the end part of the career. I mean, I don't think he's got more than another 10 years left at this point. Spoiled Patriots Fan Syndrome: "When he was winning that last Super Bowl for us he didn't even throw a TD!" I mean, 4 TDs against Seattle, 2 against Atlanta but a million yards and the 28-3 comeback, 3 against the iggles and 500+ yards but he er I mean NE lost, then a 0 TD SB against the Rams. Seriously what do I pay him for. What am I gonna do with a guy like that at that point...

10 TDs post-season is good. Helps to have the extra game if you want totals. I don't think he ever had 10 in a previous post-season. Usually he was sedate & steady, by the numbers, in the post-season. Except I think he threw 6 TDs against Denver once? Per game, 2017 was better (8 in 3 games). That season and I think some others he had a better post-season passer rating.

But I mean, no, you can't really say the TB season was a decline. I stand corrected.

What physical attributes showed decline?

1. His arm is still clearly strong. Are you saying it's lost something, despite last year seeming (just saying seeming, not clearly or anything definitive) to refute that notion?
2. His pocket mobility is still clearly as good as anyone in the league. Are you saying it's down a bit?
3. His out of the pocket running has always sucked. Are you saying it's even worse?
4. Is it another, unlisted physical attribute? Is so, what's the decline?

I ask because last year, post-bye week, sure made it seem as if reports of decline were inaccurate. Last year, post-bye week and through the playoffs, Brady was probably the best quarterback in the NFL.

See above.

I mainly retract. When you talk about phys. attributes, try to prove it w/stats and you're back to "yeah who are you throwing 20+ yard passes to in each team." Try to prove it with "eye tests" and it's cherry picking plays. Then there's the Brady difference. If you say "exactly what drug are you doing where you believe his arm strength is better at 43 than 30," it doesn't matter. He'll let you measure his punching strength like in Rocky IV, find it mediocre, then educate you on some bizarre 4 dimensional ninja trick where he can move the air molecules just right and make your heart stop by some next level Guererro **** you're not even thinking of. Now that he's not a Patriot I am open to explanations involving HGH for his wife's much more appealing than Mrs. Manning cosmetic routine, other PEDs, a painting in the attic, voodoo dolls, and drinking the menstrual blood of virgins before he calls Matt Gaetz to pick them up. I have no idea what he's doing but it ain't natural.

I don't remember what this was about now. **** Tom Brady.

Really, all the judgments were about when you can extrapolate really worrisome decline indications. I probably read too many GDTs.

He was in 4 out of 5 SBs in his last 5 years here, winning 3. So even though he had that 1 SB, his 3rd ring in 5 years, where he didn't get a TD... it's probably the case that he wasn't let go for poor performance.

Just expectation of poor performance in the presence of franchise QB resource drain. (And all parties agree, he was demanding nowhere near his market value at that.)

They just hit the wall with stuff they were willing to do to make it happen w/TFB. He was expensive-ish, because you couldn't pay him like a bad QB (the price of a good QB is still a drain, even if it's a bargain when you get the GOAT for that money), but also because you needed to continually hire around him to keep him happy. Tampa had that supporting cast all boxed up and ready for him.

I guess you can always keep pushing hits off into the future... but do you want that on the books hanging over you for say 3, 4, 5 years, for a guy who's in his mid-40s... and any supporting cast you'd need to make his performance in NE like his performance in Tampa, if in fact that individual outcome would not be derailed by intangibles?

I don't remember the original topic now, but I hope this was at least mildly entertaining.

 

[Deus Irae]

I'm just going to hang it up and say, no, not a blatant, bold-face headline decline, but you're measuring with a ton of offensive firepower in TB, and you were evaluating from his last year in NE to make the call on letting him go vs. not.

But yeah, he wasn't declining in some horrible obvious way. He's old, and that was taken to mean he's going to decline sooner or later. Had a great season, but there's risk every year when your guy is freakin 43 (42 in his last season here.)

He WAS declining/on the back 9 prior to the Tampa tour. Not off-the-cliff declining, just "It ain't never gonna be 07 again" declining. "You ain't never getting 5200 yards through the air like '11" declining. 3 years of statistical decline, pretty much straight-line, declining. That's what NE had to go by, with every indication that he'd continue along about that course if he stayed in NE until one day when the worst happened and he became... duh duh duhhhh... ordinary. Or worse.

Whether it had become a not-fun grind here, whether it was too much of a battle every year to have somebody he would deign to throw to, he wasn't stinking up the joint, he was just like Superman with minor exposure to non-lethal red kryptonite. Nowhere near "just ordinary," and further from Camtastic... but yes, from '17-'19 was a decline in most every stat.

Comp. %. '17...66.27
Comp. %. '18...65.79
Comp. %. '19...60.85

TDs '17: 32
TDs '18: 29
TDs '19: 24

Yds '17: 4577
Yds '18: 4355
Yds '19: 4057

He IS still in the end part of the career. I mean, I don't think he's got more than another 10 years left at this point. Spoiled Patriots Fan Syndrome: "When he was winning that last Super Bowl for us he didn't even throw a TD!" I mean, 4 TDs against Seattle, 2 against Atlanta but a million yards and the 28-3 comeback, 3 against the iggles and 500+ yards but he er I mean NE lost, then a 0 TD SB against the Rams. Seriously what do I pay him for. What am I gonna do with a guy like that at that point...

10 TDs post-season is good. Helps to have the extra game if you want totals. I don't think he ever had 10 in a previous post-season. Usually he was sedate & steady, by the numbers, in the post-season. Except I think he threw 6 TDs against Denver once? Per game, 2017 was better (8 in 3 games). That season and I think some others he had a better post-season passer rating.

But I mean, no, you can't really say the TB season was a decline. I stand corrected.


See above.

I mainly retract. When you talk about phys. attributes, try to prove it w/stats and you're back to "yeah who are you throwing 20+ yard passes to in each team." Try to prove it with "eye tests" and it's cherry picking plays. Then there's the Brady difference. If you say "exactly what drug are you doing where you believe his arm strength is better at 43 than 30," it doesn't matter. He'll let you measure his punching strength like in Rocky IV, find it mediocre, then educate you on some bizarre 4 dimensional ninja trick where he can move the air molecules just right and make your heart stop by some next level Guererro **** you're not even thinking of. Now that he's not a Patriot I am open to explanations involving HGH for his wife's much more appealing than Mrs. Manning cosmetic routine, other PEDs, a painting in the attic, voodoo dolls, and drinking the menstrual blood of virgins before he calls Matt Gaetz to pick them up. I have no idea what he's doing but it ain't natural.

I don't remember what this was about now. **** Tom Brady.

Really, all the judgments were about when you can extrapolate really worrisome decline indications. I probably read too many GDTs.

He was in 4 out of 5 SBs in his last 5 years here, winning 3. So even though he had that 1 SB, his 3rd ring in 5 years, where he didn't get a TD... it's probably the case that he wasn't let go for poor performance.

Just expectation of poor performance in the presence of franchise QB resource drain. (And all parties agree, he was demanding nowhere near his market value at that.)

They just hit the wall with stuff they were willing to do to make it happen w/TFB. He was expensive-ish, because you couldn't pay him like a bad QB (the price of a good QB is still a drain, even if it's a bargain when you get the GOAT for that money), but also because you needed to continually hire around him to keep him happy. Tampa had that supporting cast all boxed up and ready for him.

I guess you can always keep pushing hits off into the future... but do you want that on the books hanging over you for say 3, 4, 5 years, for a guy who's in his mid-40s... and any supporting cast you'd need to make his performance in NE like his performance in Tampa, if in fact that individual outcome would not be derailed by intangibles?

I don't remember the original topic now, but I hope this was at least mildly entertaining.

I didn't want you to retract. I was actually hoping you could give me something to really research (holiday weekend = much drudgery and prep work, with periods of mind-numbing waiting in between).

But thanks for the longish answer. Even with the (mainly) retraction, it leaves a few nuggets to work over.

 

[PatsFanInVa]

I didn't want you to retract. I was actually hoping you could give me something to really research (holiday weekend = much drudgery and prep work, with periods of mind-numbing waiting in between).

But thanks for the longish answer. Even with the (mainly) retraction, it leaves a few nuggets to work over.

go ahead and flip sides and do the proving. I couldn't keep a straight face and try to establish what I said, which had to do with phys. skills, beyond the simple point that they're not going to be the same well after your physical peak.

But that means, if we're being rigorous, we need numbers on his raw physical skills, because for membership in the human species, we have only his ability to reproduce with a human mate as supporting data. Either way, his actual performance - what we care about - continues, right now, to be ridiculous.

Brady-keeping vs. Brady-cutting was just a risk management call, I guess. The risk was being on the hook for a wasting asset.

I couldn't prove a phys. skill decline if I tried. I could make cases, but my heart wouldn't be in it. I mean, he did just have another SB season.

Truthfully, the better game the next couple years is going to be "Tom Vs Time" not "Tom vs. BB." TFB fuel = being underestimated. I think he confines himself to dreaming of the next year, because he knows better. But in the back of his mind, I am sure he dreams of a Tampa dynasty to prove that he can dynasty at 42-43-44. That's the other half of the unacknowledged dream, the 3peat.

Of course there's no NE upside to that.

 

[Deus Irae]

Truthfully, the better game the next couple years is going to be "Tom Vs Time" not "Tom vs. BB." TFB fuel = being underestimated. I think he confines himself to dreaming of the next year, because he knows better. But in the back of his mind, I am sure he dreams of a Tampa dynasty to prove that he can dynasty at 42-43-44. That's the other half of the unacknowledged dream, the 3peat.

Of course there's no NE upside to that.

I'm actually looking forward with the hope that Brady plays at least well enough to make "NFC Brady v. Rodgers/Brees/Wilson" a real argument. One SB in one season is a great start, but the future holds the potential to really stick it to multiple fan bases, without even getting into the Patriots/BB/Kraft/father time.

 

[Lansdowne]

I disagree with Bart Scott’s statement about the Colts (in fact I don’t think I ever agree with that knucklehead). Sure the defenses were weak apart from some notable playmakers like Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, and Bob Sanders. But Peyton Manning was always set up for success on the offensive side of the ball, and that’s aside from the fact that most of his games were played indoors.

He inherited Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, and Tarik Glenn, all first rounders. Then they continued to invest in offense early and often. They surrounded Peyton over the years with first round picks of Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, and Anthony Costanzo (along with some other early busts like 2nd rder Jerome Pathon and 1st rders Anthony Gonzalez and Donald Brown). It wasn’t exactly the 2020 Patriots offense that Peyton had around him. The Colts invested big on offense, and his talent was enough to make the best out of the likes of Pierre Garcon, Brandon Stokely, Austin Collie, and Jacob Tamme.

Peyton, much like Brady, was able to mask a lot of his team’s weaknesses. But for Bart to suggest the Colts teams were trash was totally wrong. Bart has always been a hater anyway. Same people who say that Peyton would’ve won more rings with the Colts if he had Belichick’s defenses, aren’t considering what type of career numbers Peyton would be having if he didn’t have Pro Bowl/All-Pro level talent around him that whole time. How would his stats look with Troy Brown, Reche Caldwell, and Deion Branch as his top receivers in those years instead of Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. The what-if game can be played all the way around.

 

[Deus Irae]

I disagree with Bart Scott’s statement about the Colts (in fact I don’t think I ever agree with that knucklehead). Sure the defenses were weak apart from some notable playmakers like Dwight Freeney, Robert Mathis, and Bob Sanders. But Peyton Manning was always set up for success on the offensive side of the ball, and that’s aside from the fact that most of his games were played indoors.

He inherited Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, and Tarik Glenn, all first rounders. Then they continued to invest in offense early and often. They surrounded Peyton over the years with first round picks of Edgerrin James, Reggie Wayne, Dallas Clark, Joseph Addai, and Anthony Costanzo (along with some other early busts like 2nd rder Jerome Pathon and 1st rders Anthony Gonzalez and Donald Brown). It wasn’t exactly the 2020 Patriots offense that Peyton had around him. The Colts invested big on offense, and his talent was enough to make the best out of the likes of Pierre Garcon, Brandon Stokely, Austin Collie, and Jacob Tamme.

Peyton, much like Brady, was able to mask a lot of his team’s weaknesses. But for Bart to suggest the Colts teams were trash was totally wrong. Bart has always been a hater anyway. Same people who say that Peyton would’ve won more rings with the Colts if he had Belichick’s defenses, aren’t considering what type of career numbers Peyton would be having if he didn’t have Pro Bowl/All-Pro level talent around him that whole time. How would his stats look with Troy Brown, Reche Caldwell, and Deion Branch as his top receivers in those years instead of Marvin Harrison and Reggie Wayne. The what-if game can be played all the way around.

It's also not as if there were no other players on the defense, either. Antoine Bethea had a 14 year NFL career, for crying out loud.

 

[DropKickFlutie]

Obviously you missed the point entirely if you're quoting the scouting report from college.

Apparently players never improve, add skillsets, or otherwise once drafted - everything must be judged based on college scouting, draft and draft position alone without any ability to examine players that are not fully developed coming out of college but do develop over their first couple years in the NFL into solid pros over time.

Chung was NOT an accomplished cover DB in his first couple years after college, he was, in fact, let go to seek employ elsewhere (a rare pulled the plug too early vice too late in development mistake by this staff) because he was not. Since his return, he's improved as a cover guy not so much due to athleticism and speed, but instead physicality at the line changing routes and timing, using the defensive scheme, and other veteran and mental understanding skills he simply DID NOT HAVE coming out of college to be a better player later in his career. For many around here Duggar is the same "terrible draft pick" that cant cover (and in their minds never will because that supports their narrow world view) and that's that.

No context, no understanding of a variety of player types: peaking early, late bloomers, never wills, etc. Just "Get rid of the bum and the guy that drafted him too so I can say the same thing about the next guys."

You don't know what you're talking about but keep being smug about your wrong opinions.

Chung was misplayed by Dean Pees. He's ALWAYS been a good box strong safety coming out of college. He was being used as a free safety in his first stint with the Patriots. Stop deflecting now that you can't prove your point that Dugger is just like Chung. Dugger shows promise and as I said the real litmus test if he can be a starting SS is whether he can cover tight ends reliably. Chung was a good box safety misplayed at free safety, he didn't go from zero TE coverage skills to suddenly having them. His biggest issue was being used out of position.

 

[TheRainMaker]

It's also not as if there were no other players on the defense, either. Antoine Bethea had a 14 year NFL career, for crying out loud.

While Manning has had his fair share of blunders, how years could the Colts not stop the run?

He inherited Marshall Faulk, Marvin Harrison, and Tarik Glenn, all first rounders.

While Edgerin James was one of the best backs in the NFL, trading Faulk and drafting James was unnecessary.

 

[Deus Irae]

You don't know what you're talking about but keep being smug about your wrong opinions.

Chung was misplayed by Dean Pees. He's ALWAYS been a good box strong safety coming out of college. He was being used as a free safety in his first stint with the Patriots. Stop deflecting now that you can't prove your point that Dugger is just like Chung. Dugger shows promise and as I said the real litmus test if he can be a starting SS is whether he can cover tight ends reliably. Chung was a good box safety misplayed at free safety, he didn't go from zero TE coverage skills to suddenly having them. His biggest issue was being used put of position.

We're blaming Pees for this?

1. Chung was brought in because Bill Belichick thought he could do the things he was initially called on to do. And a whole lot of people here bought into it, too. Blaming Pees for that is just insane.
2. Chung couldn't cover a drop of water with an entire roll of paper towels in his early years. Sure, part of his improvement was the change in how he was used, but part of it was that he learned to at least hold up a little bit against short range pass catchers.
3. If the problem was Dean Pees, why didn't Chung thrive in Philly?

 

[TheRainMaker]

Chung was NOT an accomplished cover DB in his first couple years after college, he was, in fact, let go to seek employ elsewhere (a rare pulled the plug too early vice too late in development mistake by this staff) because he was not.

Echoing what @DropKickFlutie said, Chung was a in the box SS in College and Bill admitted he made a mistake playing him at FS in his first stint.

Chung was misplayed by Dean Pees.

Bill is to blame for that.

 

[Lansdowne]

It's also not as if there were no other players on the defense, either. Antoine Bethea had a 14 year NFL career, for crying out loud.

Agreed, Bethea is a good example. Cato June was a Pro Bowler for them, Marlin Jackson and Kelvin Hayden made big interceptions in their 2006 SB run. Not a draft pick but the late season acquisition of Booger McFarland that year fixed their run stopping problem.